Do you believe in God?

[Villain]

I fail.

This would go straight into my sig if today weren't such a nice day for a bananafish.

 

[Tic Tach]

Hypothesis?
A belief for something is the very thing you strive to prove. Beliefs are the very substance that have fed science through the ages.

Arg. It's NOT a belief! It is a tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.

What is this other direction?

Um, the past?

And you've yet to offer anything more than philosophical masturbation about why your position is above theirs.

Because my position, a naturalistic world view, is based upon evidence, reason, and that which can be observed. Is the existence of what we can observe made harder or easier to understand by suggesting things that we cannot observe? Harder or easier?

 

[Joey D]

I still fail to understand how you conveniently separate the two, however I'll put that aside for now. So what good evidence or reason did you come across which led you to believe in a deity. For without good reason or evidence, one is on shaky ground to actually believe something.


It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence. (W. K. Clifford)

How do I separate the two? Easy, they aren't the same thing. Atheist anger made me question myself and I started on a path of exploration. It was the catalyst to make me wake up and realize I needed to be more open minded and actually figure out what I believe instead of just accepting something without real cause.

I've explained my beliefs numerous times in this thread. I don't claim there to be overwhelming evidence, only that my investigation and study of the world around me led me to believe their might be a deity. I've provided myself enough reason for me to believe.

 

[Tic Tach]

I've explained my beliefs numerous times in this thread. I don't claim there to be overwhelming evidence, only that my investigation and study of the world around me led me to believe their might be a deity. I've provided myself enough reason for me to believe.

So would you say that your search or questioning is over, or are you still open to abandoning your "belief?"

 

[Joey D]

So would you say that your search or questioning is over, or are you still open to abandoning your "belief?"

Nope, my search is never going to be over. One always needs to keep exploring the world around them. For all any of us know we could all be way off the mark on everything.

 

[Villain]

I've explained my beliefs numerous times in this thread. I don't claim there to be overwhelming evidence, only that my investigation and study of the world around me led me to believe their might be a deity. I've provided myself enough reason for me to believe.

I can provide Joey's answer:

I've ended up with there must be something more powerful out of our realm of existence. When I get down to questions like "why did the Big Bang occur?" or "Where the matter present in the singularity come from? If it came from another universe then where is the beginning?" I don't believe things can exist in this realm without being created at some point. There has to be a starting point.

The concept of God also makes it difficult for me to comprehend too since there had to have been a beginning for it. But if the concept of God is out of this realm and thus supernatural, it might play by different rules.

It boils down to 'science can't explain it enough so as I understand it there must be some God/Superpower/Uncomprehensible Force.' 👍

 

[Azuremen]

Um, the past?

Because my position, a naturalistic world view, is based upon evidence, reason, and that which can be observed. Is the existence of what we can observe made harder or easier to understand by suggesting things that we cannot observe? Harder or easier?

Neither? I fail to see how it can complicate something to suggest there might be stuff out there we don't fully understand. What you are almost proposing is "I don't get it so I won't think about it" which borders on ignorance as well.

As for the past, people who are religious tend to be more open to the idea of an eternal something, as God is suppose to be eternal. I often find more reisstance from the "scientists" on that suggestion.

 

[Joey D]

I can provide Joey's answer:


It boils down to 'science can't explain it enough so as I understand it there must be some God/Superpower/Uncomprehensible Force.' 👍

You make it sound as I scoff at science, which is false. It's also not a lack of understanding, I don't fully understand evolution but I don't use it as justification for a deity. I've explained this before, I go back further and further until I get to a point that is unknowable, which leads me to believe their is something greater than this universe.

 

[Villain]

I fail to see how it can complicate something to suggest there might be stuff out there we don't fully understand.

There's nothing wrong with suggesting the existence of something that we don't fully understand. That's what science is all about. The complications arise when you suggest something that is not subject to the scientific method.

 

[TankAss95]

John Prologue: Christ, the Eternal Word 1In the beginning the Word already existed.The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. God created everything through Him, and nothing was created except through Him. The Word gave life to everything that was created, and His life brought light to everyone. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.
-John 1:1-5 (NLT)

This would go straight into my sig if today weren't such a nice day for a bananafish.

Why not have both, or combine?

 

[Villain]

Why not have both, or combine?

I thought about it, but decided that your fail is already easy for anyone to look up on their own.

 

[TankAss95]

I thought about it, but decided that your fail is already easy for anyone to look up on their own.

I describe myself as being a failure in this thread not because of my stance on the topic at hand, but because of my inability to explain my stance to others like yourself.

 

[theotherspongey]

John Prologue: Christ, the Eternal Word 1In the beginning the Word already existed.The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. God created everything through Him, and nothing was created except through Him. The Word gave life to everything that was created, and His life brought light to everyone. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.
-John 1:1-5 (NLT)

This proves what, exactly?

