Buttkicker worth it?

[jswilli1]

Ok here are my findings for the In-game audio fields for GT5P. I have also included my AV receiver settings along with GT5P audio settings. My 5.1 home theater setup consists of: Sony KDF-55WF655 LCD Projection
Onkyo TX-SR805
PS3 (60GB{500GB})
Bose AM-7/AM-5, VCS-10, Klipsch KSW-10 powered Subwoofer
ButtKicker BKA300 Wireless
Monster HTS3500MKII Stage 3 power

GT5P audio settings w/small theater:

Onkyo 805 receiver settings using Audyssey EQ Mic auto adjustment.

Changed to -10db on the Subwoofer currently.

Since I use the Audyssey EQ w/Mic to automatically set up my speakers there is no small/large speaker settings to select. There is a full band setting for front/rear speakers which is the equivalent to large speaker setting and allows low frequency bass to reproduce from those speakers. Since I use Bose acoustimass speakers the bass modules have built in passive crossovers to route the high frequencies to the cubes and the mid/low frequencies to the bass module. I DO NOT use any soundfields on my Onkyo only Multichannel as I let the PS3 decode any codec from a movie or game although the receiver is THX certified. I also want to add that my volume (Absolute) is ~55 to 60 as the amplitude greatly effects the output to your speakers, sub, and ButtKicker.

GT5P in game sound fields:
Living room setting: Seems to pack the most punch and is most likely used where a home theater is not being used. It seems to have alot of gain (least compression?) and everything seems to be very loud.

Small Theater setting: My preferred and current setting Seems to pack a punch similiar to the living room setting but according to the setup menu is for advanced home theater setups.

Large Theater setting: This setting is used most likely if you have full range speakers in your Home Theater setup and not small or cube speakers. When Large Theater was selected in my current setup it acted like a Midnight Mode soundfield where sound volume was cut nearly in half of what the other two settings were producing.

The ButtKicker BKA300 amp preset. I had to utilize the preset soundfield for GAME while playing GT5P due to the wind noise generated while racing was really giving the Transducer a workout. The GAME preset creates a -6db gain to the transducer from the amp, In addition to the -6db I decreased the intensity another -5db to dial out the wind noise. This caused the red/white and brick raised curbs in the corners to become more pronounced when driving on them. Hitting the walls and other cars (vice versa) had also become much more pronounced. I have a few more tweaks to get it exactly where I want to and I will update those in the above settings on the AV receiver. I have been running the Subwoofer at a -12db gain but have been manually changing it to about -10.5 while playing FPS games. I have made the change currently to -10db as the transducer is currently not bottoming out while watching movies or playing games. For GT5P in particular to get where I need to be while driving, changing the subwoofer gain to ~-8db on the Onkyo should get me where I want to be when playing.

 

[Mr Latte]

Well done on the experimentation!

So it seems are we in agreement that the smallest room setting does have a boost and when used on more powerfull AV systems can give a louder sound.
I still think the room settings are nothing more than when playing a video or music and the PS3 has the +db option which incidently sounds bad with too much boost.

You pointed out that the smallest setting is maybe too much and looking at you settings on your AMP I think your getting that because of your speaker set volumes. Remember earlier on I mentioned I reduced my speaker volume settings much more to avoid the general audio being too loud or sound a little overdone but this then still maintained a good boost for the subwoofer/BK.

The main thing is with tweaking you can get these devices to perform well with games. The biggest issue is that the different models will require different tunning and settings also depending on the hardware they are used with and the users preference.

The biggest issue with the BK models is that you get it playing sweet with GT but then find on a different game you have to start tweaking again. I think that was the most annoying aspect of these and why in the end I went down the route of adding an equiliser to give greater and easier control of various frequencies too without having to change the BK or my AV menu settings.

 

[jswilli1]

Well done on the experimentation!

