2019 W Series

[Famine]

While I still think this is a fair enough solution to a bad problem, Pippa Mann isn’t best pleased with the news;

Yesterday I heard that TV dramas with strong female lead characters and women in important and senior roles is actually sexist against women because it doesn't reflect the reality of women and gives them unreasonable images to live up to. One example cited was the Bodyguard, which has a woman as the Home Secretary (since that'd NEVER happen, like our female Prime Minister who used to be Home Secretary).

Today I find out that a woman-only race series designed to increase the visibility of women in motorsports (and encourage girls into STEM) and fund them in order to increase their chances of getting a higher level drive in a major series is sexist against women because it segregates them...

 

[baldgye]

I've not replied to the first part of your post, because you make good points and I stand by some of the points I've made (though I was a bit young for the early 90's of F1 so I've little knowledge).
And I don't think it does this thread justice, just us two bickering

Yeah I too think it's sad that someone thought the best course of action was the split off a series for woman, rather than take that money put it into some scholarship or funding program to develop women drivers.

As for bringing women to the sport, what makes you think it will bring more women than prior? If this a free ticket for women to be able to race without worry of financial burden to them or their families, sure I could see more women drivers. If not, then I doubt it. I think the issue of why we don't see as many women drivers is because of cultural reasons. I mean it may seem crazy to some, but perhaps women aren't flooding in to race cars because they don't want to race cars. By and large racing is a niche on it's own to begin with, and trying to explain racing to a person (no matter the gender) who never grew up around it tends to be hard to do.

Perhaps the FIA should ask Monster Jam how they get so many women to hop into Monster Trucks and smash cars at State Fairgrounds/Colosseums.

I'm not sure how it would compare to scholarship programs, I guess this series is more public facing and so if you where a 5-6 year old girl you've got more chance of seeing this and thinking "wow I could do that, she's cool!" than; "well I guess the economics could work out for me with the right scholarship programs and backing"

That kinda is my thinking. It's why I think the removal of 'grid girls' and F1's clear focus during race weekends of picking out the female mechanics and team members to be a good thing. It shows everyone (including young girls) that they also belong along side the men in motor-sport.
I don't know about a free meal ticket, but if the culture of motor-sports (I know you where being a bit more broader, but the culture of the world is a bit too nebulous) is to exclude girls/women, then it should probably change. If this is part of that change then it can hardly be a bad thing.

 

[nascarfan1400]

Motorsports has always been a genderless sport, not to say women havent been scarce, but they can and have proven themseleves against the men. Hailie Deegan just won a NASCAR K&N race like 2 weeks ago? Katherine Legge has multiple wins in IMSA and can win the championship this year. And IIRC, there was a girl who won in F3 recently? Idk, not a fan of this at all, just feels like Segregation of Sex, and thats not what motorsports is about. While I like that more women are in this sport, I find it almost insulting that people like Carmen Jorda feel like they aren't at a level equal to men, and need their own sport. It's silly, and all I can see this as is a blemish on motorsport diversity. 👎

 

[TheCracker]

No one complained about existing professional racing drivers being discriminated against for not being able to compete in GT Academy, so why complain about a women-only competition?

Surely the money spent on this series would be better spent on investing in women racing drivers in existing series as cash is usually the limiting factor.

That wouldn't create the the publicity and marketing opportunities that this scheme does or will do. If companies are going to invest in it, they'll want maximum exposure. Giving Pippa Mann, or whoever, a few million quids worth of sponsorship just won't yield anywhere near the same amount of coverage.

 

[zeptrans]

Could be a good idea (more visible).
If medias follow, ok, and could attract young girls to kart clubs.

Maybe a proof a woman can drive? Michelle Mouton drove Group B 205 T16 and Audi Quattro ("true male" cars) with results (Italy, Greece, ...).

 

[Leggacy]

Seems a little token to me. Women should be able to compete on a level playing field.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I've not replied to the first part of your post, because you make good points and I stand by some of the points I've made (though I was a bit young for the early 90's of F1 so I've little knowledge).
And I don't think it does this thread justice, just us two bickering

Bickering? I'm just clarifying the reality of the sport, it's a debate/conversation. I don't feel we were at all "bickering". However, since you want to move one that's fine.

