Do you believe in God?

[niky]

That's just a theory I doubt that'll happen.

Gravity is "just a theory", which means: It's okay to go ahead and try that 20 foot parkour jump between two four story buildings. I doubt you'll fall.

So let me get this right, you are saying that moral goodness is based on what is best for human flourishing. Is that correct?

What does your Bible tell you? That it is all right to yoke the oxen and enslave them to your plow. That it is all right ot slaughter poor, innocent, defenseless lambs as sacrifice. That it is all right to catch and kill fish to eat.

The Bible doesn't much care for animals, since it declares they have no soul. So this argument is a non-starter, because morality and ethics in the Bible are based on what the preconceptions of the Biblical writers were of what was best for people.

We can supposedly get objective moral values from science in this way because science can tell us what is beneficial for Human life, but then why is human life more valuable than ants or mice?

Human life is only more valuable to us. And only because we are human.

Science can tell us what is beneficial for the flourishing of rice or corn, but has nothing else to say about it, so how can we know how to treat it, and how are we of any more value than that? Plus why think that inflicting harm on another member of our species is wrong? Of course I believe that it is wrong to harm another human being, but why would it be wrong if atheism is true?

Why would it be wrong to hurt another human if God=True? There are gods who command us to kill the unbelievers. In fact, in the Old Testament, God made it quite plain that he would be happy to let the Israelites kill off all the ancient Palestinians (Canannites) to take their land away from them.

The reason to not hurt another human being is because they are another human being, and you recognize that they have the same right to life as you. Because we are a social animal, and our strength is in cooperation. The reason to hurt or kill another being is also thus: If that human being threatens harm to us or our family or neighbors.

Atheism offers no meaning, value, or purpose to human life, because we are all destined to the same extinction anyway.

Again, opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

So, what is the basis of our moral values?
A. Social convention?
B. Personal preference?
C. Evolution?
D. God?

How about: E. Humanity?

A. The Majority doesn't make the right. The majority once thought that slavery was okay and that women were second class citizens.

B. Your choice is already a personal preference, so this is a non-answer.

C. Evolution doesn't tell us anything. Again, you are misconstruing a concept. Evolution merely describes the process of change. It doesn't make moral judgments.

D. Who speaks for God? Every religion has its own moral codes. While some are similar, others are vastly different.

Basing your morality on humanity, arrived at by rational thought, is relatively easy. So easy that, (as we have discussed innumerable times before), several independent thinkers have arrived at the same answer. The greatest morality is to "Do unto others what we wish others to do unto us".

We are all human. Being human, we value human life. If we didn't, might as well kill ourselves, right?

We want other humans to value our lives as well. So we grant them the respect of not killing them, and they grant us the respect of not killing us.

As humans, as social animals, our ability to survive is greatest if we cooperate with others. The survival of our species is greatest if we cooperate with each other. We are concerned with the survival of our species because our purpose as a species is to reproduce and spread our genes. And the survival of our children hinges upon how we interact with other humans and our environment.

-

Simple, straight to the point. And exactly the same answer to exactly the same question you've posted before.

 

[Azuremen]

That's just a theory I doubt that'll happen.

Just like it was theory that gravity distorts space time.

You know, then we documented it happening.

Much as we have with stars. Cool thing is we can actually look at the reflections stars create in dust clouds and ice systems. The result is, due to the distances in involved, we can observe something in various points of its history at the same time. Thus we can look into different parts of the past as if they are happening right then and there.

What our sun will do is theory, but it is highly documented. Much like if you drop a ball, yes it is theory what they ball will do, but you already know because you've seen other balls fall when let go.

 

[Encyclopedia]

That's just a theory I doubt that'll happen.

Pretty silly to dismiss something you don't know the first thing about as "just a theory", don't you think?

 

[PeterJB]

That's just a theory I doubt that'll happen.

Yes it will, obviously not for a very very long time. Take a look at the Red Hypergiant Betelgeuse (in the constellation Orion). The mass it loses from expending the supply of Hydrogen in it's core causes it's gravity well to weaken, the outer layers gradually expand away from the core. As it does this, the surface area increases and the star cools down as it loses heat faster, explaining the shift from yellow to a red colour. Betelgeuse has a diameter of roughly 5.5 AU (i.e. the distance between the Sun and Jupiter). Eventually it will shed the outer layers, destroying any planets that may be orbiting it. Then all that will be left is the core (a White Dwarf Star), that will slowly cool down over time. This Star is 500 light-years away and the supernova it creates will be brighter than a full moon. That ought to finish off any planets orbiting it.

The Sun is currently in the main sequence of it's life, but it is gradually expanding and will eventually engulf Mercury, Venus, the Earth and Mars before it dies, destroying Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune in the process.

 

[BobK]

An introduction to my argument:

I. If God does not exist, then all human life as well as every individual life will eventually be destroyed.

This is correct. However, even if God does exist, then we are all going to die. Not only individually, but eventually the entire human race.

II. If there is no God and no life beyond the grave, then life itself has no objective meaning or purpose:

Whoa, where did that "life beyond the grave" thing come from? That's a completely separate issue from whether or not God exists. Immortality would not require the existence of God, nor would the existence of God require immortality.

