Do you believe in God?

[Dotini]

What happens if I die, and I've not made any decision as to my belief in God? Clearly, that is possible. I haven't made any decision now, and there's nothing that's going to actually force me to before I die. So your statement that you must make a decision is obviously literally false, so I'm interpreting it that there's some reason why no one would avoid making that decision. What's the reason?

There is a growing body of literature on interesting "near death experiences", or NDE's, which suggest the phenomenon is universal across the world's races and religions, with even little children having them. So if this is a clue, it's likely whatever happens to you after death doesn't depend on a belief in a particular god. On the other hand, the quality of how you treat other people in this life might actually make a difference in the next, according to a fraction of the reports.

 

[Liquid]

We do not yet know the true power of the human brain on a subconscious level, how perceptions of reality can be changed.

To attribute NDEs or OOBEs to god is as grossly erroneous as attributing the tides to god.

 

[BobK]

You're still avoiding the question.

He does that. A lot. Misdirection, changing the subject, going off on a tangent, all things he's done in this thread. Just look at the whole Exodus thing, where he was asked to provide evidence for a million or more Jewish slaves in Egypt. Jewish slaves. Not just Jews. Not just slaves. Jewish slaves. Numbering over a million. Lots of evidence for Jews in ancient Egypt. Some evidence for slaves in Egypt. Not a shred of evidence for Jewish slaves in Egypt, especially not numbering a million or so. Just things like "well here's a list of names, some of which sound sort of Jewish".

 

[Scaff]

I believe in God because I do not want to go to hell. The way South Park portrays hell is bad enough with Sadam Hussein, Satan, Hitler, and the weirdo version of Michael Jackson. The real Hell is 1 Million times worse than the South Park Hell.

What if you have opted for the wrong god? Or the wrong version of your god?

 

[dxld]

What if you have opted for the wrong god? Or the wrong version of your god?

Almost all versions of Christianity have flaws some worse than others, yet if the basic foundation of Christs teachings remain, they have a chance in entering heaven. The Jews will enter heaven if they follow the laws of God. A compassionate Muslim may also have a chance, especially if that Muslim has compassionate Love for the Jews and Christians. Even a Buddhist who leads a good life may find who God really is.

Christs most important lesson was to "To Love one another"

So any of those so called Christians who preach hatred of Gays will not enter heaven. Any of those Muslims who preach hatred of Jews or Christians will not enter heaven.

This may sound like a riddle but really it's a simple riddle and I have no intention of misdirection.

"Love is the key to all things"

 

[Carbonox]

@dxld: Hell is nothing more than a concept created to scare people into believing.

 

[Dennisch]

@dxld: Hell is nothing more than a concept created to scare people into believing.

Looks like it is working.

 

[Scaff]

So any of those so called Christians who preach hatred of Gays will not enter heaven. Any of those Muslims who preach hatred of Jews or Christians will not enter heaven.

What if these people repent on their death beds?

 

[Famine]

Almost all versions of Christianity have flaws some worse than others, yet if the basic foundation of Christs teachings remain, they have a chance in entering heaven. The Jews will enter heaven if they follow the laws of God. A compassionate Muslim may also have a chance, especially if that Muslim has compassionate Love for the Jews and Christians. Even a Buddhist who leads a good life may find who God really is.

Christs most important lesson was to "To Love one another"

So any of those so called Christians who preach hatred of Gays will not enter heaven. Any of those Muslims who preach hatred of Jews or Christians will not enter heaven.

This may sound like a riddle but really it's a simple riddle and I have no intention of misdirection.

"Love is the key to all things"

And atheists who hate no-one?


Oh wait, we're not allowed into any afterlife anywhere because of not believing in any gods.

 

[dxld]

@dxld: Hell is nothing more than a concept created to scare people into believing.

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake:some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2

 

[Dotini]

Oh wait, we're not allowed into any afterlife anywhere because of not believing in any gods.

As an agnostic, I'm not personally betting on an afterlife. But since atheists as well as every other kind of people report NDE's, if there is an afterlife as reported, atheists will experience it equally along with everyone else. So if there is one, there's no avoiding it.

 

[Famine]

NDEs aren't evidence of an afterlife. They're evidence of neurochemistry during high stress incidents - and can and have been replicated in control conditions.

Which only means that, for the large part, most people who are not brain-compromised can probably experience an NDE - not that they'll experience a shared afterlife. I guess the brain damaged offend God or something.

 

[Liquid]

NDEs aren't evidence of an afterlife. They're evidence of neurochemistry during high stress incidents - and can and have been replicated in control conditions.