I'm not sure how it would compare to scholarship programs, I guess this series is more public facing and so if you where a 5-6 year old girl you've got more chance of seeing this and thinking "wow I could do that, she's cool!" than; "well I guess the economics could work out for me with the right scholarship programs and backing"

This is clearly not garnered toward 5-6 year olds though. Nor does it guarantee a chance at what those potential drivers really want, which is an F1 seat one day. So let me try to help you understand my suggestion in a more clear way. The scholarship part would be those interested in the sport and wanting to build a racing career as a non-driver like STEM. The funding program would be a more academy drivers program, like the RBR/Merc/Ferrari/McLaren young driver programs. However, this could be a women's directive to help compete with those. This would allow exposure of talented drivers who happen to be women moving up the ranks, while proving to the other bigger programs that women can be just as good. This would have the potential of those programs also taking on young women.

That kinda is my thinking. It's why I think the removal of 'grid girls' and F1's clear focus during race weekends of picking out the female mechanics and team members to be a good thing. It shows everyone (including young girls) that they also belong along side the men in motor-sport.
I don't know about a free meal ticket, but if the culture of motor-sports (I know you where being a bit more broader, but the culture of the world is a bit too nebulous) is to exclude girls/women, then it should probably change. If this is part of that change then it can hardly be a bad thing.

I have for the most part disagree with this, I think that true equality can be shaped without manipulating the system and saying that if this or that is done it's a negative for women. Anymore than when you bring out male fashion models. I don't think trying to highlight women on the podium in engineering positions is good or bad. For years women have been in those roles.

I think if you want to garner interests you have to culturally change it and show girls why they are just as capable at driving and non-driving roles and why they should care. Also I'm not talking about the culture of the world, I'm talking about Motorsports only. In a segment where finding fans who like to watch people race machines for laps, compared to Football (soccer) or baseball or basketball and so on is quite hard. It's not wonder that it is hard to find interested girls wanting to dedicate their life to it. You have to create interests at all avenues, this is one way of doing that with this series, but I feel more could be done.

 

[lancia delta hf]

More like talent?

People don't want to hear the truth. Many have let SJW brainwash them into thinking men and women are equal, men and men aren't even equal.

Many men find it hard to obtain funds for a motorsports career because of their gender?

No, that doesn’t happen.

Nonsense. So men find it easy to obtain funding because of their gender? If someone doesn't manage t obtain funding it's because they can't make the the person they're asking believe in them, demonstrate their talent to them, or don't know the right people to ask.

The ceiling at F3 are just words, not proof that with funding wormen would be equal to men. Maybe they're not getting the funding because they've reached "their" ceiling.

Yesterday I heard that TV dramas with strong female lead characters and women in important and senior roles is actually sexist against women because it doesn't reflect the reality of women and gives them unreasonable images to live up to. One example cited was the Bodyguard, which has a woman as the Home Secretary (since that'd NEVER happen, like our female Prime Minister who used to be Home Secretary).

Today I find out that a woman-only race series designed to increase the visibility of women in motorsports (and encourage girls into STEM) and fund them in order to increase their chances of getting a higher level drive in a major series is sexist against women because it segregates them...

This is what happens when people try to rewrite facts i.e men and women are equal, some phsychos even say there is no physical difference between men and women. Men are superior to women at most things, so lets call a spade a spade and shoot down any idiot who claims we are all equal.

One cannot expect an all female series and not get any critism in the current social climate where we're told F1 is sexist, amongst other nonsense. I have no issue with this series, but that wouldn't stop me criticising it due the hypocrisy us men have to endure.

 

[Russ Petersen]

Er, no. According to the article female drivers reach a glass ceiling at Formula 3 due to difficulties of raising money. So it’s a lack of opportunity rather than lack of capability. This series aims to provide an opportunity.