However, that being said, then yes, life has no meaning or purpose other than to beget more life. That bolded part is the answer to the question you keep asking: what is the purpose of life.

A) Meaning:
1. Without immortality your life has no ultimate significance and makes no difference to the world's outcome.

So we're talking immortality here, not God, then. Mmmkay.

I'm not sure what you mean by "world's outcome" here. If you're talking about the eventual extinction of man and all life in general in a couple trillion years if not sooner, then yeah. Makes no difference. What of it?

2. Without God there is no broader framework within which man's life can be seen clearer.

Conceding this point for the sake of argument, then so what? Why is a broader framework necessary?

B) Value:
1. Without immortality there is no moral accountability, and your moral choices become inconsequential.

Why is immortality required for morality? I'll state rather flatly that you're wrong in this assertion.

I don't need any anybody wagging their finger at me saying "thou shalt not do that". Since you keep harping on this, I can only assume you do.

2. Without God moral values are just delusions ingrained into us by evolution and social conditioning.

If you don't know what evolution is, and from that statement you clearly don't, you shouldn't bring it into the discussion. I assure you, though, that morals and not "just delusions", with our without the existence of God.

C) Purpose:
1. Without immortality your only destination is extinction in death.
2. Without God there is no purpose for which you came into this world.

No argument here. An accurate summation. However it does not advance the case for either immortality or God.

III. It is impossible to live consistently and happy with an atheistic world view:
A) If we live happy as atheists, it is only by inconsistently affirming meaning, value, and purpose for our lives, despite the lack of foundation for them.
B) If we live consistently as atheists, we shall be profoundly unhappy and even in despair because we know our lives are really meaningless, worthless, and purposeless.

You know, I can't believe you're still regurgitating this swill. Are you calling the atheists who have posted otherwise liars? You're saying they're profoundly unhappy, when they've repeatedly said the opposite. I would think they'd be in a far better position to know their own feelings then you are.

IV. Biblical Christianity challenges the worldview of modern man:
A) According to biblical Christianity God exists and life does not end at the grave.
B) Biblical Christianity thereby affirms the two conditions sufficient for a meaningful, valuable, and purposeful life: God and immortality.

Sufficient, maybe, but certainly not required.

C) Biblical Christianity therefore supplies a framework within which we can live consistently and happily.
D) So why not consider some arguments I can bring forward to challenge your worldview, and perhaps change your life?

Well, so far I've been considering your arguments and for the most part I find them to be less than convincing, if not totally bogus in some cases. You're welcome to keep trying, though.

 

[wrxsilver]

"III. It is impossible to live consistently and happy with an atheistic world view:"

Wow.... I almost can't believe that was said. I mean, so my happiness isn't real?

Believe me, I'm very happy. Once people realize that happiness comes from other sources than the normal, popular beliefs, happiness comes easier. Crazy. Knowing that this is it....life is short, makes one realize to how valuable life is and what is important and isn't....which is a big key to finding ones own happiness. Trust me, I'm happy, and believe me on this one, because I've seen it and still see it....Christians/Believers are some of the most horribly sad miserable people. I've seen the alter calls. It blew my mind how many folks would go up on a Sunday. I'm like "what in the world did these folks do during the week that has them all jacked up"..... Week after week, month after month. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's not working. Happiness comes from something totally different. My personal opinion is that it is kinda like wisdom, realizations and insight come to individuals when the time is right. I've had more "ah ha" moments from 40 -now, 42, than I've ever had my entire life....and I used to try so so hard to find happiness. Thought it would be a career, thought it would be a woman, thought it would be a house.....nope, in my own personal world....it's way way simpler than that. And yes, believe it or not....all this happiness and I don't even think I have eternal life after death. Impossible you say??? No sir, trust me, it exists.

Okay, and I don't remember who wrote this in here but....:

""Plus why think that inflicting harm on another member of our species is wrong? Of course I believe that it is wrong to harm another human being, but why would it be wrong if atheism is true?""

I know I said I wouldn't comment any more, but I just have to say something in regards to above quoted. Wow, I can't be happy, I don't value human life? It's almost as if you think we don't exist. Rocks my brain to think in your world, values only come from relion, bible etc. As if to say take that away and society would crumble. Or a Christian one day is a great family man, where his brother never believed and he will be a murderer. I'm guessing if I was to ask you, since I'm an athiest, where do YOU think I get my morals from, the answer would almost certainly be along the lines of "god is just working in your life still", or another popular one is "god must just have a plan for you". Simple and convienient answers when stuck with tuff questions. It's kinda like actually believing in magic. Some tricks are so amazing you really think the trick occured, but anyone with any common sense knows it's just a magic trick. But man, it would be so much cooler to think a person was really cut in half.

Look, when it comes to inflicting harm upon other human beings, I don't think any religious belief system has a foot hold on that topic. I mean countless wars and slaughters have been waged in name of religion and god. Christians are not exempt at all. Crusades ring a bell to anyone? Some tiny little “holy” skirmish…I think a few casualties were had. And the crazy thing is it's war and death based on fundamental belief disagreements. So, I ask you…..why is it okay for believers to harm other human beings if their beliefs don’t agree?? To my little atheist brain, that is a very unacceptable reason to be killing people. Obviously, it's still going on today. We need look no further than the Middle East.