 

[Akira AC]

This proves what, exactly?

It proves that there is nothing better to quote from the bible, and that the genesis book is a good example of how theists used to conceive the creation of the world, and we all know how "true" that is.

 

[TankAss95]

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
-Romans 1:21-23

-

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
-Philippians 2:5-11

 

[Tic Tach]

Neither? I fail to see how it can complicate something to suggest there might be stuff out there we don't fully understand. What you are almost proposing is "I don't get it so I won't think about it" which borders on ignorance as well.

No. That's not what I said. I asked if it was easier or harder to understand our world/universe by suggesting or asserting things which cannot be observed. Clearly the correct answer is that it makes it harder to understand reality when one just asserts things (and supernatural things to boot) which cannot be observed. Otherwise, anything goes, and believing in astrology is equivalent to the theory of evolution.

 

[MustangCobra95]

Can some Mod PLEASE remove all my posts on here so this WON'T appear in my thread list?!

 

[Akira AC]

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
-Romans 1:21-23

Interesting, is remarkably similar to what politicians/lawyers do when see themselves defeated against an very strong argument.

This shows how the bible is used just like a political tool, just like is used by the Muslims, any contraction is tagged as unwise even it such thing is been proven correct, similar to the cases presented during the crusades or the Salem witch trials.

Besides the Hindus and other cultures that do not believe in the concept of god as is presented on this thread have done remarkable advances in mathematics and astronomy, not to mention psychology, which shows that the premise in that passage is very contradictory and also exclusive (not to mention that it automatically tags any presentation of an argument against the existence of god as evil).

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
-Philippians 2:5-11

So, this proves what? That Jesus became a martyr, just like the suicide bombers that terrorist groups trains, because that is what it seems to imply.



I found the cite of these passages actually offensive, because if people don't believe in god then that makes them "dark and confused", I guess that this is the kind of stuff that atheists get piss about, and then theists whine about the aggressiveness of the atheists posters.

 

[El]

As we live in the present, the world view of religion and that of modern science might seem like something completely different. Like two different branches of history. One based on belief, one on logic.

When early humans observed the world around them, the logical explenations were those of superstition. When they yelled into a cave and someone yelled back the only logical explenation was that there was a monster in there yelling things back.

Religion is science. Early, outdated science which helped people create communities and some kind of understanding of the world around us. The only problem is that these old superstitions has grown deep roots in society and still haunts us to this day, even in this forum.

As we discover new things, im sure many people will find it hard to accept new ways of understanding our existence. They will stick to older theories and close their eyes and ears to all new evidence. This also goes for those who today calls themself atheists. This is just how people are, we need some kind of peace in our existence, something to hold on to.

I describe myself as being a failure in this thread not because of my stance on the topic at hand, but because of my inability to explain my stance to others like yourself.

If you cant explain it with words, how can you justify your belief to what is most important of all, yourself?

Let me guess; You "feel it in your hart"? "It cant be explained"? "I dont need to"?

Ive never heard a good answer to this questin, so im exited.

God Almighty is the something that can take nothing and add something.

You honestly think this universe we live in is all there is and ever has been? I dont know, and will never know the answer o "everything". But I do know, that if a human being was presented it right now, even in the simplest sense, he would have no chance of understanding it.

 

[HP]

This is just how people are, we need some kind of peace in our existence, something to hold on to.

For the majority this is true. I however am content knowing that "I exist, therefore I am". I do not seek comfort in that which cannot be proven.

I do see and appreciate the principles behind the old religion of the north though, the pagan way held many principles that can be put into practice today and will help one grow & be content & the best part is you are not required to live in a state of perpetual apology in order to feel worthy of yourself.

That is my biggest gripe with Christianity, it makes good honest people too afraid of their own actions that it robs them of the very same "free will" that they supposedly have been given, it is truly the greatest irony in all religions IMO.

 

[TJC_69]

Hun200kmh
@ TJC_69: Your blindness is amazing. Strong or Hard atheism (look it up please) is the kind of atheism you profess. Yes, profess. It goes beyond saying "I won't believe in God unless it is scientifically proven that such an entity exists" - THIS IS NOT A BELIEF

I'm not physically or emotionally blind in any sense of the word . But thankyou for trying to insinuate that I am due to the fact that I don't believe in a ' Story ' that is thousands of years old , invented by man , told re-told and re-translated throughout documented history . What a smart comment you made there , Jesus will be so proud of you . 👍

I am not a strong hard atheist as you put it . I do not believe in God & for good reason . It makes absolutely no sense to a logical person to bow down to an imaginary deity that was invented as a form of overt crowd control over the organisation skills of mankind . Not only is this an outdated concept , it does very little to actually help mankind progress and grow as a whole today with its mystical fairytale dogma just perpetrating the same old myths and factual discrepancies.