Famine always has a way of holding an opinion or expressing a viewpoint similar to me but expressing it in simple but magnificent terms. Kudos.

Anybody who claims to know what happens in life after death is a liar or a fool.

 

[Dotini]

Anybody who claims to know what happens in life after death is a liar or a fool.

Yep, that's essentially correct, although yours is a rather crude and insensitive way of saying that we don't know; it's a mystery to us. All we have on the one hand are the reports of those who've been to the vestibule, antechamber or parlour room of death - the NDE state - and returned. And on the other hand we have the fervent reductionist insistence of western medicine that no form consciousness can exist other than that supplied by the body parts, despite the fact that consciousness has never been satisfactorily explained, and itself remains a mystery even in the living.

Even though I'm not personally persuaded of an afterlife, it would never occur to me call the overwhelming bulk of humanity who do believe in afterlife "liars and fools". I choose to remember that the way we treat others, and how others view us, defines our lives much more completely that what we spin to ourselves and our little circle of the like-minded.

 

[Famine]

All we have on the one hand are the reports of those who've been to the vestibule, antechamber or parlour room of death - the NDE state - and returned. And on the other hand we have the

exact same reports in control conditions with no actual risk of death.

 

[Dotini]

exact same reports in control conditions with no actual risk of death.

I've read a number of books on NDE's, consciousness and induced hallucinatory states with drugs or electromagnetic stimulation (Persinger et al). But I'm not current on either the latest NDE studies or the study to which you refer. A link to the pdf of the paper to which you refer above would be appreciated.

 

[Famine]

It's not very current - it involved spinning down people in a centrifuge in the 60s.

 

[Imari]

Even though I'm not personally persuaded of an afterlife, it would never occur to me call the overwhelming bulk of humanity who do believe in afterlife "liars and fools".

Maybe you wouldn't out of politeness, but it's hardly inaccurate. Anyone who claims to have concrete knowledge of the afterlife is either a liar or a fool. That's just calling a spade a spade.

In the real world you probably wouldn't say it to someone's face, but here I don't think there's anything wrong with being blunt. At the very least you understand his point clearly.


It's probably worth noting that Liquid was referring to people who claimed to know, as opposed to people who simply believe. There's a small difference there, some people are able to believe but are aware that their beliefs are (more or less by definition) unsubstantiated and therefore don't insist on them to others.


There's a bit of an overview by the science guy on the local state funded radio station.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/03/08/1866095.htm

There's interesting things around about the experiments that they did on fighter pilots and such with centrifuges, but I'll let Famine get into that more if he wants to. It does seem however that there's no particular evidence for these experiences being linked specifically to death, they're linked to specific brain circumstances that commonly happen when people are dying but can also happen at other times. There's no particular need for any supernatural (not using the word as ghostly, just outside of the natural) explanation.

 

[ScouserInExile]

I believe in God because I do not want to go to hell. The way South Park portrays hell is bad enough with Sadam Hussein, Satan, Hitler, and the weirdo version of Michael Jackson. The real Hell is 1 Million times worse than the South Park Hell.

Hang on. You believe in a god to avoid going to hell? But, if you didn't believe in a god, you wouldn't believe in hell either. So why subject yourself to that worry?

Also, you keep mentioning love as the driving force of your faith, yet you are saying you only believe out of fear. Is that not a touch contradictory?

 

[dxld]

Hang on. You believe in a god to avoid going to hell? But, if you didn't believe in a god, you wouldn't believe in hell either. So why subject yourself to that worry?

Also, you keep mentioning love as the driving force of your faith, yet you are saying you only believe out of fear. Is that not a touch contradictory?

I did not say only because of fear. You haven't been reading or paying attention to any of my previous posts.

 

[ScouserInExile]

I did not say only because of fear. .

I believe in God because I do not want to go to hell.

You must be able to see where my confusion lies?

 

[dxld]

You must be able to see where my confusion lies?

Yes, you only read one of my posts. The fear of hell is only one aspect of my beliefs. You missed all I have been posting about from the Covenant between God and Abraham to the blessing of the the Jewish descendants of Abraham, to Moses and the freedom of Hebrew Slaves in Egypt, to the oncoming of Christ who comes through the Jewish bloodline.
To this day Jews are blessed in many fields of study and careers, from actors,movie directors, singers, scientists, politicians, lawyers, businesmen, accounting and finance, sports, martial arts...yadayadayada.....
My belief and Love of Christ is from all that is fulfilled in the Old Testament, and all that is written in the New Testament.
To paraphrase what I said before, it would take a long time to explain, with all my life experiences, and all that I have learned to explain why I have come to love the heavenly father.

