Alfa Z-Cup - Johnnypenso and Carracerptp Z-Cup Co-Champions!

[CC570]

. . . I personally think that staying on somebody's bumper and intimidating him into making a mistake is a better strategy than forcing a pass.

+1. But, staying on someones bumper is not the same as bump drafting. I don't care for the contact. Rubbing isn't racing imo.

 

[Johnnypenso]

When two guys break away like that, my strategy is to safely bump draft a gap with the next following car and then once you're a safe distance ahead, no more bump draft because I don't want to give someone too much pace into a corner and cause an incident on their part once we have enough of a gap. Sometimes I do some "test passes" to see how much momentum or gap I can get for my final shot at passing on the last lap and sometimes I pass just to run in front and make someone else mind their braking points for a while. I try to avoid bump drafting though, once the gap is enough I'm pretty sure no one will catch us.

But yeah, the following car is under no obligation to pass at all. Part of race strategy, positioning your car for a run to the flag. If you get stuck in front and don't want to be, you can always make a slight "mistake" and lose a little pace and most guys will go by you, if only out of instinct. At one of the Monza Cappy races I was following Wardez I believe for a few laps in second. He wasn't very good it seemed in the first chicane...kind of slow which I thought was odd. Until the last lap when he shot through there like a cannonball and gained enough space on that one corner to break the draft and take the victory. Brilliant strategy. 👍

 

[BrandonW77]

+1. But, staying on someones bumper is not the same as bump drafting. I don't care for the contact. Rubbing isn't racing imo.

Generally if a guy is bump drafting you (in this group) he's doing so to help you both out by getting more speed so you can open a gap to the trailing cars. He's not doing it to pressure you or to shove you off the track and most guys do a good job of backing off before the braking point so you can both get through the turn safely. Admittedly, this is a technique most of us learned in the Capp's because it was pretty much a necessity since those cars didn't have enough "umph" to make a proper pass. The Alfa's have a little bit more umph, but still not a ton, so bump drafting is still a useful tool if used properly.

 

[mr_t3z]

Carracer did race cleanly behind me, and when he was bumping he backed off at the corners as to not push me.

This technique always favours the guy behind. What If the lead car just pulls over on the last corner/lap to let the guy behind go, then overtakes him on the straight to win. Is this allowed because its basically the same principle.

Maybe neither car will want to be first and they both stop to a crawl until one accelerates to the line.

 

[carracerptp]

Carracer did race cleanly behind me, and when he was bumping he backed off at the corners as to not push me.

This technique always favours the guy behind. What If the lead car just pulls over on the last corner/lap to let the guy behind go, then overtakes him on the straight to win. Is this allowed because its basically the same principle.

Maybe neither car will want to be first and they both stop to a crawl until one accelerates to the line.

That's what lucky and I did in race 1 at Daytona

Some times you can switch spots by making "mistakes" or just jump out of line under braking and let the guy behind you pass.

The key is to try and shake the guy behind you with speed, normally I would try and beat the trailing driver on corner exits. It's hard is this car but not impossible.
Draft breaking by swerving back and forth almost never works.

 

[BrandonW77]

This technique always favours the guy behind. What If the lead car just pulls over on the last corner/lap to let the guy behind go, then overtakes him on the straight to win. Is this allowed because its basically the same principle.

Maybe neither car will want to be first and they both stop to a crawl until one accelerates to the line.

Yes, that technique is allowed and often used. In the second race last night DSG caught up to me on lap 9, rather than try to hold him off I let him go by with the plan of staying in his draft and setting up a last lap pass. I was able to stay right on his bumper the next 3 laps and he ended up clipping the sand coming out of Ascari on the final lap.....due to my overwhelmingly intimidating pressure. So that's a perfect example of the strategy paying off and a last lap draft pass wasn't necessary. But if he hadn't clipped the sand I was in the perfect position to setup a draft pass on the front straight.

Like I said, this is not like any real world strategy but it is the nature of GT5 with its exaggerated draft. Feel free to pass all you want, but you just make yourself a sitting duck on the next straight. Hanging on somebody's bumper lap after lap actually helps build skill and patience which are both very important in this discipline. Trying to make a pass at every possible opportunity will often result in tears. As long as we have a "super draft effect" in GT5 this will be the prevailing strategy.