Shoot, here I am a calm, peacful, considerate athiest who has experienced road rage just trying to get out of a mega church's parking lot. Such peace loving happiness. Are you kidding me!!!!

I don't have the ability or understanding to tell you why killing another human being is wrong to me, it just is. It’s like asking me why I am a nice person. I don’t know….I can’t say why exactly other than I just am. I have a feeling it has much to do with Nature vs Nurture concepts during our upbringing and a large part, I would bet, has to do with our personality. Being an atheist, I kinda feel the opposite is say a serial killer. Mentally ill, traced back to something in childhood, etc etc. They don't get off the hook as being EVIL or whatnot. It's just the law of averages in such a vast population of people....bound to be some troubled folks. My life was an absolute disaster from the time I was born until about 8, then went back to horrible about 13 on to adulthood. I'm always told and believe that yes, it's amazing I'm not a messed up person who is doing this bad thing or that bad thing. "god was watching out for you" is the norm. However, I've always had a strong strong feeling that it's just ME and my personality my DNA, my genes, combined with my environment during development. As bad as it was, I must have had something positive to draw from. And no....it wasn't god watching over me.
Just because we don’t know the answer to “why this, or why that” doesn’t mean it’s okay to slap the answer of God in there to fill in the blanks. Some things we will never know and it’s awful big brained of us to even think we ever will. I don’t know the answers to the origin of the universe and I’m not sold on the science sided answer personally, and that’s okay….it doesn’t really matter. In the whole picture off this universe, my time here is so so brief and unimportant. My biggest responsibility today is just to be a good father and do the best I can to raise my son to be a good man.
I would have been the way I am no matter my situation. Also, I would certainly harm or potentially take a life if mine or my child’s life was threatened. No doubt. But for country borders, or belief systems.....eh, I just can't get on board with that. I'm very thankful that I have lived in a time when I have not had to make those kinds of insane decisions. "Jump on board the band wagon or die". (Nazi Germany) That would suck and I can’t imagine the hell of going along with something just so one can preserve one’s own life, but man I understand it.

I think it was Carl Sagan that said this in one of his books (I only read the back page). Not quoted, but it was something about how humans just think there must be something special about us and our existance. Like we are so much more important than say other living creatures, becase we are the highest order..whatever they call it. Just the jist of it there. It's so true though. If you stop to think about the infinitness of the universe, it's absurd to think we really have any value or importance at all. It's almost a blessing and a curse to be able to think as higly as we do because it allows us to wonder if ther is a "purpose" to life. Since we can't imagine something as "important" as humans could exist without meaning, we of course try to fabricate what we can't understand. Been that way since begining of time. That's why it amazes me that when I ask, "do you know civilizations used to belive in mythology gods?" They say "yes"... I say, "do we still".....answer is "no"....then it just doesn't click that it's the same thing we are doing now with Chrisianity, Muslim, etc etc. Takes generations and generations to move on from gigantic belief systems like this. There were athiest back then too saying Zues didn't exist (they also had to keep quiet) and called fools for not believing. Hind sight, we now know they were correct.

 

[Dennisch]

Or you edit your post. In stead of triple posting.

 

[wrxsilver]

And it never bothers, lets say Christians, just because I see so many examples, is the inter-religion bickering that goes on. For instance, one Christian sect may think it's not okay to dance, while others are now allowing homosexual ministers to preach. I mean how is it not infuriating to church members that believe one thing, and another, under the same supposed god, are believing and doing something different? On one side of the block, we believe Jesus is the mesiah, down the road a bit, eh...not so much. Loud music good in one, drums are devil music in another. absolutely no concensus whatsoever. Ask each one and they believe THEY are the correct one. Mind boggling. So different, but each one is the right "way".

 

[Sach]

I mean how is it not infuriating to church members that believe one thing, and another, under the same supposed god, are believing and doing something different?

Who says it isn't? For starters, the existence of Christian denominations at all is in contrast to the teachings of Christ. God is not the problem, people are.

 

[wrxsilver]

Right, I get what you are saying and agree. Bad question. I should have stated my thought differently. I guess by asking that question, I was meaning to get around to this thought. In my life, that complete lack of agreement on what is correct or handed down as the word of god was a piece of what started the process of me thinking about the entire belief system.

My second/adopted family was strong Presbyterian, so that's how I was raised and believed until I came here to Colorado. I can't say why, or what all the catylyst were other to say that it was several things combined. Kind of like the flood gates opened. Which by the way is something I wanted to mention...I'm only sharing my opinions, and have no issues with believers. Shoot, I live in a heavily populated Christian area. Usually it never even crosses my mind. Nor do I even think for a second thoughts will change. It's just hard to read some things and know that people actually think/believe it. Like: happiness can't exist without god. I mean of all the things that we speak about in this thread that can't be proven on either side, I should know, because it's me, that I'm happy. I also understand that life is completely full of ups and downs, so happy today may be sad tomorrow. Peaks and valleys.

Yes, people are the problem in that equation. However, knowing that doesn't change the fact that I don't believe in a god. People, society, have been creating gods and jacking it up with religion for ages and ages. Just depends on which god and which religion.