Scientific proof of the imaginary is not possible . When will people understand this ? It is in my opinion far more likely that an alien race had something to do with life on this planet . If this was ever proven then i'd welcome you to feel humble in the presence of your alien masters . In fact I would consider joining you in that awe-inspiring moment .

But no , invisible people outside of the realms of our known Universe hold no interest for me .
I am not blind for stating statutory facts . Please look outside of your bubble and try to find something called ' common sense ' .

Thanks . 👍

 

[Exorcet]

people will find it hard to accept new ways of understanding our existence. They will stick to older theories and close their eyes and ears to all new evidence. This also goes for those who today calls themself atheists.

I think you're being a little unfair to state that without much to back it up. I exist, there's no reason for it, and I don't really care that there isn't a reason. I don't really have much to cling to, my world view is driven by evidence. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'm not physically or emotionally blind in any sense of the word . But thankyou for trying to insinuate that I am due to the fact that I don't believe in a ' Story ' that is thousands of years old , invented by man , told re-told and re-translated throughout documented history . What a smart comment you made there , Jesus will be so proud of you . 👍

I am not a strong hard atheist as you put it . I do not believe in God & for good reason . It makes absolutely no sense to a logical person to bow down to an imaginary deity that was invented as a form of overt crowd control over the organisation skills of mankind . Not only is this an outdated concept , it does very little to actually help mankind progress and grow as a whole today with its mystical fairytale dogma just perpetrating the same old myths and factual discrepancies.

Scientific proof of the imaginary is not possible . When will people understand this ? It is in my opinion far more likely that an alien race had something to do with life on this planet . If this was ever proven then i'd welcome you to feel humble in the presence of your alien masters . In fact I would consider joining you in that awe-inspiring moment .

But no , invisible people outside of the realms of our known Universe hold no interest for me .
I am not blind for stating statutory facts . Please look outside of your bubble and try to find something called ' common sense ' .

Thanks . 👍

The blindness I was referring to was about your refusal to aknowledge that the statement I quoted from you, this one: "God has never been in the material world as he is an imaginary fictional character" was more than saying "I won't believe until there's scientific proof that he exists". Apparently you didn't see there's a difference here and that's the "blindness" I mentioned.

I would say "sorry" for the use of a harsh word but frankly, let me remind you about the "mystical fairy tale bubbles" and about your "welcoming message" to the land of rational thought. Patronizing much? Well, I take no lessons on rational thought and I accept no welcoming messages to places where I am - in fact - very at ease. And you know why? Because I know my faith in the existence of a Creator is a belief, and I accept it as it is. There's nothing irrational here, as it would probably be the case if I would try to argue that God is scientifically achievable.

In short, and using the words of Jesus - "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"


PS - Only now noticed the "common sense" bit you want me to find. I'll level with your way of having a discussion and will reply again, like this: I suggest you come down of that pedestal and go look for it yourself. Not being blind in any way, you might even find it. Oh and look for me, I might be there waiting.

 

[TankAss95]

Here is a question to everyone:
"Do you think that with infinite chance there is infinite possibility?"

 

[TJC_69]

The blindness I was referring to was about your refusal to aknowledge that the statement I quoted from you, this one: "God has never been in the material world as he is an imaginary fictional character" was more than saying "I won't believe until there's scientific proof that he exists". Apparently you didn't see there's a difference here and that's the "blindness" I mentioned.

I would say "sorry" for the use of a harsh word but frankly, let me remind you about the "mystical fairy tale bubbles" and about your "welcoming message" to the land of rational thought. Patronizing much? Well, I take no lessons on rational thought and I accept no welcoming messages to places where I am - in fact - very at ease. And you know why? Because I know my faith in the existence of a Creator it is a belief, and I accept it as it is. There's nothing irrational here, as it would probably be the case if I would try to argue that God is scientifically achievable.

In short, and using the words of Jesus - "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"


PS - Only now noticed the "common sense" bit you want me to find. I'll level with your way of having a discussion and will reply again, like this: I suggest you come down of that pedestal and go look for it yourself. Not being blind in any way, you might even find it. Oh and look for me, I might be there waiting.

God is a fictional character , that is an absolute fact . I've already said this therefore it doesn't need re-iterating. You're wrong with your interpretation of my statement but that's ok , you can keep believing that's what I meant if you like.
I'm not interested in apologies , only debate . If you feel patronised then it's just your defensive mechanisms kicking in to keep your religion bubble intact . But that's ok with me also . Stating that something doesn't exist is no more offensive than saying Santa is fake , there really is no issue there.