Since we're talking real world strategies, weaving back and forth on the straight to break a draft or block your opponent is generally not allowed in any real world racing series and will often result in a penalty. I was watching this race from the lounge and saw you do this lap after lap when WRP was behind you. This is a big no-no in almost every series on this board, I'm not going to take any action over it this time but if I see anybody doing this in future races it will most likely result in a DQ from the race. You get one move, after that you must hold your line until the turn.

 

[Blind829]

...I also learned some new braking techniques last night that made a rather large improvement too. I think I finally learned how to drive...

Care to share?

 

[mr_t3z]

I was watching this race from the lounge and saw you do this lap after lap when WRP was behind you.

Never when he was directly behind me in a passing position.

 

[OwensRacing]

Never when he was directly behind me in a passing position.

To be clear. Coming out of last turn at Monza. Some stick to the left side. Say you do. You can legally swerve far right side and back left before turn 1. Anymore lane changes or swerving is illegal here. You get one move and one move back for turn set up.

I don't recall seeing anything in race 1 that made me think about mentioning it

However B had the best view for race 2

 

[OwensRacing]

If I drop my wheels FFB to say 5. I then can feel this grip loss better. The lower setting allows me to feel more precise.

Even with this info. I still run 7-10. Maybe I should just drop the tough guy tude and drop my FFB to 5/6

What I notice is the FFB drops off if you get out of the rubber or over turn the wheel and start to plow. It obvious trying to tell me adhesion is dropped.

Thought about some more. With the lower setting I find myself with finger tips on the wheel rather then fist gripping it.

The lighter wt using finger tips. With out a doubt will raise you sensory level. Should inhibit better inputs too.

Tonight I'll be at 5 FFB trying it out.

Big PS3 Maintenance Thursday people.

 

[BrandonW77]

Care to share?

In Monday's practice session Owens and TrackBound were chatting about technique and Owens stated that you actually get better braking by only pushing the pedal down to about 60-70% max. If you go to 80-90% you get into the ABS zone and you actually lose a bit of your braking ability and have longer stopping distance (makes sense). So last night I tried this and noticed an incredible difference. Coming to the first chicane I would press the brake pedal to about 50-60% and hold it there......and I would end up going into the corner too slow because there was such better braking! I was able to lengthen my braking point by 50 feet probably, I was normally braking just before the second marker and was able to start braking between the second and third markers with this technique. Hope that makes sense, and hope it helps a little (could take some practice).

Never when he was directly behind me in a passing position.

He was directly behind you, no more than 4 or 5 car lengths which is more than close enough to catch a tow down the long front stretch and try to setup a pass if he desired. Like I said, I'm not taking any action over it this time but want to be sure everyone knows that for the future this is against the rules.

 

[RDAardvark]

Thought about some more. With the lower setting I find myself with finger tips on the wheel rather then fist gripping it.

The lighter wt using finger tips. With out a doubt will raise you sensory level. Should inhibit better inputs too.

Tonight I'll be at 5 FFB trying it out.

Big PS3 Maintenance Thursday people.

I recently upped my FFB to 7 and found it gave me a better feel for the car. Mind you, I use a DFGT so that may be one factor in this.

Thanks for the heads-up on the maintenance: For us in Europe, the maintenance is next Tuesday (7th), between 3am and 4am

 

[OwensRacing]

I recently upped my FFB to 7 and found it gave me a better feel for the car. Mind you, I use a DFGT so that may be one factor in this.

Thanks for the heads-up on the maintenance: For us in Europe, the maintenance is next Tuesday (7th), between 3am and 4am

I think there is a balance number for each person and wheel combo.

Defiantly a worthy place to tune the driver.

 

[bdubclub]

I also learned some new braking techniques last night that made a rather large improvement too. I think I finally learned how to drive.

I can't tell you how many times I have thought this.....

Also great races yesterday fellas, I had nothing for the lead pack at Monza, should be strong these last few rounds though. 👍

 

[mr_t3z]

He was directly behind you, no more than 4 or 5 car lengths which is more than close enough to catch a tow down the long front stretch and try to setup a pass if he desired. Like I said, I'm not taking any action over it this time but want to be sure everyone knows that for the future this is against the rules.

OK.

At least we wont get any draft at Monaco. All about the driver.

 

[dsgerbc]

I was able to stay right on his bumper the next 3 laps and he ended up clipping the sand coming out of Ascari on the final lap.....due to my overwhelmingly intimidating pressure.