I have a ton of questions and statements about the entire matter, that I have been told to "just ask the minister", but to be honest, they would make me feel very uncomfortabl asking said person due to the harshness (like a jerk feeling), and secondly, I think I may get some fluff answers that would have me no closer to satisfied. ie, the "there are just some answers god doesn't want us to know yet." errrr

Okay, I'm sorry, I will really shut up now.

 

[Starfirebird]

"III. It is impossible to live consistently and happy with an atheistic world view:"

Wow.... I almost can't believe that was said. I mean, so my happiness isn't real?

Believe me, I'm very happy. Once people realize that happiness comes from other sources than the normal, popular beliefs, happiness comes easier. Crazy. Knowing that this is it....life is short, makes one realize to how valuable life is and what is important and isn't....which is a big key to finding ones own happiness. Trust me, I'm happy, and believe me on this one, because I've seen it and still see it....Christians/Believers are some of the most horribly sad miserable people. I've seen the alter calls. It blew my mind how many folks would go up on a Sunday. I'm like "what in the world did these folks do during the week that has them all jacked up"..... Week after week, month after month. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's not working. Happiness comes from something totally different. My personal opinion is that it is kinda like wisdom, realizations and insight come to individuals when the time is right. I've had more "ah ha" moments from 40 -now, 42, than I've ever had my entire life....and I used to try so so hard to find happiness. Thought it would be a career, thought it would be a woman, thought it would be a house.....nope, in my own personal world....it's way way simpler than that. And yes, believe it or not....all this happiness and I don't even think I have eternal life after death. Impossible you say??? No sir, trust me, it exists.

I have to quote this as being the truth.For the most part this applies to 80% of the people I see.

I live in the bible belt(lucky me right?).I was a Front End Manager for the grocery store I work at for 3 years(i'm still there, 13 years).I would work every Sunday and I always dreaded when Church let out just because of how rude and inconsiderate the people were.I would ask them how are you today?I would either get no response or a forced i'm good.It was like they were mad at the world or something.I also got the feeling just because I didn't go to Church or I work on Sunday that I was bad or something.I felt looked down upon most of the time.I would always tell my cashiers to ignore their behavior,because they were a different breed.

It's pretty bad to be so miserable and mean after getting out of church.You would think it would be the opposite.

 

[huskeR32]

"III. It is impossible to live consistently and happy with an atheistic world view:"

Wow.... I almost can't believe that was said. I mean, so my happiness isn't real?

Believe me, I'm very happy.

Later, in the same post...

Christians/Believers are some of the most horribly sad miserable people.

I'm with you 100% that TankAss needs to stop telling us how unhappy atheists must be. But you pretty much turned around and did the same thing. I'm sure many theists live equally happy and fulfilled lives.

Let's stop telling each side how they feel/think and let everybody decide for themselves how they are.

 

[niky]

Hear, hear. I know a lot of religious people who are perfectly content with their lives.

I think the distinction is that people who are unhappy will turn to religion, sooner or later... there are those who often "cross-shop"... how many celebrities have had their "Kabbalah" phase, "Buddhist" phase or "Scientology" (which is not science!) phase?

But what these people do has no bearing on the existence of God. People are inherently unhappy until they find an answer that suits them.

 

[Starfirebird]

Hear, hear. I know a lot of religious people who are perfectly content with their lives.

I think the distinction is that people who are unhappy will turn to religion, sooner or later... there are those who often "cross-shop"... how many celebrities have had their "Kabbalah" phase, "Buddhist" phase or "Scientology" (which is not science!) phase?

But what these people do has no bearing on the existence of God. People are inherently unhappy until they find an answer that suits them.

Apparently the majority of people who go to Church around here have yet to find that answer.

I mean this is just from my observations from being a Manager for those few years.

 

[nitrorocks]

I have to quote this as being the truth.For the most part this applies to 80% of the people I see.

I live in the bible belt(lucky me right?).I was a Front End Manager for the grocery store I work at for 3 years(i'm still there, 13 years).I would work every Sunday and I always dreaded when Church let out just because of how rude and inconsiderate the people were.I would ask them how are you today?I would either get no response or a forced i'm good.It was like they were mad at the world or something.I also got the feeling just because I didn't go to Church or I work on Sunday that I was bad or something.I felt looked down upon most of the time.I would always tell my cashiers to ignore their behavior,because they were a different breed.

It's pretty bad to be so miserable and mean after getting out of church.You would think it would be the opposite.

We're they catholic?

 

[Starfirebird]

We're they catholic?

The majority around here is Baptist.

 

[nitrorocks]

Oh. I'm sure not all of them were mean. There were definitely some nice ones.

 

[Starfirebird]

Oh. I'm sure not all of them were mean. There were definitely some nice ones.

That's why i said 80% of them

 

[BobK]

I've known people who had trouble with the guilt complex that the church lays on them, and I know people who seem to be happy while still being quite religious. There are happy and unhappy atheists as well. Usually the reasons people are unhappy (or happy) aren't connected with religion.

But to categorically state that atheists must be unhappy is absurd.

 

[motortrend]

I come here to state an interesting observation I have made. When I tell people I don't believe in religion they take it lightly, since maybe they think I don't believe in institutions but do believe in god, yet when I say I am an atheist I get weird looks and baffled faces, as if I were worshipping satan or something like that. I have never really felt disrespected because of my lack of religion but sometimes it gets me into some awkward situations because of the predjudice towards the word "atheism".

