Advanced physics + somehow worse AI = >:(

[Mr. Apex]

I see a thread that I thought to be dying out could get revived now:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128316
:-P

I think the AI behaves great in the AMG vid in this thread. Didn't expect it to be so great, actually.

 

[Devedander]

I find that most AI cars drive the exact same line. Very strange and unrealistic, but then maybe they get more diverse as I rise in level?

Would be interesting to just not move a few races in a row and see what the ai replay looks like.

 

[RotorHed]

Well it's legal in Formula 1, the very pinnacle of motorsport, you're allowed to make one defensive manouvre per straight on a car behind you, i.e you can move your car directly infront of theirs once if they attempt an overtake but you cannot do it again.

How can I ram a car when it's coming directly behind me?

Blocking is not a legal manoeuvre. Making a "defensive manoeuvre" is legal but not the same thing at all, for starters the defensive move is made well before the overtaking move.

See Schumacher vs Barichello - Schumacher blocked Ruby to the point of driving him into the pit wall in just 1 manoeuvre - that is blocking and is illegal.

What you are describing is simply swerving dangerously into the path of an overtaking car. Since you made the manoeuvre you are the one doing the ramming.... Quite simple really.

Drive like a pro, and the AI will seem much better - from what you've described the AI is doing a reasonable job with your driving.

Rotor.

F1 2010 has some pretty good AI when it comes to cars not hitting you, especially if you lose control and end up facing the wrong way or across the track, cars behind will easily go around you and if they can't they'll stop or slow down until a space is free to pass. Even under heavy early corner braking it's extremely unusual for a car to run into the back of you. The AI in that game isn't perfect by any means but it shows that in the situation it can be done.

This is a great example of why the AI in F1 2010 is poor from a racing perspective. The AI in that game is so cautious it is entirely unrealistic. To overtake, just stick your nose to the Apex inside the back wheel, AI will back off - without fail.

The AI is good at avoiding hitting the driver, true, but that is also not realistic for F1....

To put it another way, if your only goal of AI is to have it avoid hitting you, I suggest just hot lapping with no AI. If you want to race the AI in a somewhat realistic fashion, the AI must be aggressive.

Rotor.

 

[Stephen220378]

Blocking is not a legal manoeuvre. Making a "defensive manoeuvre" is legal but not the same thing at all, for starters the defensive move is made well before the overtaking move.

See Schumacher vs Barichello - Schumacher blocked Ruby to the point of driving him into the pit wall in just 1 manoeuvre - that is blocking and is illegal.

What you are describing is simply swerving dangerously into the path of an overtaking car. Since you made the manoeuvre you are the one doing the ramming.... Quite simple really.

Drive like a pro, and the AI will seem much better - from what you've described the AI is doing a reasonable job with your driving.

Rotor.



This is a great example of why the AI in F1 2010 is poor from a racing perspective. The AI in that game is so cautious it is entirely unrealistic. To overtake, just stick your nose to the Apex inside the back wheel, AI will back off - without fail.

The AI is good at avoiding hitting the driver, true, but that is also not realistic for F1....

To put it another way, if your only goal of AI is to have it avoid hitting you, I suggest just hot lapping with no AI. If you want to race the AI in a somewhat realistic fashion, the AI must be aggressive.

Rotor.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Blocking in one defensive manoeuver is legal in Formula 1 http://f1-grandprix.com/?p=869 plain and simple.

In the case of Schumacher and Barrichello, it may have been worded as blocking but it wasn't blocking but the fact was he attempted to run Rubens off the track rather than block him while he was clearly in front. Had Barrichello's nose cone been behind Schumacher's rear wing the move would have been perfectly legal.

Drive like a pro? Please do enlighten me on the vast amount of experience you've gained in top level motorsport. And no, watching on television and playing driving games on PS3 doesn't count.

If it's so unrealistic then tell me the last time there was a pile up in F1. I seem to recall Abu Dhabi where Schumacher ended up facing the wrong way and the only car to hit him was the Force India of Vitantonio Liuzzi, who incidentally had nowhere else to go, a fact highlighted by the BBC panel of experts.

The "goal" as you put it would be for the AI cars not to unrealistically ram into the back of you on straights when they have plenty time to either brake or avoid, a problem which quite a few people have highlighted so far on this thread and a couple of others. Or maybe not everyone can "drive like a pro" like yourself?