 

[Danoff]

My belief and Love of Christ is from all that is fulfilled in the Old Testament, and all that is written in the New Testament.

You have to admit though, your God is kindof a wackjob sadist. I mean, a lot of what he (it) "said" in the OT is absolutely barbaric. If that God really did exist, I don't think I'd want to follow it. All the stoning and raping and persecution and torture... over some pretty benign behavior. Your God seems to get really really angry and evil the moment it detects someone enjoying themselves in the slightest, and heaven forbid someone prepare the wrong food, or the right food the wrong way. It also seemed to care a great deal about the way people harvested crops. Good thing Christ came along and talked some sense into it, because it is one foul tempered God.

 

[HaerBev]

All those humans living under the divine punishement, if you're not a good believer, eternal torture awaits you, will always sounds strange to me. I was forced to celebrate the christian god when I was young, later debaptised and proud of it. I don't need the master and slave way of thinking to dominate my life.

I'm not saying that I'm the truth, only my vision.

 

[dxld]

All those humans living under the divine punishement, if you're not a good believer, eternal torture awaits you, will always sounds strange to me. I was forced to celebrate the christian god when I was young, later debaptised and proud of it. I don't need the master and slave way of thinking to dominate my life.

I'm not saying that I'm the truth, only my vision.

What if you think of your belief in God as a Parent Child relationship?

 

[NoBloodyName]

If there is a god,we wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation now would we?
For those that believe there is a god,good for you as that's what you've been brought up with.
Heck,I was in the same boat when I was growing up,then I matured and started asking questions.
And unfortunately,there were more questions than answers.
Then you start having doubts of said god.
More and more questions mount,and eventually you become a non believer.
Simple as that(for those who are willing or brave enough to ask questions).

I believe in God because I do not want to go to hell. The way South Park portrays hell is bad enough with Sadam Hussein, Satan, Hitler, and the weirdo version of Michael Jackson. The real Hell is 1 Million times worse than the South Park Hell.

LMAO
You can't be serious right???
Where did you read about this hell thing?
Do you even know if such a place exists?

The real Hell is 1 Million times worse than the South Park Hell.

Oh wait,you've been there?
If so,please provide proof.
No,the bible is not enough.
I need physical/visual proof.
No proof?
Then it does not exist my friend, simple as that.
I'm sorry to say but it sounds like you've been brainwashed into believing a place that does not exist.

You have to admit though, your God is kindof a wackjob sadist. I mean, a lot of what he (it) "said" in the OT is absolutely barbaric. If that God really did exist, I don't think I'd want to follow it. All the stoning and raping and persecution and torture... over some pretty benign behavior. Your God seems to get really really angry and evil the moment it detects someone enjoying themselves in the slightest, and heaven forbid someone prepare the wrong food, or the right food the wrong way. It also seemed to care a great deal about the way people harvested crops. Good thing Christ came along and talked some sense into it, because it is one foul tempered God.

Common sense tells me that ain't a god but a man,and an evil one at that.

To paraphrase what I said before, it would take a long time to explain, with all my life experiences, and all that I have learned to explain why I have come to love the heavenly father.

Who's the heavenly father?
Does he exist?
If you believe in the heavenly father,you might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster too.

Almost all versions of Christianity have flaws some worse than others, yet if the basic foundation of Christs teachings remain, they have a chance in entering heaven.

Whoa,first you say there's a hell and now a heaven?.
Again,please provide proof.

The Jews will enter heaven if they follow the laws of God. A compassionate Muslim may also have a chance, especially if that Muslim has compassionate Love for the Jews and Christians. Even a Buddhist who leads a good life may find who God really is.

So any of those so called Christians who preach hatred of Gays will not enter heaven. Any of those Muslims who preach hatred of Jews or Christians will not enter heaven.

How the heck do you know who goes where? lol
You're making this up as you go along right? lol

Thru Noah came Abraham who was a man who loved God, and God made a convenant with Abraham to make his people more numerous than the Stars

That right there tells me this ain't no god,but a man.
Make more humans than the stars??
Don't make me laugh.
They would not say that then if they knew what we know now about how vast the universe is.

I'm Filipino not Jewish, the Jews are not superior to Filipinos or any other race, they simply are Gods Chosen people he Loved first. Every subsequent race is the the Sibling of the Jews, whether they are older like the Arabs or Younger like the French. so if you Love God as the father, you should also love your Jewish Siblings.

You make it sound like your "god" has a favouritism side to him?
Sounds to me more like thoughts of a man than a god.

...this is why I stated I have more to say. the The Bible also tells us to give the Jews blessing and you will be blessed as well, curse the Jews and you will be cursed.

What kind of a sadistic god puts a curse on beings?