 

[Hun200kmh]

2 cents (more,lol) :

1 - I'm an happy catholic.

2- If what some of you guys tell is true than there's definitely something wrong with christians in the USA. I take it all with a VERY big grain of salt, but still ...

 

[PeterJB]

Christianity seems to be a very different ordeal in the Bible Belt than over here. Most Christians I know are very happy, peaceful and polite people that keep their faith to themselves and don't do preaching in streets or whatever. (I realise most American Christians don't do that but when you see things like WBC and various other fundamentalists it does give that impression). The Anglican Church certainly doesn't throw itself at you either. If you want to go to church, it's there for you.

 

[TankAss95]

How so?

#2 makes sense by itself, so #1 is unnecessary.

If #2 is correct, then morality is subjective.

Let's rewind evolution back to the start and start anew, people with a very different set of moral values might have evolved, as Darwin himself wrote in the 'Descent of man':

'If... Men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters; and no one would think of interfering.'

For us to think that human beings are special and our morality objectively true is to succumb to the temptation of speciesism, an unjustified bias toward one's own species.

Why does it take God to give us significance?

Without objective meaning, purpose and value, life is worthless. With atheism, there is no objective meaning, purpose or value, thus life is pointless and whatever significance we give ourselves are nothing but illusionary.

#1: We all die. #2 Do we need a purpose? If so, why?

Yep, we are all going to die, and with atheism there is no hope - not only for us, but for the human race. Think about the second law of thermodynamics, eventually the universe will be a cold, static, lifeless place. As I have said above, given that we are all mortal and lack significance, meaning or purpose, morality becomes subjective.

No we don't need a purpose, but life would be very depressing without one, and I am claiming to know what that purpose is. So perhaps it would be worth your time to listen to the arguments I have to give that Christianity is true and God exists. The whole point of that response wasn't to prove atheism wrong, but to explain why we need to think over these issues carefully and critically. We cannot afford to ignore the possibility of God (which I know you have not done) but to consider wether he actually exists or not. I believe he does, and I believe that I have good reasons and arguments as to why I believe what I think is true.

Really? I imagine you refer to atheists as against the idea of a single or group of Gods. I would qualify as that. I'm happy and have been happier without a belief in God over the last 10 years. Actually, my happiness has increased the more informed I've been, as my once firm belief in God has waned.
Please do. I've challenged yours, so you may. I'd suggest by starting with my responses, then revolving them to understand why they don't make sense.

Thank you for your response.

It's great that you have been happier as you've learned more about science etc, but what if I could show you why God almost certainly exists, and that Jesus was almost certainly resurrected?

I'm not here to lecture you, I'm here because I think that God does exist and he has infinite importance in your life.

Gravity is "just a theory", which means: It's okay to go ahead and try that 20 foot parkour jump between two four story buildings. I doubt you'll fall.

What does your Bible tell you? That it is all right to yoke the oxen and enslave them to your plow. That it is all right ot slaughter poor, innocent, defenseless lambs as sacrifice. That it is all right to catch and kill fish to eat.

The Bible doesn't much care for animals, since it declares they have no soul. So this argument is a non-starter, because morality and ethics in the Bible are based on what the preconceptions of the Biblical writers were of what was best for people.

I don't have time to go over there points that you have brought forward, because I'm not a Bible scholar myself. I will try to answer your point on the Canannites though.

Human life is only more valuable to us. And only because we are human.

Explain how that is justifiable? We are just animals according to atheism, animals with no objective meaning, value or purpose. Of course we care about other human beings, and that is because human beings are of infinite value and purpose!

Why would it be wrong to hurt another human if God=True? There are gods who command us to kill the unbelievers. In fact, in the Old Testament, God made it quite plain that he would be happy to let the Israelites kill off all the ancient Palestinians (Canannites) to take their land away from them.

God had to protect the promised land in preparation for the Messiah. I was trying to avoid doing what I had done before (leading people to answers instead of giving my own) but here's a good website I have been using. There is interesting discussion and answers to many questions:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5767

On that page, William Lane Craig explains what the actual background to the story was, and how it is justified. I encourage you to look at some other content on that site too.

The reason to not hurt another human being is because they are another human being, and you recognize that they have the same right to life as you. Because we are a social animal, and our strength is in cooperation. The reason to hurt or kill another being is also thus: If that human being threatens harm to us or our family or neighbors.

Again that is subjective. So basically what you are saying is that morality is grounded on what is best for the flourishing of sentient life (more particularly, human life). If there is no objective value, purpose or meaning to human life however, then morality is purely subjective as I have explained above.

Again, opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nope. If there is no objective meaning, purpose or value to human life then any meaning, purpose or value is purely subjective - or illusionary. Is this evidence for God? Not particularly, but that's not why I am bringing this point up, I m bringing this point up because I want the people viewing this thread to understand why the existence/non-existence of a personal God is important. I can't prove Gods existence, but If I can make his existence likely (or even plausible) then we are totally rational for believing in his existence.

How about: E. Humanity?

A. The Majority doesn't make the right. The majority once thought that slavery was okay and that women were second class citizens.