So it seems are we in agreement that the smallest room setting does have a boost and when used on more powerfull AV systems can give a louder sound.
I still think the room settings are nothing more than when playing a video or music and the PS3 has the +db option which incidently sounds bad with too much boost.

You pointed out that the smallest setting is maybe too much and looking at you settings on your AMP I think your getting that because of your speaker set volumes. Remember earlier on I mentioned I reduced my speaker volume settings much more to avoid the general audio being too loud or sound a little overdone but this then still maintained a good boost for the subwoofer/BK.

The main thing is with tweaking you can get these devices to perform well with games. The biggest issue is that the different models will require different tunning and settings also depending on the hardware they are used with and the users preference.

The biggest issue with the BK models is that you get it playing sweet with GT but then find on a different game you have to start tweaking again. I think that was the most annoying aspect of these and why in the end I went down the route of adding an equiliser to give greater and easier control of various frequencies too without having to change the BK or my AV menu settings.

The one thing I forgot to add was my what my volume level was on my Onkyo. I generally play my games at ~55 to 61. "Cranking" up the volume greatly changes the output to the speakers as well as the ButtKicker. Having the presets on the ButtKicker BKA300 amp helps fine tune for each game title played. I have to agree that GT5P can be tricky to adjust while other titles seem to be relatively easy. I hope that GT5 has better audio adjustments than what we currently have with GT5P.

 

[crazedmodder]

So it seems are we in agreement that the smallest room setting does have a boost and when used on more powerfull AV systems can give a louder sound.
I still think the room settings are nothing more than when playing a video or music and the PS3 has the +db option which incidently sounds bad with too much boost.

It's very possible but I don't know if they would make something redundant like that. Obviously I don't know 100% whether they would do something like that but wouldn't a gain setting like that just be redundant considering we have all the volume settings anyways (and we can put the over 100)?

The description is so weird though. At one point it sounds like it just affects the volume level and then it sounds like it affects the dynamic range or maybe just the volume level of individual sound effects (like engine noise vs wind noise vs music noise).

Anyways I tried out the settings and yes the larger you go the lower the volume level gets however I did a test with the Ferrari F2007 around Daytona in cockpit view. I trust what my brother says about audio and I let him hear "Living Room" and "Large Theater" settings and he says that "Large Theater" is much more compressed. Listening closely I would say he's right, honestly IMO "Large Theater" doesn't sound as good as "Living Room". The engine sounds better on "Living Room" when stopped and revving it.

So it's backwards! Now I wonder why the heck PD would think that a "Living Room" setup should have a better dynamic range than a "Large Theater" ... Oh well thought for a different thread. Of course there may be other settings at play other than compression, things like gain, eq, sounds levels of effects, etc that might be changing.

this is craziness anyways I like "Living Room" the best.

The other weird thing about "Large Theater" is that the music is almost not audible at all.

My in-game audio levels are 100 for all sound effects and 90 for all music.

The main thing is with tweaking you can get these devices to perform well with games. The biggest issue is that the different models will require different tunning and settings also depending on the hardware they are used with and the users preference.

The biggest issue with the BK models is that you get it playing sweet with GT but then find on a different game you have to start tweaking again. I think that was the most annoying aspect of these and why in the end I went down the route of adding an equiliser to give greater and easier control of various frequencies too without having to change the BK or my AV menu settings.

I have the same problem with my sub and going from movies to games. I wish there were calibrated audio standards similar to color/brightness calibration for displays that developers could adhere to so no matter what game we play or movie we watch it would always be the way the devs/producers wanted us to hear it.

Anyways for those of you looking for EQs and stuff I've heard good things about the Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro. It can save presets and has pretty good settings. People over at the avs forum like to use it as an inexpensive sub-eq.

--edit--
On second thought, I can't hear an F40 in bumper cam with Living Room plus I get some weird pops and delayed sounds when crashing etc so back to Large Theater I go. Have yet to try Small Theater.