I will stand on my position that the Bible teaches there is nothing wrong with being a Slave, it is the Slave Masters who are the ones who are in the the wrong. The Bible does not encourage Slavery, but it encourages passive restraint until the opportunity of freedom arises.

Dude,first you say the bible says it's ok being a slave,then say it does not encourage slavery???
That's the most contradictory thing i've ever heard!.

 

[dxld]

If there is a god,we wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation now would we?
For those that believe there is a god,good for you as that's what you've been brought up with.
Heck,I was in the same boat when I was growing up,then I matured and started asking questions.
And unfortunately,there were more questions than answers.
Then you start having doubts of said god.
More and more questions mount,and eventually you become a non believer.
Simple as that(for those who are willing or brave enough to ask questions).


LMAO
You can't be serious right???
Where did you read about this hell thing?
Do you even know if such a place exists?

Oh wait,you've been there?
If so,please provide proof.
No,the bible is not enough.
I need physical/visual proof.
No proof?
Then it does not exist my friend, simple as that.
I'm sorry to say but it sounds like you've been brainwashed into believing a place that does not exist.

Common sense tells me that ain't a god but a man,and an evil one at that.

Who's the heavenly father?
Does he exist?
If you believe in the heavenly father,you might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster too.

Whoa,first you say there's a hell and now a heaven?.
Again,please provide proof.


How the heck do you know who goes where? lol
You're making this up as you go along right? lol

That right there tells me this ain't no god,but a man.
Make more humans than the stars??
Don't make me laugh.
They would not say that then if they knew what we know now about how vast the universe is.

You laugh at all my beliefs and you call me a friend? God created the whole Universe and that is how we are now in existence on this earth. You ask me if Heaven and Hell exist and to prove it. Well let me ask you, can you prove Love and Hate exist? Logically and Scientifically you can't, they are intangible but we know Love and Hate exist.

What we know of heaven and hell is intangible as well. Heaven is a place and a mindstate of Love and Goodness, while hell is a place and a mindstate of Hate and suffering. I have seen heavenly places on this earth, and I've seen Hell on earth. i've been to hot barren deserts in the middle east so hellishly hot only 15 minutes outside will sap your energy for the whole day. I've experienced heavenly times in Hawaii when it rains just enough to irrigate the grass and the trees to bright green, while the rest of the days are filled with rainbows or clear blue skies.

So you say good for us who believe in God, yet you still laugh at us who believe? What moral standard do you have that allows you to ridicule someone who believes while you do not believe?

And as far as Slavery, the Bible talks of slavery, yet it deals with Slavery, it does not deny it's existence because slavery was practice amongst many nations of the time. The bible instructs slave owners to be fair to slaves, when slave owners were mistreated, it was the slave owner who was punished. When the bible describes the Hebrews under slavery in Egypt, they are shown to be suffering under that slavery. Moses demanded the freedom of the Hebrew Slaves, and God Punished the Pharoah for not releasing the Slaves. So tell me how does this promote slavery??? Even if you believe the story was not real, the story itself went against the normal standards of the time.

So are you going to Laugh at the Jewish people who hold this time in history as one a foundation of their beliefs?

What do you believe in? Science, Philosophy, Legalization of Marijuana? Can Science find the origin of Love?

 

[Imari]

Logically and Scientifically you can't, they are intangible but we know Love and Hate exist.

Do we now?

Would you like to clarify what you think Love and Hate are? No proof required or anything, just describe what you actually mean by those words.

For me they're merely verbal shortcuts for a range of human behaviours. There is no one thing I would point to and say "that's Love".

So you say good for us who believe in God, yet you still laugh at us who believe? What moral standard do you have that allows you to ridicule someone who believes while you do not believe?

The same one that Christians have, I assume. There's quite a lot of stuff in the bible about not tolerating other religions.

(To be fair, most religions have something like this, not just Christianity.)

Can Science find the origin of Love?

Ah, good one. Bring up a claim that he never made and ask him to prove it.

 

[Furinkazen]

One of my friends jokingly says I will go to hell as I am atheist. I always say "Sure, send me a postcard!"

Love can be proved by your feelings towards someone. So can hate. Feelings and emotions are provable as you can see them in plain view. Heaven and hell however is a perception. One persons idea of heaven maybe another individuals view of Hell.

 

[orimarc]

Although this is pure speculation, and probably better suited for other thread (*cough* C vs E *cough), couldn't the origin of love simply be part of the Four Fs of evolution? (as in fighting, fleeing, feeding and fornicating)

Love is the way our reptilian brain says "THIS PERSON SEEMS GOOD FOR REPRODUCTION"