If that's the reason they reach a ceiling it seems doubtful this will change that. Motorsports is about talent to a degree but it's secondary to who can bring the money. I'm too ignorant of motorsports to know if/why a woman would bring less than a man in terms of sponsorships but if that's the case you will have to also fix that for this to go anywhere.

 

[LR-MR-Cole]

They should have the same privilege and chance as men do in other start up racing leagues but they don't or else leagues like this would not exist. I love they idea just kind of pathetic that this has to be an option.

 

[baldgye]

This is clearly not garnered toward 5-6 year olds though.

This is the age at which children start getting ‘interested’ in Karting/racing. I think it’s important to look at their goals, which I agree with in principle;
https://wseries.com/why-is-w-series-necessary/

Your idea is a good one, but what's easier than a racing series? It's popular (people like racing), its exciting and it's easy to get in front of people.

I think if you want to garner interests you have to culturally change it and show girls why they are just as capable at driving and non-driving roles and why they should care. Also I'm not talking about the culture of the world, I'm talking about Motorsports only. In a segment where finding fans who like to watch people race machines for laps, compared to Football (soccer) or baseball or basketball and so on is quite hard. It's not wonder that it is hard to find interested girls wanting to dedicate their life to it. You have to create interests at all avenues, this is one way of doing that with this series, but I feel more could be done.

Yeah I agree, with F1 making it's moves, highlighting women in it's sport and with this series showcasing women drivers you create that change and do so in a public way. I think Motor-racing is THE place that women can compete with men, unlike other sports. This seems like a fair crack at trying to balance the scales at the moment.

hypocrisy us men have to endure.

 

[TheCracker]

One cannot expect an all female series and not get any critism in the current social climate where we're told F1 is sexist, amongst other nonsense. I have no issue with this series, but that wouldn't stop me criticising it due the hypocrisy us men have to endure.

Do you feel the same way about the Ginetta Junior Championship, you know, the one you can only compete in if you're a young (14-17yo) adult?

 

[MatskiMonk]

What I'm seeing here is a lot of people that think if an ideal solution can't be reached straight away, then any proposed intermediate step is objectionable.... which to me seems like a great way of not achieving anything.

 

[eran0004]

So now women aren't in F1 or being funded simply because they're women?

That’s a very dumbed down version of a more complex structure, but yes that’s essentially the problem.

A man doesn't get funding = tough luck privileged guy? A woman doesn't get funding = it's because you're female?

A privilege is something that gives you an advantage. It doesn’t mean that you are guaranteed success. And the fact that a privileged individual doesn’t achieve success does not mean that he/she didn’t have a privilege.

If there was a Hamilton/Vettel esque lady in F1 right now fighting for the championship, can anyone begin to imagine how much money she would bring in?

So you can just take a female driver into F1 and she would automatically fight in the top? It doesn’t work like that, it takes a lot of skill and learning just to get into F1. The problem they identified is that female drivers doesn’t have the opportunity to keep developing as drivers beyond Formula 3. That’s exactly what they want to change with this new series.

So I ask, which current or recent female drivers would anyone say could have been fighting for championship points in F1?

You can ask what Formula 3 driver would be able to fight for the F1 championship and the answer is none. Yet F1 champions typically come from Formula 3 (or similar series), how is that possible? Because they had the opportunity to learn and develop.

I just find it tiring to see around that gender is not really the issue with something but people will always try and make it so.

What research do you base that opinion on?

If funding is the issue for people of both sex, then fix the funding issue for both sexes.

Having a sex and having problems funding your racing career is not the same thing as having problems finding your racing career because of your sex. You’re confusing correlation with causality.

We also have to consider things even if they're biological. If men just so happen to be a bit better at motorsport like they are in other sports, then unfortunately that's the way it is, and we shouldn't try to shoehorn women into it unless they can genuinely compete.

You also need to be able to look at a problem with an open mind. If there’s gender bias in motorsports then it needs to be addressed. Just because you’re tired of gender discussions doesn’t mean that a problem does not exist.