That was my failed attempt to feign an error and to entice you into passing on the back stretch
Almost worked but I messed up the last corner.

you actually get better braking by only pushing the pedal down to about 60-70% max. If you go to 80-90% you get into the ABS zone and you actually lose a bit of your braking ability and have longer stopping distance (makes sense). So last night I tried this and noticed an incredible difference. Coming to the first chicane I would press the brake pedal to about 50-60% and hold it there......and I would end up going into the corner too slow because there was such better braking! I was able to lengthen my braking point by 50 feet probably, I was normally braking just before the second marker and was able to start braking between the second and third markers with this technique.

Not sure on this. At the moment I can't apply 60-70 pressure at will so I go with full force. With warm tires I was braking 1-2 car lengths before 100 marker and with a bit worn tires - between 100 and 150, which sounds like the same braking point as you.

Having said that - threshold braking should be quicker and in the past I used to apply about 80% toward the end of the braking zone. Exact number should depend on you BB settings.


Oh, and my FFB is @1

 

[BrandonW77]

OK.

At least we wont get any draft at Monaco. All about the driver.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, hope it didn't come across that way. Just want to make sure everyone knows what's expected in case there was any confusion. I tend to go by F1's rules, most of them line up with the OLR but there is a bit of vagueness on some issues that need clarifying from time to time. And to be fair, the view I had when I was watching the race didn't give me the best perspective and I couldn't tell exactly how far behind you he was, just that he should have been close enough to catch a draft. Whether it was 2 car lengths or 5 car lengths I really couldn't tell due to the camera view.

Not sure on this. At the moment I can't apply 60-70 pressure at will so I go with full force. With warm tires I was braking 1-2 car lengths before 100 marker and with a bit worn tires - between 100 and 150, which sounds like the same braking point as you.

I'm not positive either, all I know is that Trackbound was talking about it Monday and when I tried this technique my braking felt much better and I was able to stop shorter/brake later. I was doing it all night and as I got better at it my lap times dropped. First race my best lap was around a 10.2 but averaging 10.5/10.7, second race my best was 9.6 and I was under 10.0 almost every lap.

 

[Blind829]

In Monday's practice session Owens and TrackBound were chatting about technique and Owens stated that you actually get better braking by only pushing the pedal down to about 60-70% max. If you go to 80-90% you get into the ABS zone and you actually lose a bit of your braking ability and have longer stopping distance (makes sense).

Thanks, I've never heard of that, I'll have to look into it.

I can't tell you how many times I have thought this.....

Haha, same here. Usually when I recheck and time the replay though I determine I ended up being hit by the "speed up" bug. Funny no one mentions that side of the bug, only when they are slowed by it.

 

[mr_t3z]

I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, hope it didn't come across that way.

You haven't its fine. Was just saying OK I understand.

 

[WRP001]

This car with it's bump drafting and slow corner exits is definitely a new 'feel' for me. I've never run a Capp car so not sure what that was like, but these are skills I really never had/used before as I usually run GT500 cars (or in WRS something that is typically 'ill' handling or overpowered for it's tires).

My usual live racing technique, when I'm successful at least, is to get a lead and build a gap and run a race of time trial laps for the entire race -- or someone gaps me early and I try to hang on for dear life or close the gap lap by lap. It becomes a matter of hitting your marks each and every lap and consistently running close to your "hot lap" capability. Sometimes tires or pit strategy come in to play and tire conservation is important. But with this car on these tires, it's a different ball game...

Bump drafting, holding back, applying pressure without risking your own car, racing bumper to bumper for 12 laps in a row, racing in large packs... all different stuff that I'm learning (slowly) and hopefully will improve my overall racing performance. None of that stuff ever comes into play offline in WRS time trials, which is were I "grew up" driving so it's definitely the weakest part of my "game".

Hopefully by the end of the season I will show some improvement and actually get through a race without reverting to my hot lap mentality at some point in the race and destroying my tires or spinning out trying to do too much with the car.

Can't wait for Spa actually... I like these cars better in the enduro races... wish we had a really long race at some point so we could actually bring tire wear into the equation. Would love to run this car for a 90+ minute race at some track where tire wear is high and at least one pit would be required (not mandated). That would be a whole new ball game as far as strategy.