 

[Andil]

Rotor is right - the AI in F1 2010 is about the same as the AI in GRID, which was far too easy to race against - you move in front of another car and the AI lifts off the throttle to avoid hitting you, rather than trying to find another route. In GT5 it's the opposite, and from my experience so far, it's the best AI in a racing game thus far.

In real life racing, you must brake later, take risks, dive up the inside, of people in order to get the place - this is what happens in GT5. The AI takes risks, and sometimes there are moments where you might have to take avoiding action to avoid being hit - deal with it, use your mirrors, see where the AI is and prepare yourself - don't act surprised when the AI knocks you off the circuit, when actually you've turned into the front of the AI's car! Why didn't you turn in later? Why didn't you brake later? There are many ways to avoid it and it's all a part of racing.

I race karts and often the first few laps of a sprint race are a pure test of avoidance skills, nothing else. People jostle for position in real life and it's no different in GT5.

As Rotor says, if you drive "normally" - i.e. try not to bump the AI, don't deliberately swerve in front of cars to try and stop them passing (if they're passing, let them past, and have another go at passing them later round the track, same as you would in real life), then imo you should have no issues. I've had to take avoiding action from AI braking late for a corner, but had no issues so far, feels very real!

 

[Hemily]

if i swerve infront of a AI and it rams me, it's my fault.

the part i'm having trouble with, is the ones reacting late in their swerving, i'm taking the inside corner on Daytona, and suddenly the car i'm passing decides it wants my spot and rams me off the track, hitting my side.

Or the ones ramming you from behind when you brake into a corner.

 

[RedSuinit]

You guys also need to remember that they went for a more "human" feel to the AI, and lets face it, when you race with people (yes, even those that try to be 100% clean) and the heat of the competition is on, bumps and racing incidents happen all of the time. Humans take risks, and try their best to take a position, even if it means a small bump or two. No as for full fledged ramming, that is a different story, those people are just jerks. However, I see MOST of the complaints about AI coming from the TGTTs, where it seems that they created a predetermined line for each individual AI in order to create some sort of moving maze you have to maneuver in order to win.

 

[Jyazz21]

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[Stephen220378]

Rotor is right - the AI in F1 2010 is about the same as the AI in GRID, which was far too easy to race against - you move in front of another car and the AI lifts off the throttle to avoid hitting you, rather than trying to find another route. In GT5 it's the opposite, and from my experience so far, it's the best AI in a racing game thus far.

In real life racing, you must brake later, take risks, dive up the inside, of people in order to get the place - this is what happens in GT5. The AI takes risks, and sometimes there are moments where you might have to take avoiding action to avoid being hit - deal with it, use your mirrors, see where the AI is and prepare yourself - don't act surprised when the AI knocks you off the circuit, when actually you've turned into the front of the AI's car! Why didn't you turn in later? Why didn't you brake later? There are many ways to avoid it and it's all a part of racing.

I race karts and often the first few laps of a sprint race are a pure test of avoidance skills, nothing else. People jostle for position in real life and it's no different in GT5.

As Rotor says, if you drive "normally" - i.e. try not to bump the AI, don't deliberately swerve in front of cars to try and stop them passing (if they're passing, let them past, and have another go at passing them later round the track, same as you would in real life), then imo you should have no issues. I've had to take avoiding action from AI braking late for a corner, but had no issues so far, feels very real!

You do realise that in Formula 1 the slightest bit of contact can end your race fairly quickly. Of course they back off, it's either that or lose your front wing, break the suspension or even a minor thing like a puncture that will lose you a lot of time. It may be unrealistic for grid where these things are unlikely to happen if there's a bit of contact but F1 is completely different and it's been incorporated into the game. Think Lewis Hamilton in Monza.

So what you're implying is let the AI controlled cars do as they please because it's your job to avoid them but don't do what they do because they won't avoid you. That mate, is not racing. A few bumps in a corner I don't mind, being mercilessly rammed into the back of on a straight shows a problem with the AI and I'll point out again, I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Watch one F1 race, any one you choose and point out an example of a driver who just lets another overtake.

 

[slipp3h]

I had this AI pit maneuver happen three times in one race, very annoying.

 

[RedSuinit]

You do realise that in Formula 1 the slightest bit of contact can end your race fairly quickly. Of course they back off, it's either that or lose your front wing, break the suspension or even a minor thing like a puncture that will lose you a lot of time. It may be unrealistic for grid where these things are unlikely to happen if there's a bit of contact but F1 is completely different and it's been incorporated into the game. Think Lewis Hamilton in Monza.

