Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 616 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.2%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,035 51.3%

  • Total voters
    2,018
I'm not lost in anything, nor have I missed your point. My response was addressed directly to the question as it was worded, and also included the information that SCJ's response was a doctrinally correct answer to the question as it was worded. I suggest if you continue to tell me why it wasn't an answer, you use a modifier such as 'acceptable' answer. Otherwise I might get the mistaken impression that you are trying to limit the definition of 'answer'. It took this long for anyone to grudgingly admit that I am correct "in a rudimentary technical sense", and that is the only sense I intended it to be taken in, which I mistakenly thought would be obvious.

Now you're just digging in for the sake of preserving appearances. You were wrong, time to man up and move on. A "doctrinally correct" lack of response doesn't suddenly make it a response. It's still just as devoid of meaning, or substance, or value. A "doctrinally correct" evasion is an evasion.
 
I do believe but in the way that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all the same god therefore I must be a mix of the three religions. I do not practice anything, but I feel for myself it is important to have that belief. I also find it great that people will stand by their beliefs of religion or no religion as long as you do not try to force it down my throat or cut my head off. I like my head where it was place in birth, on top of my neck and torso.
 
May I ask why?
It is important mostly because my family was very strong Christians (not crazy but strong beliefs) so it was hard to just drop religion. I realized that I dislike organized religion as it seems to be geared towards this is how it is now don't disagree or question it. So now I do not really practice. I hold my beliefs as a reason I am who I am. They help shape me just as everyone else has beliefs that shape them. I think it is important for people to have some sort of beliefs (religious or not) that they strongly (but respectfully) support as it helps them as a person. Then again, this is all just what works for me! :)
 
It is important mostly because my family was very strong Christians (not crazy but strong beliefs) so it was hard to just drop religion. I realized that I dislike organized religion as it seems to be geared towards this is how it is now don't disagree or question it. So now I do not really practice. I hold my beliefs as a reason I am who I am. They help shape me just as everyone else has beliefs that shape them.

I don't.

I think it is important for people to have some sort of beliefs (religious or not) that they strongly (but respectfully) support as it helps them as a person. Then again, this is all just what works for me! :)

All you really did was restate your position. Why is it important for people to believe something?
 
I don't.



All you really did was restate your position. Why is it important for people to believe something?
Believe in anything? I am not just speaking religious. Beliefs could be that men and women are equal. Goats and humans are equal. Freedom of speech is great. Censored press is wonderful. Those are all non-religious beliefs. For me my beliefs, religious or non-religious shape me as a person. That is why all of my beliefs are important to me.
 
Believe in anything? I am not just speaking religious. Beliefs could be that men and women are equal. Goats and humans are equal. Freedom of speech is great. Censored press is wonderful. Those are all non-religious beliefs.
They are - and it is not necessary for anyone to hold them.
You don't believe in right and wrong? Morals and ethics?
Why do they need to be beliefs?

A rational moral and ethical code is anything but a belief.


Belief is what we have when we have an absence of facts and rationality. Of course you can also believe in facts if you want - you can believe in anything you wish to believe in - but that doesn't mean that everyone else who accepts them to be true also believes in them.
 
No, rationality is not subjective. Rationality is objective.

If it is not objective it is not rational.

That sounds a little too absolute to me. But I fear this is just going to end up in discussion about terminology, you brought the term "rational" into the conversation and it seems I've then used it in an unsuitable context. Either way, I do not think everyone on the planet maintains exactly the same idea of what is right and wrong, therefore it is reasonable for a person to state they believe x to be okay, but not y, and for someone else to have the opposite opinions. But maybe I'm being to casual in my use of the word believe/belief.

Famine covered this nicely already (and not for the first time), but morals and ethics don't require belief at all. Quite a lot of it is handled by the rationale of "I don't want others to do x, y, and z to me, therefore I won't do x, y, and z to them."

Since consequences are subjective, how is that rational? Doing X, Y or Z to someone doesn't mean X, Y or Z will happen to you. A, B and, C might... but then you might get away with it scot-free too.
 
... They help shape me just as everyone else has beliefs that shape them....

As others have said, "belief" is not necessary, especially when there is evidence to support whatever is being believed in.