--double edit-
Something else I noticed. On "Large Theater" the LED on my subwoofer's amplifier (it indicates a signal) only lit up when there was wind noise whereas in "Living Room" it lit up a lot more. So for you people with Buttkickers Mr.Latte is right, the "Large Theater" setting will not work well at all.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay so I want imagining things then...

I got my 2 extra mini LFE's delivered this week but they are quite small compared to the BKA 300 model but still rated upto 250watt.
Id expect a "Gamer" model has to be driven quite hard to get a decent strength from it with its reduced power range. Still a great way to experience these products at a nice price point.

 

[jswilli1]

Okay so I want imagining things then...

I got my 2 extra mini LFE's delivered this week but they are quite small compared to the BKA 300 model but still rated upto 250watt.
Id expect a "Gamer" model has to be driven quite hard to get a decent strength from it with its reduced power range. Still a great way to experience these products at a nice price point.

I have thought about buying the Gamer 2 for my second PS3 since we use an office chair in that room. The BKA300 Advance Transducer in my opinion is more than enough for my cockpit. I just waiting for for the dang chair to vibrate apart!

 

[stega]

Ok, I am running 2 BK gamers 2's and I have been quite happy with them. I use them in conjunction with my Yamaha YSP4000 Sound-bar and have had great success and hooking them to the sub output this is split 3 ways. Is this the best way for me to have them hooked up?? seems so from my light testing.

Is it worth it for me to get a LFE or an LFE-mini instead of the two gamer units??? Or will it not really make much of a difference?

Also does anyone have a LFE-mini?? what is the difference between the LFE-mini and the regular LFE or a BKA 300???

Also how do the rubber isolators work?? on say an obutto cockpit??
Could I even use them on something like that???

 

[crazedmodder]

Ok, I am running 2 BK gamers 2's and I have been quite happy with them. I use them in conjunction with my Yamaha YSP4000 Sound-bar and have had great success and hooking them to the sub output this is split 3 ways. Is this the best way for me to have them hooked up?? seems so from my light testing.

Is it worth it for me to get a LFE or an LFE-mini instead of the two gamer units??? Or will it not really make much of a difference?

Also does anyone have a LFE-mini?? what is the difference between the LFE-mini and the regular LFE or a BKA 300???

Also how do the rubber isolators work?? on say an obutto cockpit??
Could I even use them on something like that???

Well if you're happy with your 2 Gamer2s then I don't recommend spending more money but if you're looking for more kick you can upgrade to the mini-LFE or the BK4-4 (regular Buttkicker). I don't even know if they feel that much more powerful versus the Gamer2 never mind 2 Gamer2s. The BKA 300 is a 300W amplifier for the BK4-4 but I believe when most people mention BKA 300 they are talking about the kit with both the amplifier and the BK4-4.

Anyways the specs are:
mini-LFE: 50-250W @ 4ohms
BK4-4: 75-400W @ 4ohms
Gamer2: 75-400W @ 2ohms (amplifier in the kit produces 90W)

So the mini-LFE isn't as powerful as the others and the Gamer2 is actually pretty powerful (wattage wise). However the Gamer2 amp only produces 90W and you'll be hard pressed to find an inexpensive 2ohms amplifier.

I would skip the mini-LFE (almost $229 for amplifier and Buttkicker) since the BK4-4 and BKA 300 are on sale (almost $259 for amplifier and Buttkicker without wireless). Although you can drive 2 mini-LFEs with one of their amplifiers.

 

[stega]

So what exactly is the difference between 2ohms and 4ohms in this case?? Can it play more lows?? or something?

Also how do the rubber isolators work?? on say an obutto cockpit??
Could I even use them on something like that???

 

[jswilli1]

So what exactly is the difference between 2ohms and 4ohms in this case?? Can it play more lows?? or something?

Also how do the rubber isolators work?? on say an obutto cockpit??
Could I even use them on something like that???