Maybe after the season we can do a non points enduro spot race? Invite the Orca drivers first and fill the other spots with guys from the WRS so we get 12 on track? (A long race with fewer drivers can get boring) . A short quali session and then all racing. 👍

 

[BrandonW77]

My usual live racing technique, when I'm successful at least, is to get a lead and build a gap and run a race of time trial laps for the entire race -- or someone gaps me early and I try to hang on for dear life or close the gap lap by lap. It becomes a matter of hitting your marks each and every lap and consistently running close to your "hot lap" capability.

That's the kind of racing/strategy we will likely see at Monaco. Monza is a different creature, it's almost like Indy Speedway but with chicanes due to the high draft. In higher powered cars it's probably a different story, but these Alfa's are still basically "momentum racers" and you have to take any advantage you can get to keep your overall momentum up. Tapping the brakes or having to lift could knock you out of contention very quickly at a track like Monza. Patience and strategy pay off here, but at Monaco precision and consistency will be what pays off. But in my opinion, "bump drafting, holding back, applying pressure without risking your own car, racing bumper to bumper for 12 laps in a row, racing in large packs" teach us very valuable skills that are required when racing in close quarters with other people. As we saw in the Special Event, these are the skills that prevail.

I'm all for a big "just for fun" Enduro after the season is over......perhaps at the 24h Nordschlife?

 

[WRP001]

That's the kind of racing/strategy we will likely see at Monaco. Monza is a different creature, it's almost like Indy Speedway but with chicanes due to the high draft. In higher powered cars it's probably a different story, but these Alfa's are still basically "momentum racers" and you have to take any advantage you can get to keep your overall momentum up. Tapping the brakes or having to lift could knock you out of contention very quickly at a track like Monza. Patience and strategy pay off here, but at Monaco precision and consistency will be what pays off. But in my opinion, "bump drafting, holding back, applying pressure without risking your own car, racing bumper to bumper for 12 laps in a row, racing in large packs" teach us very valuable skills that are required when racing in close quarters with other people. As we saw in the Special Event, these are the skills that prevail.

I'm all for a big "just for fun" Enduro after the season is over......perhaps at the 24h Nordschlife?

Big problem is things get way too spread out... I suspect even with this car it'll get lonely for a very long race. I really like spa for this kind of race, but given we finish the season with it that's not ideal. Nurb GP/F would be fun to reuse. That's a lot of technical laps to run in a row and will definitely test your tire saving technique... when your tires are shot there you have to pit. We only have the mini races there so it will be a completely different animal.

We can hold off on the discussion until later... don't want to derail all the good monza talk. Just put it in our back pockets for later. We could raise a few track options and put it to a vote (via pole) in a spot race thread or something.

 

[CC570]

. . .

I'm all for a big "just for fun" Enduro after the season is over......perhaps at the 24h Nordschlife?

+1
Make damage heavy and limit to comfort tires. This car's powerband is a better match to comfort softs than it is to sport tires imo. Much more involving to drive. Damage on high gives the race more of an endurance/survival feel esp. with time and weather change.

 

[carracerptp]

I'm all for a big "just for fun" Enduro after the season is over......perhaps at the 24h Nordschlife?

I would love that 👍

 

[WRP001]

+1
Make damage heavy and limit to comfort tires. This car's powerband is a better match to comfort softs than it is to sport tires imo. Much more involving to drive. Damage on high gives the race more of an endurance/survival feel esp. with time and weather change.

Damage on high at Nurb 24 hr is a bit too real. Limping around for up to 15 minutes to get back to the pits and trying to stay out of the way is "real", but I don't want that real.

We can put stuff to a vote once we get closer and see what the majority wants... Or our fearless leader Brandon can dictate as he's the man in charge here. I think he said that anyone with a triple screen gets pole and the other drivers fight it out for the remaining spots.

 

[bdubclub]

With all of this discussion on braking, how many left foot brake? Just curious as I found if you start to apply the brake while simultaneously lifting off the throttle, it should decrease your braking distance. Try it if you haven't, seems the car settles better when doing this technique. Also probably the number one thing that has helped me get faster is "less brake is almost always more". Easier on the initial pressure, then slowly increase until you are approaching your turn in point, then slowly decrease. Its a fine line, but should help conserve tires with no effect on stopping distance.