For example, science doesn't "believe" stuff. Gravity is not a held belief, there is evidence to support it. Likewise the electromagnetic theories. That's why it is called a "theory", because it is supported by evidence.

So back to your contention that "every one else has beliefs". I don't.

I don't believe that moral behavior is good. There is evidence that there are benefits to behaving morally. Many primates have an innate sense of morality that governs certain behavior.

Maybe there is confusion due to commonly sloppy use of the terms "belief" and "theory". "Belief" is conviction or opinion, and is often associated with lack of evidence. "Theory" is a system of ideas intended to explain observations.

Since consequences are subjective, how is that rational? Doing X, Y or Z to someone doesn't mean X, Y or Z will happen to you. A, B and, C might... but then you might get away with it scot-free too.

The bolded words illustrate the breakdown of morality. I put it to you that there are demonstrable evidences that it's better to treat people as you'd prefer to be treated than to hope you can get away with things scot-free. Humans and other primates have figured this out without a god telling them.
 
As others have said, "belief" is not necessary, especially when there is evidence to support whatever is being believed in.

For example, science doesn't "believe" stuff. Gravity is not a held belief, there is evidence to support it. Likewise the electromagnetic theories. That's why it is called a "theory", because it is supported by evidence.

So back to your contention that "every one else has beliefs". I don't.

I don't believe that moral behavior is good. There is evidence that there are benefits to behaving morally. Many primates have an innate sense of morality that governs certain behavior.

Maybe there is confusion due to commonly sloppy use of the terms "belief" and "theory". "Belief" is conviction or opinion, and is often associated with lack of evidence. "Theory" is a system of ideas intended to explain observations.

You state a strong point. I retract my statement that everyone has beliefs. I still feel that belief in a religion has help me in a way I do not think I can describe (partly because I have very poor writing skills).
 
The bolded words illustrate the breakdown of morality. I put it to you that there are demonstrable evidences that it's better to treat people as you'd prefer to be treated than to hope you can get away with things scot-free. Humans and other primates have figured this out without a god telling them.

It's not about hope, it's about circumstances. Having sex with a 12 year old in different parts of the world will yield different consequences, but objectively the only consequence will be what the local law enforcement does. I'm sure plenty of people would claim to "believe" that act to be wrong if you asked around here.

Also... I didn't say they needed God to tell them, read my post, I already stated that's not what I was saying...
 
That sounds a little too absolute to me.
That's rather the point...
But I fear this is just going to end up in discussion about terminology, you brought the term "rational" into the conversation and it seems I've then used it in an unsuitable context.
Sort of. You've used it interchangeably with "thought". Maybe "reasoning".

People do not reason the same way as one another, that's for sure - and what may seem reasonable to someone may seem unreasonable to someone else. But their reasoning can be both rational and irrational.

Beliefs are an example of something irrational. It's not rational to hold a position on something in spite of facts. Belief can be both reasonable and unreasonable though. In our part of the world it's reasonable to believe that you should be nice to one another because God commands it, but unreasonable to believe that you should throw homosexuals off tall buildings because God commands it - yet in other parts of the world it's wholly reasonable to throw homosexuals off tall buildings because God commands it. Both are irrational.
Either way, I do not think everyone on the planet maintains exactly the same idea of what is right and wrong, therefore it is reasonable for a person to state they believe x to be okay, but not y, and for someone else to have the opposite opinions. But maybe I'm being to casual in my use of the word believe/belief.
That's all entirely true - but it doesn't mean that if the first person thinking that X is okay and Y is not is automatically a belief. They may have arrived at that position rationally.

You can't arrive at a false position rationally, but you can reasonably. You can also reasonably arrive at a true position, but that doesn't make the reasoning correct. It's only correct if it has been reached rationally.
Since consequences are subjective, how is that rational? Doing X, Y or Z to someone doesn't mean X, Y or Z will happen to you. A, B and, C might... but then you might get away with it scot-free too.
You might have missed the implication there. It's not that you might get it done back to you, but that the value judgement that you can use greater force to impose your will is implicitly subjective.
 
You state a strong point. I retract my statement that everyone has beliefs. I still feel that belief in a religion has help me in a way I do not think I can describe (partly because I have very poor writing skills).