I also don't get the idea that if we shove women in to something, they'll garner a much larger female audience and interests. Wrestling, Soccer et al have both sexes but the majority of interest, viewers and participants remains to be male.

What data do you base that on? Do you have a study showing that efforts to promote female participation in male dominated sports doesn’t have an effect?

Everyone is looking for role models, I’d be surprised if it had no effect what so ever.

 

[mustafur]

I Assure you though if there was an actual Female racer out there with world beating talent and was lacking funds they wouldn't find it hard to get support from Redbull or the like, the problem is the amount of female drivers is soo low the probability of getting high level talent is incredibly low.

That is what a series like this could help with.

 

[Famine]

Motorsports has always been a genderless sport, not to say women havent been scarce, but they can and have proven themseleves against the men.

Since the last woman saw the start lights in an F1 race, just shy of 200 men have started an F1 career (in fact four had their debut race after Lombardi's last start, at Austria in 1976).

Another way of saying that is that in the last 43 years, 99.5% of all F1 debutants have been male. That's a little bit beyond scarce.

Seems a little token to me. Women should be able to compete on a level playing field.

They probably are, but right from the bottom rungs of motorsport, women are underrepresented - and it gets worse the higher you go. It's been 42 years since a woman last started an F1 race (Lelle Lombardi), and in all that time only three more have even had the opportunity to try (Divina Galicia, Desiree Wilson, Giovanna Amati; 7 races, 0 starts - however Wilson did win a race in the British F1 Championship). The last woman to participate in any official F1 session is Susie Wolff, in 2014, 22 years after Amati.


Whether W Series is a solution depends on what your analysis of the problem is - or even if there is one. What W Series will give - and it's free to enter, so it will give - is a high-level, open-wheel race series that gives up to 20 female racing drivers who meet the selection criteria the experience of driving on FIA Grade 1 and 2 circuits around Europe in wings and slicks cars, with television coverage. And it'll give the winner $500,000 (with prize money down to 18th). That means it will give potential sponsors and racing teams a very, very easy way to see the racecraft and speed (and then the public personality in interviews, as well as social media engagement and following) of up to 20 female racing drivers who may have flown under the radar to this point. W Series will make these women marketable, potentially increasing the chances they'll get noticed by higher-level series and attract the funding to pay for the seat.

If your analysis of the problem is that there's too few women in high level motorsports because they don't get the opportunities, they don't get the exposure and they don't get the sponsorship, W Series would seem to be a solution.

There's also a trickle-down. Girls who see exclusively men doing things don't think women can do it. Girls who see mainly men doing things think it will be too hard for women to do it (but some try anyway). Girls who see women doing things think they can do them too. The more women we see in motorsport, the more women there will be in motorsport - not just driving, but engineering, design and mechanics. W Series may encourage more girls into STEM subjects.


If your analysis of the problem is that there's too few women in high level motorsports because sexist boys club for rich old men, this won't be a solution. I'm not sure what would be, apart from some kind of affirmative action that ensured a minimum percentage of women in any given FIA race series. I think the reaction to that would be... apoplexy.

If your analysis of the problem is that women can't drive, the 1970s are thataway.

This is what happens when people try to rewrite facts i.e men and women are equal, some phsychos even say there is no physical difference between men and women. Men are superior to women at most things, so lets call a spade a spade and shoot down any idiot who claims we are all equal.

That seems rather banal and stereotypical. I'd suggest that men tend to be better at some things and women tend to be better at other things, but that there's no reason to assume that a random man is better at something men tend to be better at than a random woman just on that basis.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This is the age at which children start getting ‘interested’ in Karting/racing. I think it’s important to look at their goals, which I agree with in principle;
https://wseries.com/why-is-w-series-necessary/

Your idea is a good one, but what's easier than a racing series? It's popular (people like racing), its exciting and it's easy to get in front of people.

I know what age they are recommended to start at and potentially gain interests, that wasn't the point of what I said. And what my ideas were to come from. I'm talking about an idea that was start from a young age like 5-7 and then go up from there, with backing. A racing series that is for people well beyond that age doesn't help drive from the ground up. Over time sure, it will perhaps change the culture, I am more or less wanting a quicker change.