So what you're implying is let the AI controlled cars do as they please because it's your job to avoid them but don't do what they do because they won't avoid you. That mate, is not racing. A few bumps in a corner I don't mind, being mercilessly rammed into the back of on a straight shows a problem with the AI and I'll point out again, I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Watch one F1 race, any one you choose and point out an example of a driver who just lets another overtake.

So do you already have an F1 car in GT5? Have you already done a F1 only race in GT5? If not, how about you stop bringing up F1, since everything we're talking about here has nothing to do with F1 outside of you and Rotor's arguing. Show me a video of an ALL F1 race where the AI are ramming the hell out of you on a straightaway, and I will shut my mouth, until then, stay on topic.

 

[plastik2k10]

The AI seems to be completely oblivious to the player in the corners. They'll try to correct themselves to the racing line regardless of whether you happen to be in the way. I just try to give them as much space as possible to avoid being spun, but generally speaking it hasn't been too problematic anyway, just minor scrapes usually.

Apart from that the only issue is when there are 3 or more cars alongside each other on a straight; the AI cars seem to become panicked by this, and will beging colliding with each other and the player, often squeezing the middle car between them. I've seen some horrific accidents as a result of this; my DB9 ended up on its roof when it happened on the reverse High Speed Ring.

 

[Stephen220378]

So do you already have an F1 car in GT5? Have you already done a F1 only race in GT5? If not, how about you stop bringing up F1, since everything we're talking about here has nothing to do with F1 outside of you and Rotor's arguing. Show me a video of an ALL F1 race where the AI are ramming the hell out of you on a straightaway, and I will shut my mouth, until then, stay on topic.

The reason I'm bringing up F1 is simply because it's the highest level of racing there is and the cars are driven by the best drivers in the world. Therefore if you want to be given the best examples of how to race properly you look to the very top. If you've noticed on this thread we have a few people telling everyone how to drive "like a pro" and "normally" when all they're really doing is making excuses for the AI in GT5 being not so great at times, however their views on driving seem to differ from what 'real' drivers do in races. Also it is on topic because it's comparing real racing with computer controlled AI, which, if I'm not mistaken is what this thread is all about.

 

[Biggles]

Oh dear. All the comments with regard to GT5 seem to be divided between the PD apologists, who desperately want GT5 to be the game it should be, & those, like all the "professional" reviewers, for example, who see the game as it is.

If the AI has improved from Prologue, it's barely discernible. The AI cars still basically follow the racing line & do not react to your presence unless you actually bump them. They do not do bizarre things like pile into each other the way they do in Shift or SCC, but nor do they interact with you in the way they do in FC, F1 CE, or F1 2010. The way the AI cars interact in F1 2010 may not always be completely realistic, but it IS interactive: for example, if you late brake & dive into the inside, they will react to that & attempt to out-throttle you on the exit. This means there is a sense of actually RACING the AI, as opposed to just driving faster than it. There's nothing like that (that I've seen so far) in GT5.

The first console sim I played was FM 1. I remember the races with the AI as being extremely tough, interactive & "unscripted" - every race unfolded in a different way with AI cars doing different things & interacting with you & each other in an unpredictable way. I'm assuming FM2 & FM3 have built on that further. Every objective reviewer has commented on the fact that the GT series has always had drone-like AI. Unfortunately, KY does not seem to take this as a serious criticism, & GT5 does not seem to offer a significant change in this approach. For me, it remains the single most important shortcoming of GT5.

 

[dominic280378]

Great to see open discussion on the pro's and con's of GT5.
The AI issue is definitely valid, I just think so much time went into making the cars look and handle realistically that the actual game play element of the game was forgotten. Over all I can't see where 6 years went developing the game.

 

[JackC8]

Has anyone figured out the AI pattern in this game yet? It seems to have been programmed to try and PIT you in anything but the loosest turns.

It's one thing if I am driving agressively and cut off the AI's line, but I have lost so many races now due to driving a completely unoccupied line only to have the AI not only RAM my rear quarter but continue to just drive right through me...

I feel a bump and as my car starts to go out multiple more bumps and while I try to slow and correct I get pushed in an entire 120 degree spin by the AI driver... OVER AND OVER....