B. Your choice is already a personal preference, so this is a non-answer.

C. Evolution doesn't tell us anything. Again, you are misconstruing a concept. Evolution merely describes the process of change. It doesn't make moral judgments.

D. Who speaks for God? Every religion has its own moral codes. While some are similar, others are vastly different.

Basing your morality on humanity, arrived at by rational thought, is relatively easy. So easy that, (as we have discussed innumerable times before), several independent thinkers have arrived at the same answer. The greatest morality is to "Do unto others what we wish others to do unto us".

Humanity has no objective purpose either, so that is a non-answer. Again, human life will inevitably be destroyed due to the second law of thermodynamics as our universe reaches the state of equilibrium. Plus, you have yet to explain why given atheism being true, there is still objective moral values and duties. All you have done is directed me to Human Rights, which presupposes the value and meaning of human life. Circular logic!

We are all human. Being human, we value human life. If we didn't, might as well kill ourselves, right?

We are all human (I hope!). Being human, we value human life (well, the majority of us do. Nihilists don't.) If we didn't, might as well kill ourselves right?

Remember the Joker from 'The Dark Knight'? A majority doesn't make an opinion right, or make an opinion objective. You say that all objective knowledge is found in science. I ask how we can derive objective moral values from science (which you claim) and instead you use an opinion of the vast majority to justify your claim. Just because the majority beliefs something true, it doesn't make it an objective truth.
According to Christianity, objective truths concerning morality exist. Is Christianity true? Well, than is what I'm going to try and achieve in this debate. Although I can't prove Christianity true, I can try to make it probable enough for us to base our lives' on it.

I have the burden of proof to explain why the existence of God is probable and the Truth of Christianity probable (did Jesus rise from the dead?), but you also have a burden of proof: to explain how objective moral values and duties exist given atheism is true. Until then, I'm going to continue to remain unconvinced of that claim, and presume that instead if atheism is true, morality is subjective.

We want other humans to value our lives as well. So we grant them the respect of not killing them, and they grant us the respect of not killing us.

Yep, and I'm glad that the majority of us do! But again some people disagree. Just a mere opinion.

As humans, as social animals, our ability to survive is greatest if we cooperate with others. The survival of our species is greatest if we cooperate with each other. We are concerned with the survival of our species because our purpose as a species is to reproduce and spread our genes. And the survival of our children hinges upon how we interact with other humans and our environment.

-

The survival of our species will come to an end. Even if we did manage to achieve an immortal human race, then it would still have no objective value meaning or purpose given atheism is true.

Simple, straight to the point. And exactly the same answer to exactly the same question you've posted before.

Nope it isn't simple or straight to the point. I will move to my first argument of God's existence after I have gotten my claims across, first though, show me why objective moral values and duties exist in nature. I am not saying that the atheist is immoral in any way (as I have said above), I am just saying that in order for objective moral values to exist we need a perfect moral law giver, who has given us meaning, value and purpose, to give them to us. We don't need to believe in God to be good, instead I'm saying that God must exist in order for objective moral values and duties exist. Is killing innocent people wrong? Sure it is, and that doesn't matter wether God exists or not. But if God doesn't exist then killing innocent people wouldn't be objectively wrong, it would be subjectively wrong - a subjectively wrong moral code which we all seem to hold to (well, the overwhelming majority of us do, anyway). Understand?

 

[Encyclopedia]

I come here to state an interesting observation I have made. When I tell people I don't believe in religion they take it lightly, since maybe they think I don't believe in institutions but do believe in god, yet when I say I am an atheist I get weird looks and baffled faces, as if I were worshipping satan or something like that. I have never really felt disrespected because of my lack of religion but sometimes it gets me into some awkward situations because of the predjudice towards the word "atheism".

I know the feeling. If people bothered to read uo and understand what the word means we wouldn't have that problem. The same could be said for a lot of different things.

 

[Liquid]

It's great that you have been happier as you've learned more about science etc, but what if I could show you why God almost certainly exists, and that Jesus was almost certainly resurrected?

I'm not here to lecture you, I'm here because I think that God does exist and he has infinite importance in your life

Clever weasel words. But I'm intrigued. Enlighten us why these things are true, and not just opinions.

 

[TankAss95]

Clever weasel words. But I'm intrigued. Enlighten us why these things are true, and not just opinions.

I appreciate your doubt. Yes, I accept the burden of proof, but first I have to ground these points I have made.

 

[Bobalob]

If #2 is correct, then morality is subjective.

Let's rewind evolution back to the start and start anew, people with a very different set of moral values might have evolved, as Darwin himself wrote in the 'Descent of man':

'If... Men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters; and no one would think of interfering.'

For us to think that human beings are special and our morality objectively true is to succumb to the temptation of speciesism, an unjustified bias toward one's own species.

Without objective meaning, purpose and value, life is worthless. With atheism, there is no objective meaning, purpose or value, thus life is pointless and whatever significance we give ourselves are nothing but illusionary.

Yep, we are all going to die, and with atheism there is no hope - not only for us, but for the human race. Think about the second law of thermodynamics, eventually the universe will be a cold, static, lifeless place. As I have said above, given that we are all mortal and lack significance, meaning or purpose, morality becomes subjective.