Yeah I agree, with F1 making it's moves, highlighting women in it's sport and with this series showcasing women drivers you create that change and do so in a public way. I think Motor-racing is THE place that women can compete with men, unlike other sports. This seems like a fair crack at trying to balance the scales at the moment.

I see this as a much more fair way of doing it but also see it as a compromise. You could achieve the same thing by making an academy program for women drivers. That is my question really if a group of people have the money to bring a racing series to life in effort to help establish women drivers why not do it in a more integrated way? It's also is a more lasting method than a women's only F3 series.

Though it's good to note that the drivers will not have to supply their own funding. So it could be seen as a free meal ticket of sorts compared to the more conventional method, the only stipulation is being skilled enough. I could see how there would be backlash from young male drivers that end up like this year's GP2 runner up Albon.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I keep seeing "solutions" for diversity is to divide everybody apart by gender and race/ethnicity and giving them special treatment. There's other ways to have equality without creating other further inequalities.

Such as?

If the solution is to throw the money from this series behind a handful of female drivers already taking part in motorsport, it will help them — and that's about it. Not a bad thing by any means, but it wouldn't result in the same sort of press coverage this would. Press coverage that may potentially have a knock-on effect in terms of female viewership and female interest in other realms of motorsports (be it as drivers or as other parts of the team).

This is shining a light on people that would otherwise fly under the radar. That has happened countless times in the past — @TheCracker has given two examples already in GT Academy and the Ginetta Juniors — so why is this a problem? Who exactly is it hurting?

 

[eran0004]

Nonsense. So men find it easy to obtain funding because of their gender?

No. By that logic the all-female series would just need to reject one female driver from joining and it wouldn’t be discriminatory against men. Sure, no men could join, but there are also cases of women who were unable to join, thus there was no gender discrimination.

So what’s the problem?

The ceiling at F3 are just words, not proof that with funding wormen would be equal to men. Maybe they're not getting the funding because they've reached "their" ceiling.

And you can spend all your day typing in forums and guessing whether or not that might be the case, or you could actually set up an all-female series to test your hypothesis.

Men are superior to women at most things

I rest my case

 

[Auditore]

Honestly if i was a woman racing driver i would feel a bit offended,this feels like a participation trophy "here your little racing category in this little corner"

 

[C-ZETA]

While I still think this is a fair enough solution to a bad problem, Pippa Mann isn’t best pleased with the news;






Look at the crop of drivers who have entered and left F1 since the last time a female raced in F1. Many have bought seats and a good chunk of those don’t belong in an F1 car based on talent... funding is a huge issue in F1 (look at Ocon!).
So to say that only talent has prevented another female driver entering the sport since the 1970’s is ridiculous.

Yeah, Pippa Mann was one of the most vocal regarding what I said earlier. And this is why it could go any number of ways. I'm not massively bothered either way, I mean more motorsport is fine by me if it's quality, but public opinion is so variable I can't even begin to guess how well it'll go.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

That wouldn't create the the publicity and marketing opportunities that this scheme does or will do. If companies are going to invest in it, they'll want maximum exposure. Giving Pippa Mann, or whoever, a few million quids worth of sponsorship just won't yield anywhere near the same amount of coverage.

That's interesting, it didn't stop the like of Patrick in NASCAR, or Silvestro in Supercars...

I find it hard to believe that if a team came out tomorrow in GP2 with a female line up, starting with Calderon and was poised to get someone to F1 in the next five years, that wouldn't create massive publicity. So much so it would have a potential to ripple down the line to F3, F4 and Karts. This would more so happen if in fact one or more of those drivers successfully went on to make it into F1.