The rubber isolaters basically would isolate the Obutto Cockpit from the floor. You would place them under 4 "points" or 5 under the cockpit. It makes "feeling' the transducer more efficient by keeping the vibration in the cockpit and not losing any vibration to the the floor.

The 2ohm and 4ohm rating is the resistance rating of the transducer hence ohm. Speakers have resistance ratings of 2ohm, 4ohm, 8ohm, and even 16ohm, since the transducer is in a sense a type of speaker or like any electronic component will have a resistance rating. Due to the compact size of the gamer2 transducer they may have engineered it for a 2ohm impedence to get more kick out of it using a less powerful amp hence the 90W amp. The Mini-LFE and BK4-4 Advanced LFE having a 4ohm impedence utilize larger amps with more output power.

I have not experienced the Gamer2 yet, but I can tell you the mid-sized BK4-4 Advanced Transducer that comes with the BKA300 is more than enough for any game chair or racing cockpit. It is perfect for a large couch and I have been playing BBC2 for the past few months with it attached to the couch. Last week I moved it to my racing cockpit and WOW I forgot how powerfull that LFE was!

 

[Mr Latte]

Ok, I am running 2 BK gamers 2's and I have been quite happy with them. I use them in conjunction with my Yamaha YSP4000 Sound-bar and have had great success and hooking them to the sub output this is split 3 ways. Is this the best way for me to have them hooked up?? seems so from my light testing.

Is it worth it for me to get a LFE or an LFE-mini instead of the two gamer units??? Or will it not really make much of a difference?

Also does anyone have a LFE-mini?? what is the difference between the LFE-mini and the regular LFE or a BKA 300???

Also how do the rubber isolators work?? on say an obutto cockpit??
Could I even use them on something like that???

Where do you have these placed on your cockpit/frame or sofa/chair?
Show us a photo mate....

For instance if you have them both in the seating, try experimenting putting one to the seating and the other to the front end for pedals or wheel sections.
My own experimentation is not to just get the sensation through the seat but also to create almost a surround effect from multiple units.
Thing is too much strength or effect in one area can become annoying but some people run at a high volume to get the roll off effect travelling further.
Two units can produce a better effect giving a wider spread or fill but with both units at reduced volume. Its like putting one subwoofer in a room and comparing to having two.

Can you do me a favour and measure the dimensions of the gamer transducer part. Im curious to its size. I ask this as you have to also not take into account the power ratings but size of these units.
Just like speakers if you had small speakers and to get the desired volume from them you perhaps have to have them quite loud and exceeding their optimium volume. So distortion effects the sound at high volumes and the speaker cones are being stressed.

These transducers are likely no different. Optimium performance is probably at the 80% or so actual volume range and by running a unit within that valume it wont have a bottoming out effects or start to feel uncomfortable as the unit is at its performance limits on full volume. A larger transducer with more power can then have a better effect with more punch well within its limits. If you find your running the gammer models near max volume then well id recommend to use a BKA 300 model for the seating and one or both gamer unit(s) for pedals/wheel sections.

I will take a photo later in my cockpit thread to show the size difference in the Mini LFE models to the BKA 300 unit. Its approximately 2x the size even though the wattage ratings are similar.

 

[stega]

Just woke up here but I will get some measurements and a pic in a bit...Currently I have both butt-kickers hooked under the front part under my seat of where I sit, I have one on each side of my obutto. And yes I am running them at almost full volume but I have the frequency cut offs and all that setup too, so I do not experience distorted sound/heat/bad shaking except for when I start a race and there are like 7 cars next to me all revving engines.

I think I may purchase a bka300 as suggested and turn down the gamer 2's to a lower volume and change placement for better tactile feeling. Thanks for the advice.. How would I hook them all up if I got a bka300 to add Just split the sub output 1 more time???

Sorry about how dark the pics are... Can't do much about that no flash on my mac book lol.
As of right now I find the placement works very nice providing enough shake for the whole cockpit, but again I am running at full volume and my sub volume is turned way up too.