No we don't need a purpose, but life would be very depressing without one, and I am claiming to know what that purpose is. So perhaps it would be worth your time to listen to the arguments I have to give that Christianity is true and God exists. The whole point of that response wasn't to prove atheism wrong, but to explain why we need to think over these issues carefully and critically. We cannot afford to ignore the possibility of God (which I know you have not done) but to consider wether he actually exists or not. I believe he does, and I believe that I have good reasons and arguments as to why I believe what I think is true.

It's great that you have been happier as you've learned more about science etc, but what if I could show you why God almost certainly exists, and that Jesus was almost certainly resurrected?

I'm not here to lecture you, I'm here because I think that God does exist and he has infinite importance in your life.



I don't have time to go over there points that you have brought forward, because I'm not a Bible scholar myself. I will try to answer your point on the Canannites though.

Explain how that is justifiable? We are just animals according to atheism, animals with no objective meaning, value or purpose. Of course we care about other human beings, and that is because human beings are of infinite value and purpose!

God had to protect the promised land in preparation for the Messiah. I was trying to avoid doing what I had done before (leading people to answers instead of giving my own) but here's a good website I have been using. There is interesting discussion and answers to many questions:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5767

On that page, William Lane Craig explains what the actual background to the story was, and how it is justified. I encourage you to look at some other content on that site too.

Again that is subjective. So basically what you are saying is that morality is grounded on what is best for the flourishing of sentient life (more particularly, human life). If there is no objective value, purpose or meaning to human life however, then morality is purely subjective as I have explained above.

Nope. If there is no objective meaning, purpose or value to human life then any meaning, purpose or value is purely subjective - or illusionary. Is this evidence for God? Not particularly, but that's not why I am bringing this point up, I m bringing this point up because I want the people viewing this thread to understand why the existence/non-existence of a personal God is important. I can't prove Gods existence, but If I can make his existence likely (or even plausible) then we are totally rational for believing in his existence.

Humanity has no objective purpose either, so that is a non-answer. Again, human life will inevitably be destroyed due to the second law of thermodynamics as our universe reaches the state of equilibrium. Plus, you have yet to explain why given atheism being true, there is still objective moral values and duties. All you have done is directed me to Human Rights, which presupposes the value and meaning of human life. Circular logic!

We are all human (I hope!). Being human, we value human life (well, the majority of us do. Nihilists don't.) If we didn't, might as well kill ourselves right?

Remember the Joker from 'The Dark Knight'? A majority doesn't make an opinion right, or make an opinion objective. You say that all objective knowledge is found in science. I ask how we can derive objective moral values from science (which you claim) and instead you use an opinion of the vast majority to justify your claim. Just because the majority beliefs something true, it doesn't make it an objective truth.
According to Christianity, objective truths concerning morality exist. Is Christianity true? Well, than is what I'm going to try and achieve in this debate. Although I can't prove Christianity true, I can try to make it probable enough for us to base our lives' on it.

I have the burden of proof to explain why the existence of God is probable and the Truth of Christianity probable (did Jesus rise from the dead?), but you also have a burden of proof: to explain how objective moral values and duties exist given atheism is true. Until then, I'm going to continue to remain unconvinced of that claim, and presume that instead if atheism is true, morality is subjective.

Yep, and I'm glad that the majority of us do! But again some people disagree. Just a mere opinion.

The survival of our species will come to an end. Even if we did manage to achieve an immortal human race, then it would still have no objective value meaning or purpose given atheism is true.

Nope it isn't simple or straight to the point. I will move to my first argument of God's existence after I have gotten my claims across, first though, show me why objective moral values and duties exist in nature. I am not saying that the atheist is immoral in any way (as I have said above), I am just saying that in order for objective moral values to exist we need a perfect moral law giver, who has given us meaning, value and purpose, to give them to us. We don't need to believe in God to be good, instead I'm saying that God must exist in order for objective moral values and duties exist. Is killing innocent people wrong? Sure it is, and that doesn't matter wether God exists or not. But if God doesn't exist then killing innocent people wouldn't be objectively wrong, it would be subjectively wrong - a subjectively wrong moral code which we all seem to hold to (well, the overwhelming majority of us do, anyway). Understand?

If you've been waiting until now to disclose your almost certain proof you could have saved some time a few hundred pages ago.

also I'm sorry you can't accept a less glamourous answer for the meaning of life but I don't need anything special to happen after I die in order to live well now...

Why do you have to be a special being created by god to fit into the world? It makes so much more sense to me that we have been lucky enough to follow an evolutionary path that grants us certain attributes such as grasping hands and an independent mind, that may even occur again in another species in 100,000 years time, or maybe god might leave a few useless organs left over in their bodies, just to mix things up a bit, test a few people, you know what I mean.

When I look at the world I'm flesh and blood like other animals, they've/I've developed similar solutions to biological problems and I can even see the same emotions, so what makes me better in gods eyes?

As for life after death, it does not sadden me to know I will someday die, and although I can't imagine "nothingness" how scary could it be?

The idea that Christians and other religions know my happiness better
than me is insulting, and forms the condescending manner I dislike.

 

[TankAss95]

If you've been waiting until now to disclose your almost certain proof you could have saved some time a few hundred pages ago.