This series seems to have the idea that if you can just promote someone from F3 to GP2 with backing, they'll be accepted, and make it to F1 potentially or at least have a "fair shot" at doing so. My issue is this doesn't get at the core stigma that in my eyes shouldn't exist, one that you can see on this thread, women can't compete with men. They can compete with men

 

[baldgye]

I know what age they are recommended to start at and potentially gain interests, that wasn't the point of what I said. And what my ideas were to come from. I'm talking about an idea that was start from a young age like 5-7 and then go up from there, with backing. A racing series that is for people well beyond that age doesn't help drive from the ground up. Over time sure, it will perhaps change the culture, I am more or less wanting a quicker change.

I see this as a much more fair way of doing it but also see it as a compromise. You could achieve the same thing by making an academy program for women drivers. That is my question really if a group of people have the money to bring a racing series to life in effort to help establish women drivers why not do it in a more integrated way? It's also is a more lasting method than a women's only F3 series.

Though it's good to note that the drivers will not have to supply their own funding. So it could be seen as a free meal ticket of sorts compared to the more conventional method, the only stipulation is being skilled enough. I could see how there would be backlash from young male drivers that end up like this year's GP2 runner up Albon.

I don't see why this can't be a step towards that. Showing the world that there is this imbalance and highlighting how good the current women in motor-sports are and that they need help, plus the fan support it could garner and public interest.

 

[baldgye]

Yeah, Pippa Mann was one of the most vocal regarding what I said earlier. And this is why it could go any number of ways. I'm not massively bothered either way, I mean more motorsport is fine by me if it's quality, but public opinion is so variable I can't even begin to guess how well it'll go.

Yeah, I'm not sure how more options = segregation...
I can't imagine the newly crowned British GT Champion Flick Haigh is going to be kicked out of British GT now this new series has 'started'...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't see why this can't be a step towards that. Showing the world that there is this imbalance and highlighting how good the current women in motor-sports are and that they need help, plus the fan support it could garner and public interest.

Showing how good women are against other women...that shows the imbalance? Look I agree this is good if the goal is trying to give women the ability to go racing, and help with backing. This will do both those things. If the idea is to wash away ignorance, that's not going to be achieved. Hopefully it will create a successful driver to help start ridding the stigma of women drivers, but also show that it is about a talented driver not a quota.

 

[TheCracker]

Honestly if i was a woman racing driver i would feel a bit offended,this feels like a participation trophy "here your little racing category in this little corner"

Why? - If you're currently a female racing driver doing your own thing it's not siphoning off money or publicity that was likely to come your way anyway. It's not like it's compulsory for all female racing drivers to take part in this. All it's doing is providing a platform for up and coming female drivers to show that they're worthy of taking seats in higher series. It doesn't take away from what women are currently doing in motorsport or what they have historically done either. It doesn't affect men in the sport in any shape or form as it's a) a whole new series, not a replacement for anything that currently exists, and b) the money invested in it is likely from fresh sources who are attracted by the idea, not investment that was ear marked for other motorsport.

 

[homeforsummer]

Apropos of nothing this subject is a fantastic way of weeding out the internet's most objectionable human beings.

 

[SestoScudo]

Lets be honest if Women raced in F1 they would get demolished just like putting the best womens football team against Christiano Ronaldo, Messi, Zidane, Ineista, Xavi, Scholes, Figo, Beckham and others you will know what will happen next.

 

[baldgye]

Showing how good women are against other women...that shows the imbalance?

My bad, I meant that highlighting that these women are good (by putting them on show, essentially) could help to demonstrate that when in the wider racing world they get lost in the shuffle and don't get the chances men might get?

 

[Famine]

Lets be honest if Women raced in F1 they would get demolished just like putting the best womens football team against Christiano Ronaldo, Messi, Zidane, Ineista, Xavi, Scholes, Figo, Beckham and others you will know what will happen next.

The men would all get sent off for violent conduct and feigning injury?

It's not a sound comparison. Aside from the fact that women have been lower tier champions against men (Jamie Chadwick and Flick Haigh both won British GT, in 2015 and 2018 respectively), we have female football teams to compare to male ones. We don't have female F1 drivers - and that's sort of the point. Perhaps once we get them, we'll be able to draw a comparison.