Anyone have a coupon code for the bka300???

 

[crazedmodder]

So what exactly is the difference between 2ohms and 4ohms in this case?? Can it play more lows?? or something?

90W @ 2 ohms should not technically sound/feel any different that 90W @ 4 ohms. However amplifiers usually give more power at the lowest ohm rating it can accomplish.

For example my amplifier is rated as such:

1 kHz @ 0.1% THD (Total Harmonic Distortion), both channels driven
8 ohms per channel	500W
4 ohms per channel	750W
2 ohms per channel	1200W

But of course it depends if your amplifier can handle the lower ohm rating. Most home theater receivers will not do less than 8 ohms.

Wattage=(Amperage^2)(Resistance)
So decreasing resistance means the amplifier will have to produce a higher amperage to obtain the same power output. That makes it run hotter and requires more expensive mosfets to handle the higher amperage.

Anyways, be sure to post a lot about the BKA 300 kit when you get it, I'm looking at getting the BK4-4 myself (already have an amplifier) but I have to wait to see if money permits.

As for hooking it up, do the Gamer2 amplifiers have an RCA output? The BKA300 has one it's technically a splitter inside the unit so you just grab an RCA cable and hook the RCA output of one to the input of another. If you have a 3 way splitter already you could try that. If not you can just use the bka 300 first with its RCA output and do:

home theater receiver -> bka 300 -> 2 way splitter |-> gamer2 amp1
                                                   |-> gamer2 amp2

That way you wouldn't need to get another splitter.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah you can daisy chain them from a splitter and as mentioned the BKA 300 amp has a pass through for a user to also connect a subwoofer. RCA splitters are all you need.

Still waiting on the measurements on the Gamer Transducers if you can measure them as they look tiny in comparison to the BKA 300.

Even with dual sets their should be quite a difference in 2x 90 watt compared to 1x300 just like two cheaper/ inferior subwoofers wouldnt amount to the quality/performance a more expensive higher quality unit.
So perhaps dont just take into account wattage ratings for performance. Id personally say you will be well impressed if getting the BKA 300 and use the other units elsewhere or sell them towards the BKA 300.

Heres a couple of pics showing the BKA on its platform compared to dual Mini LFE models. Ive not as yet properly compared them.

 

[stega]

Put a ruler up to it real quick it looks to be 3'' all round and 2'' tall.
I just ordered a bka300, and will look to place that under the back of my cockpit and position the 2 gamers elsewhere at a lower volume.

 

[Mr Latte]

Put a ruler up to it real quick it looks to be 3'' all round and 2'' tall.
I just ordered a bka300, and will look to place that under the back of my cockpit and position the 2 gamers elsewhere at a lower volume.

Great look forward to your thoughts on it all.
Gonna be a nice rig you have with all the improvements coming you referred to in the video.

btw lets have more comments with the "Perfect Pedal" in your thread for that. Oh and while I have your attention could you try the Turbo S in FM3 with it using the G25 adapter.

 

[jswilli1]

WOW! I didn't realize how HUGE of a difference it was between the transducers. Thanks for the visual.👍

 

[Mr Latte]

Well heres approx sizes:

Gamer Model
8cm x 5cm

Mini LFE
8cm x 7cm

BKA 300
10cm x 10cm

 

[stega]

Put a ruler up to it real quick it looks to be 3'' all round and 2'' tall.
I just ordered a bka300, and will look to place that under the back of my cockpit and position the 2 gamers elsewhere at a lower volume.

So that base that you mount the transducer to will that throw my cockpit off balance a bit??? or that's what the isolators fix???

 

[jswilli1]

So that base that you mount the transducer to will that throw my cockpit off balance a bit??? or that's what the isolators fix???

That Base along with the isolators should level out your cockpit.