I didn't know as much as I know now a few hundred pages ago.

also I'm sorry you can't accept a less glamourous answer for the meaning of life but I don't need anything special to happen after I die in order to live well now...

That's not what I said. Atheism provides no objective value, meaning or purpose for our lives. Any of these you can come up with are nothing but subjective illusions according to atheism.

Why do you have to be a special being created by god to fit into the world? It makes so much more sense to me that we have been lucky enough to follow an evolutionary path that grants us certain attributes such as grasping hands and an independent mind, that may even occur again in another species in 100,000 years time, or maybe god might leave a few useless organs left over in their bodies, just to mix things up a bit, test a few people, you know what I mean.

I have never said that we have to be a special being created by God to fit into this world. All I was doing was underlying why the existence of God is important to the reality of nature, and why objective moral values and duties cannot exist given atheism is true.
Then I presented my first argument:

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

If reality makes much more sense to you without God, then that's fine, but you have to refute this argument. Until my point that objective value, meaning and purpose to human life is non-existent given atheism is true and that atheism provides no objective moral duties and values is either accepted or refuted in this discussion, then I will move no further. I am laying out the foundations for an argument for the existence of God, and finally Biblical Christianity.

[QUOTE="Bobalob]"When I look at the world I'm flesh and blood like other animals, they've/I've developed similar solutions to biological problems and I can even see the same emotions, so what makes me better in gods eyes?[/QUOTE]

And what's the point of me answering your question? Anything I will say you will refute. According to atheism, we are nothing but conscious beings spewed out of the cosmos facing ultimate destruction. I disagree, and I believe there is a personal God who has made himself evident to us. I refuse to give my arguments for this until the above points I have raised are refuted or accepted.
[QUOTE="Bobalob]"As for life after death, it does not sadden me to know I will someday die, and although I can't imagine "nothingness" how scary could it be?

The idea that Christians and other religions know my happiness better
than me is insulting, and forms the condescending manner I dislike.[/QUOTE]

According to the mass of scientific evidence, not just your life, but everything you have ever done/achieved will be consumed and forever forgotten in the future. The universe will become an inhabitable, static, cold place. If you want to deny the existence of God, even though I may prove his existence probable or necessary, then there is not much point me arguing on here after all.

 

[BobK]

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

If reality makes much more sense to you without God, then that's fine, but you have to refute this argument.

I refuted it. You ignored it.

And what's the point of me answering your question? Anything I will say you will refute.

So you're agreeing in advance that he can refute what you say.

According to atheism, we are nothing but conscious beings spewed out of the cosmos facing ultimate destruction.

Again, you misunderstand atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in God, nothing more, nothing less.

I disagree, and I believe there is a personal God who has made himself evident to us. I refuse to give my arguments for this until the above points I have raised are refuted or accepted.

I refuted it. You ignored it.

 

[huskeR32]

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

If reality makes much more sense to you without God, then that's fine, but you have to refute this argument.

I refuted it. You ignored it.

BobK is right. In fact, many of us have refuted it. And you've ignored all of us.

That's not what I said. Atheism provides no objective value, meaning or purpose for our lives. Any of these you can come up with are nothing but subjective illusions according to atheism.

So what? You still haven't come up with one good reason why life needs meaning or purpose. So far as I can tell, some people need to believe that their life is purposeful to help deal with a fear of dying. Others don't need to believe that. End of story.

I have never said that we have to be a special being created by God to fit into this world.

Isn't that exactly what you are saying when you insist that our lives have meaning and purpose, and that that purpose must come from god?

Until my point that objective value, meaning and purpose to human life is non-existent given atheism is true...

You're starting to misuse the word atheism again. Atheism isn't a belief or and idea about anything. It doesn't claim anything, and as a result, it's not anything that can be "true" or "false." It simply doesn't make sense to say that. Let's rewrite it so that it can be properly argued against:

Until my point that objective value, meaning and purpose to human life is non-existent given that god does not exist...

Now we're right back to where we started:
Life doesn't need to have a purpose or meaning. Those who say it does are expressing an opinion, nothing more.

...and that atheism provides no objective moral duties and values is either accepted or refuted in this discussion, then I will move no further.

You're right, atheism doesn't provide objective morality. Because it doesn't provide anything at all. But atheists do have morality. And the fact that they do proves you wrong. Without god in our lives, we still have morals. End of story.

And what's the point of me answering your question? Anything I will say you will refute. According to atheism, we are nothing but conscious beings spewed out of the cosmos facing ultimate destruction. I disagree, and I believe there is a personal God who has made himself evident to us. I refuse to give my arguments for this until the above points I have raised are refuted or accepted.

You can disagree all you want. It doesn't make your opinion more than just that, an opinion.

According to the mass of scientific evidence, not just your life, but everything you have ever done/achieved will be consumed and forever forgotten in the future. The universe will become an inhabitable, static, cold place. If you want to deny the existence of God, even though I may prove his existence probable or necessary, then there is not much point me arguing on here after all.

Again I ask, so what? You inability to accept this answer doesn't prove anything other than the fact that you (and lots of other people) are uncomfortable/scared with the idea that our lives are meaningless. Doesn't mean that they aren't.