That Jesus jibberish doesn't wash with me either . Utter outdated nonsense .

Ahh the great comeback of repeating my words & trying to turn it around on me . Unfortunately your statement lacks any depth or reference to your argument . My closing paragraph re-iterated my whole post and was in clear reference to the lack of understanding from the trapped religion bubble perspective . Your copy of such a sentence is merely a child like copy , equivalent of a ' So There !! ' .

How amusing . 👍

 

[BobK]

Here is a question to everyone:
"Do you think that with infinite chance there is infinite possibility?"

Could you expand a bit on what it is you're asking?

My first impulse was to post something along the lines of, if the chance of something happening is zero then it won't occur in an infinite number of trials. But if the chance is infinitesimally greater than zero, then in an infinite number of trials it will certainly happen. In fact it'll happen an infinite number of times (infinity is funny that way).

But to be honest, I have no idea if that response has anything whatsoever to do with your question.

 

[TJC_69]

Could you expand a bit on what it is you're asking?

My first impulse was to post something along the lines of, if the chance of something happening is zero then it won't occur in an infinite number of trials. But if the chance is infinitesimally greater than zero, then in an infinite number of trials it will certainly happen. In fact it'll happen an infinite number of times (infinity is funny that way).

But to be honest, I have no idea if that response has anything whatsoever to do with your question.

I think he's possibly looking for an athiest poster to say ' Yes ' so he can come back with an argument of something like - " Well then , you must agree with me that there is a possibility of God existing , given that in a infinite Universe of infinite possibilities then there must be one that has a God . "

Or something similar perhaps .....?

 

[homeforsummer]

If that was the case then it's a paradoxical question anyway, because with infinite possibility then each and every thing that people who believe in God believe could be explained scientifically.

 

[TankAss95]

Could you expand a bit on what it is you're asking?

My first impulse was to post something along the lines of, if the chance of something happening is zero then it won't occur in an infinite number of trials. But if the chance is infinitesimally greater than zero, then in an infinite number of trials it will certainly happen. In fact it'll happen an infinite number of times (infinity is funny that way).

But to be honest, I have no idea if that response has anything whatsoever to do with your question.

Right. If the big bang did actually happen, unless some other kind of explanation of quantum physics could say otherwise, then the amount of energy that the universe contains must be 0. Am I correct? Energy cannot be created or destroyed, so the material that created the big bang (I know you guys seem to hate me using the word material, but I'm not quite sure what else to call it) must have had energy or no energy. Therefore the only plausible explanation that the big bang could be true if the universe has no energy, thus having more stance towards the origin of the big bang itself?

I think he's possibly looking for an athiest poster to say ' Yes ' so he can come back with an argument of something like - " Well then , you must agree with me that there is a possibility of God existing , given that in a infinite Universe of infinite possibilities then there must be one that has a God . "

Or something similar perhaps .....?

Not at all. I belief that God does not exist in a material sense (since Jesus). He cannot be studied because he has no matter or substance. I believe he is not within the realms of this universe. He created the universe, and gives it order and possibly even gives it the will to continue to exist (or motivation) if needed. He can see the time as the time of this universe itself is linear. He does not obey to these rules because he created them, and does not exist within them. He is the alpha and omega, he gives the universe the energy to exist in the first place. Any actions he must do is transferred into the realms of this universe. I'm really sorry I find this stuff really hard to explain and I know that is no excuse and I know you think my beliefs are ridiculous but bear with me.

If that was the case then it's a paradoxical question anyway, because with infinite possibility then each and every thing that people who believe in God believe could be explained scientifically.

No. The reason I brought up the question is because I highly doubt that our existence came into being from total destruction, without order from a higher power. If the big bang happened without order from a higher power then it would have given a totally chaotic universe, and in a chaotic universe any progress made towards us being in existence would constantly be disassembled or destroyed. Our universe is fascinating, because it is neither chaotic nor perfect. If it was perfect it would have been boring. If it was chaotic then any progress would have, as I have said above, been disassembled or destroyed. Infinite possibility may be true with infinite chance, but only in the right conditions.

That's my take on it.

 

[Tic Tach]

Not at all. I believe that God does not exist in a material sense (since Jesus). He cannot be studied because he has no matter or substance. I believe he is not within the realms of this universe. He created the universe, and gives it order and possibly even gives it the will to continue to exist (or motivation) if needed. He can see the time as the time of this universe itself is linear. He does not obey to these rules because he created them, and does not exist within them. He is the alpha and omega, he gives the universe the energy to exist in the first place. Any actions he must do is transferred into the realms of this universe.

Here's a game: Find the Pattern above.


Men create the gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form but with regard to their mode of life. (Aristotle)