It feels like I not only have to drive the course aggressively but I have to dodge potential PIT manuevers from my blind spot all the time... this combined with the more sensitve physics engine and I am getting very frustrated

Yeah, that's been my experience too. I got a PIT maneuver done on me last night. The AI doesn't seem like it's programmed to recognize the existence of the player's car. It'll swerve right into you if it wants to be where you are. Like somebody else said, it doesn't feel like you're racing against the AI cars - they follow their program like slot cars and you drive around them like the only human on the track.

That sort of AI behavior is a full generation behind what I've seen in other games like F1 2010.

 

[RedSuinit]

Hey Dev, just beat all of the TGTT special events, and YES the AI is VERY scripted here. It's so bad it's to the point that they will do whatever it takes to stay on PD's predetermined line. It's very different from actual races in A-spec and arcade modes. The license tests are the same way as the TGTT so they can be really annoying like that too. As for the guy two or three posts up talking about GT apologists, wait until you reach the professional and extreme races buddy. The AI will make you CRY for MERCY they are so hard to beat (as long as you don't use some ridiculously overpowered car, which is what you are probably doing). They also are very intelligent and have made some of the most excellent passes I have ever seen.

 

[oddtime]

LOL, AI? I don't see any AI. I see cars that follow a completely pre programmed path. You can see that especially in the license overtaking tests. They pass exactly at the same places, spin out their rear at the same places etc. And they don't know anything about racing rules ( inside line etc.) . Compared to other recent racing games this AI is pahetic.

 

[LaBounti]

Yeah, that's been my experience too. I got a PIT maneuver done on me last night. The AI doesn't seem like it's programmed to recognize the existence of the player's car. It'll swerve right into you if it wants to be where you are. Like somebody else said, it doesn't feel like you're racing against the AI cars - they follow their program like slot cars and you drive around them like the only human on the track.

That sort of AI behavior is a full generation behind what I've seen in other games like F1 2010.

The AI is aware of you and other AI drivers. I just did some tests. On Daytona The AI will avoid each other until one makes a mistake thats when it gets chaotic. I slowed down and the car behind me tried to avoid me, the car behind him tried to avoid him, in the end it was a 3 car crash because I did something stupid. I slowed down on a high speed straight in a pack of cars.

The AI is not fixed on rails either, Watching from the back of a pack on Daytona the aI all move away from each other and trying to get into position for a pass. Now this may be a set of "NASCAR AI" for all cars on that track but the pack doesn't stay in the same position cars are moving around in the pack not ramming or pitting, only time contact happens is when one makes a mistake. I'm doing this in a One make race with the GSX-R/4, Go up to 4 cars deep in a turn.

Try it, go to practice with a fast car infinite laps on daytona and one make race. sit behind the pack and just watch them all battle. Its not even close the conga line style AI in GT4 on ovals.

LOL, AI? I don't see any AI. I see cars that follow a completely pre programmed path. You can see that especially in the license overtaking tests. They pass exactly at the same places, spin out their rear at the same places etc. And they don't know anything about racing rules ( inside line etc.) . Compared to other recent racing games this AI is pahetic.

Of course its scripted, its a license test.

 

[panjandrum]

Great to see open discussion on the pro's and con's of GT5.
The AI issue is definitely valid, I just think so much time went into making the cars look and handle realistically that the actual game play element of the game was forgotten. Over all I can't see where 6 years went developing the game.

I just popped in again to post exactly what you said above. I feel very much like I'm driving GT4 with improved graphics and that's it (plus we've traded a lot of great tracks in exhange for those improved graphics on a more limited track selection). GT5 feels very much like a product that should have come out right after the launch of the PS3. If that had happened I would have been happy with it. The AI in particular shows how little PD seems to be looking at the overall experience. It feels like they spent all this time modeling cars and didn't bother to thiink about or update the driving experience in any meaningful way.

All sims have strengths and weaknesses. GT5 certainly has a lot of good points, but these are offset by some problems (like the AI) which are glaringly obvious to anyone who isn't a true "fanboy" (and, for the record, GT4 was my favorite SIM for half a decade, I do love these games. But I steadfastly refuse to be a fanboy for any product. Pretending these flaws don't exist does nothing but tell people that you are unable to look at it objectively).