 

[Johnnypenso]

With all of this discussion on braking, how many left foot brake? Just curious as I found if you start to apply the brake while simultaneously lifting off the throttle, it should decrease your braking distance. Try it if you haven't, seems the car settles better when doing this technique. Also probably the number one thing that has helped me get faster is "less brake is almost always more". Easier on the initial pressure, then slowly increase until you are approaching your turn in point, then slowly decrease. Its a fine line, but should help conserve tires with no effect on stopping distance.

Haha, until recently I thought everyone used left foot braking. Came natural to me after a few years in karts I just assumed everyone did. My braking technique is actually the opposite of yours. I brake hard at first at higher speeds and then ease off the pedal to de-activate the ABS and allow the wheels to rotate more freely. But it's also true that I rarely use full braking as in the past I found I made the most mistakes when braking hardest so I got used to braking slightly early, making a smooth line through the corner to maximize exit speed. Having instant access to both throttle and brake really helps to keep the car balanced as well. If you don't left foot brake, you should try it, it makes a world of difference.

I noticed in the Fuji Event in particular, probably because we were running so close together for so long, that on most corners I was slightly slower in and slightly faster out. You may lose a tenth or two through the corner, but you may gain three or four tenths on the following straight. Anytime I'm running with slower drivers the thing I notice most often is that they go too deep in the corners, and their exit speed is slow. I think most people would be faster if they adopted the "slow in fast out" motto. Also, I took to heart something Jackie Stewart said which was, "Never put your foot into the throttle on corner exit until you're sure you never have to lift"

 

[Hydro]

Haha, until recently I thought everyone used left foot braking. Came natural to me after a few years in karts I just assumed everyone did. My braking technique is actually the opposite of yours. I brake hard at first at higher speeds and then ease off the pedal to de-activate the ABS and allow the wheels to rotate more freely. But it's also true that I rarely use full braking as in the past I found I made the most mistakes when braking hardest so I got used to braking slightly early, making a smooth line through the corner to maximize exit speed. Having instant access to both throttle and brake really helps to keep the car balanced as well. If you don't left foot brake, you should try it, it makes a world of difference.

I noticed in the Fuji Event in particular, probably because we were running so close together for so long, that on most corners I was slightly slower in and slightly faster out. You may lose a tenth or two through the corner, but you may gain three or four tenths on the following straight. Anytime I'm running with slower drivers the thing I notice most often is that they go too deep in the corners, and their exit speed is slow. I think most people would be faster if they adopted the "slow in fast out" motto. Also, I took to heart something Jackie Stewart said which was, "Never put your foot into the throttle on corner exit until you're sure you never have to lift"

I thought everyone used left foot braking as well. I sure do, but like you, it was a technique learned in RL racing that just stuck.

You are bang on about the Fuji race. That was a great race for earlier braking in order to get out of the turn faster. Also, using left foot braking allowed me to control the oversteer in the hairpin and dunlop by using both pedals at the same time.
I had noticed too that in both races that I was braking earlier than everyone I was battling with.

 

[CC570]

re. left foot braking, what about the clutch?

 

[bdubclub]

Haha, until recently I thought everyone used left foot braking. Came natural to me after a few years in karts I just assumed everyone did. My braking technique is actually the opposite of yours. I brake hard at first at higher speeds and then ease off the pedal to de-activate the ABS and allow the wheels to rotate more freely. But it's also true that I rarely use full braking as in the past I found I made the most mistakes when braking hardest so I got used to braking slightly early, making a smooth line through the corner to maximize exit speed. Having instant access to both throttle and brake really helps to keep the car balanced as well. If you don't left foot brake, you should try it, it makes a world of difference.

I noticed in the Fuji Event in particular, probably because we were running so close together for so long, that on most corners I was slightly slower in and slightly faster out. You may lose a tenth or two through the corner, but you may gain three or four tenths on the following straight. Anytime I'm running with slower drivers the thing I notice most often is that they go too deep in the corners, and their exit speed is slow. I think most people would be faster if they adopted the "slow in fast out" motto. Also, I took to heart something Jackie Stewart said which was, "Never put your foot into the throttle on corner exit until you're sure you never have to lift"

Sorry I may have not explained myself right, I do use a lot of brake early then ease off as I slow down. I was just trying to explain that if you apply brake easier at first(rather than just mashing) your distance will shorten. The Fuji race was decent for me, its just I was down 10hp at the end of the second race due to lack of an oil change. Too bad as I really think I could have done quite a bit better if this wasn't the case.
Also love the Jackie Stewart quote, that makes a lot of sense.