 

[crazedmodder]

Has anyone bolted the mini-LFE or the BK Advance to their cockpit? Basically without the little plate thing?

 

[jswilli1]

Has anyone bolted the mini-LFE or the BK Advance to their cockpit? Basically without the little plate thing?

I use the BK Advance on the plate since I move it from my cockpit to my couch. I have contemplated bolting it to my cockpit and buying a second BKA Advance and leaving that one on the couch. I have noticed that the BKA Advance when on the plate under my cockpit tends to bounce and rattle a bit. I have a carpeted floor with another carpet ontop (see pic in signature). I honestly think it would be better to bolt the transducer to the cockpit and center it under the chair. I may have to try it and see how much of a difference it is.

 

[stega]

I use the BK Advance on the plate since I move it from my cockpit to my couch. I have contemplated bolting it to my cockpit and buying a second BKA Advance and leaving that one on the couch. I have noticed that the BKA Advance when on the plate under my cockpit tends to bounce and rattle a bit. I have a carpeted floor with another carpet ontop (see pic in signature). I honestly think it would be better to bolt the transducer to the cockpit and center it under the chair. I may have to try it and see how much of a difference it is.

I am thinking of bolting my bka300 straight to the bottom of my chair when it comes in tomorrow... Is it made to be mounted like that?? or really made to be used w/ the base?

 

[jswilli1]

I am thinking of bolting my bka300 straight to the bottom of my chair when it comes in tomorrow... Is it made to be mounted like that?? or really made to be used w/ the base?

It has a mount attached to it and should be easy to bolt to your cockpit. Look at pics MrLatte took and you will see the mount.

 

[stega]

It has a mount attached to it and should be easy to bolt to your cockpit. Look at pics MrLatte took and you will see the mount.

Yhea I've seen the holes... But is it really meant to be mounted like that? Like do the instructions say you can/should mount it to the mounting plate and put it under your chair/couch or attach it to your couch/chair directly...?

Has anyone actually mounted the transducer directly to the bottom of their chair / cockpit?

I will have to try it both ways as per Latte's suggestion.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah its simple to mount guys...

Although Stega you will find that the platfrom works quite well if placed just under your seat or frame. The benifit of not hard mounting is being able to maybe then just lift it and also have it under your sofa if your watching some movies etc.

 

[jswilli1]

Yhea I've seen the holes... But is it really meant to be mounted like that? Like do the instructions say you can/should mount it to the mounting plate and put it under your chair/couch or attach it to your couch/chair directly...?

Has anyone actually mounted the transducer directly to the bottom of their chair / cockpit?

I will have to try it both ways as per Latte's suggestion.

If you visit The BK website, they have pictures where they have attached them to theatre seating. I would try both and see which you like best, I am curious about the direct mount.

 

[stega]

So there is really no reduction/loss in sound quality from the wireless transmission?

 

[stega]

Just recived my Bka300 kit and I have a question, If I am hooking it up via the sub output does it matter which input I use the left in or right in?? And Is that the right way to hook It up?? why does it allow for a left and right in?

 

[crazedmodder]

Alright thanks. Let me know if it is any different going bolted (if you do decide to do it) 👍 The reason is because I'm building a cockpit but I don't have a lot of room and the way my room is setup I will have to slide the cockpit out of the way when not in use. I don't want to have to move the Buttkicker all the time.

So there is really no reduction/loss in sound quality from the wireless transmission?

You shouldn't worry about it. I don't think there would be a noticeable loss of quality especially considering the limited range (10-300Hz or crossover frequency) it is using.

Your only issue would be if you have a large source of interference but that is up to your setup. If you don't have problems with cordless phones/wireless routers then you shouldn't have a problem with this.

Just recived my Bka300 kit and I have a question, If I am hooking it up via the sub output does it matter which input I use the left in or right in?? And Is that the right way to hook It up?? why does it allow for a left and right in?

Are you using the wireless version? In this picture I only see one audio input.