The good news is that Kaz has announced that we can expect a lot of updates. In my opinion GT5 needs 2 primary things to make it a world-class sim again: 1) An AI which functions properly and makes racing fun rather than just frustrating, and 2) Cockpit views, even if not perfect, for all cars. It simply isn't acceptable in today's market to be unable to drive in cockpit view, even in a limited number of cars (and of course, in GT5, the vast majority of cars have no cockpit view.) This makes the game feel downright ancient.

 

[StogyBear]

One thing that i HATED in GT4 and is still present in GT5 is that the first place car is faster than everybody else. I did the mini cooper race and had a fun time overtaking everybody until i came in second. I had to crash into the first place car to beat him. I feel like you're either too slow in these races or too fast. I have yet to have a fun evenly matched race. Most of the time I beat everybody on the first two corners then try to beat my own lap times.

 

[mattcalligan]

I totally agree about the AI!
I think the AI is quite simply shocking!
And why is it that when they have a bump nothing really happens then they bump you and you spin out going from first place to last,it's very annoying.

 

[RobGT81]

I like the AI, seems pretty good to me. If people drive in single player like they do online im not surprised they find themselves being shunted off, people and the ai cant react quick enough to being cut up and brake tested. Ive also nudged the ai while drafting by accident, perhaps the ai can do the same to you on a straight? Try playing iRacing for a bit, gives a good understanding of how not to drive into someone while overtaking by punishing crap driving.

 

[z06fun]

Have any of you experienced the effect of getting "stuck" to an AI car. I first noticed it on the top gear lotus event. If you are inside of one of them and they turn into your rear quarter panel, they can suck you off the track some how even though they are on your outside. Very strange.

 

[RedSuinit]

For all of those complaining about the AI, do us all a favor before you come in this thread and whine. Go play the game. Get out of the license tests, and the TGTT, and play some actual RACES. The license tests and TGTT series are ALL SCRIPTED for a REASON. They are TESTS, NOT RACES.

 

[Devedander]

I am trying out some A Spec right now but I bought the EK right off and I am blowing the doors off everyone else so there isn't much room to really see what the AI is like...

 

[SavageEvil]

For all of those complaining about the AI, do us all a favor before you come in this thread and whine. Go play the game. Get out of the license tests, and the TGTT, and play some actual RACES. The license tests and TGTT series are ALL SCRIPTED for a REASON. They are TESTS, NOT RACES.

What he said:tup:

I've playing GT5 for 3 days now and for the life of me realize that the AI is a pain in the ass. I play arcade mode on intermediate with everything turn to the most realistic it can be, TCS is either 0 or 1 depending on weather. Driving on big courses like la Sarthe and Nurburgring the AI is tenacious and the cars that end up in the lead is realistically the best car usually the McLaren F1 GT Race Car, or maybe the Chapparal 2J, these guys beat and bang around, they do avoid you at times like where a corner isn't coming up, but should you be to their side on a place where they usually follow the racing line, they will just drive as though you weren't there. On la Sarthe this happens just as you pass the Dunlop Hoop, if you are on the outside of the AI there prepare to get sideswiped right off the road. Follow a realistic line or pay the price it seems the AI routine running at some specific times. I like how the AI doesn't really drive like moronic drones though, I can only wait until I drive the hardest setting on Arcade.

The TGTT special events the AI is scripted heavily and will only deviate to pass you on straights. It seems this was intentionally done to make these events as hard as possible.

Early parts of the game for some reason have no damage on, it's not by your level, but what events you are in. I did the Gran Turismo challenge and it had no tire damage in 5 lap races. So I think it's for the higher level unlock races. I'm on level 15 right now.

 

[Maxitsu]

it happen't for me a few times, but its not a problem here.



Did someone notice a catch-up IA. when you are behind you can catch-up very easy when you are in front the can follow your pace.

 

[RedSuinit]

I am trying out some A Spec right now but I bought the EK right off and I am blowing the doors off everyone else so there isn't much room to really see what the AI is like...

Until you get to the higher level races the AI isn't really fast. Try a comparable car, I love how they have a new feature for A-Spec called "common opponents" (or something like that) so that you can see what types of cars the AI will be using, so that you can pick an appropriate car.

 

[mastorofpuppetz]

The Ai is better then any racer I have played, i think those complaining have themselves convinced before they even played the game. The REAL issue is lack of damage, and the bumper car issue thats been around. Plus an incomplete online and great to bad graphics, shows me after 5 years the game is still rushed, which is mind boggling.