Thank you. It may well be that your religious beliefs were instilled in you before your brain was sufficiently developed and experienced to think critically. We are wired in our early years to trust the advice of our elders implicitly, and when we question their authority, they are often good at providing reinforcement of their authority.

That's often good because advice such as "don't touch the stove", or "don't walk into the swimming pool" are best not questioned when we are young.

Sadly, religious ideas are injected into malleable minds via the same path. For many years, I, like you, could not articulate why I felt that having religious beliefs was good for me. Once I managed to figure out that they were not necessary, that's when I realized that I could live a better life without religion/god breathing down my neck.

But I realize that had my elders been more forceful in injecting religion into my immature brain, I might never have succeeded in getting it out again, even though I could never explain why it should be there.

It's not about hope, it's about circumstances. Having sex with a 12 year old in different parts of the world will yield different consequences, but objectively the only consequence will be what the local law enforcement does. I'm sure plenty of people would claim to "believe" that act to be wrong if you asked around here.

Also... I didn't say they needed God to tell them, read my post, I already stated that's not what I was saying...

I only made the god connection because of the context of the thread title, not your posting. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

From a moral point of view, I regard the act of having sex with a 12 year old as being "immoral", just as I regard the insertion of evidenceless belief systems into young minds as "immoral". It's too soon in the development process.

My thinking goes like this. Looking back, would I want an adult to have the right to either have sex with me based on their authority, or force ideas without evidence upon me based on their authority at that tender age?

Conversely, would I want to have had lessons in critical thinking at the age of 12?

Which of the above sounds like they are beneficial or damaging acts?
 
@Famine All that makes some sense, but I'll admit I'm not joining all the dots... so working backwards...

Some people only do what they believe to be right, some people do what is right.

They really need to work some examples of this into middle school education, what's PSRE called these days?

Conversely, would I want to have had lessons in critical thinking at the age of 12?

Which of the above sounds like they are beneficial or damaging acts?

Funnily enough I was typing the last line above when the alert came through that you responded :D Being taught how to think though... that would be dangerous I'm sure... and probably at the expense of Art class :D
 
@Famine All that makes some sense, but I'll admit I'm not joining all the dots... so working backwards...

Some people only do what they believe to be right, some people do what is right.
Yes.

And what people believe to be right might actually be right. I mean, it'd be nice if people arrived at the conclusion of what is right by the same rational path - then one might assume they'd arrive at other conclusions of what is right rationally also - but sometimes the difference doesn't really matter.
They really need to work some examples of this into middle school education, what's PSRE called these days?
It's a fair point. The problem is that ethics is largely taught by RE teachers - and religion and ethics don't have a happy history together...
 
@Famine All that makes some sense, but I'll admit I'm not joining all the dots... so working backwards...

Some people only do what they believe to be right, some people do what is right.

They really need to work some examples of this into middle school education, what's PSRE called these days?

Just to expand on @Famine's point a bit, morality can be defined as the observation of human rights, and human rights stem from rationality (logic). Morality, of course, is defined lots of different ways by lots of different people, but human rights exist as an objective framework on which to base morality.
 
Just to expand on @Famine's point a bit, morality can be defined as the observation of human rights, and human rights stem from rationality (logic). Morality, of course, is defined lots of different ways by lots of different people, but human rights exist as an objective framework on which to base morality.

So is it reasonable to apply Human rights to Animals? or does morality only extend to the treatment of humans (he says expecting to learn that the definition of morality applies only to humans)
 
So is it reasonable to apply Human rights to Animals? or does morality only extend to the treatment of humans (he says expecting to learn that the definition of morality applies only to humans)

Rights extend to animals to the extent that they can observe rights. Most animals are incapable of the brain functions required to process and observe rights. However, if we determine that some animals are capable of this (say dolphins, elephants, or other primates), they would have rights to the extent that they can. The same principle applies to humans. To the extend that we demonstrate an inability to observe the rights of others we are incarcerated, executed, or institutionalized. The only difference is that we can scientifically know for certain that some animals are incapable of this, while humans we know for certain are capable (if they're healthy).
 
Now you're just digging in for the sake of preserving appearances. You were wrong, time to man up and move on. A "doctrinally correct" lack of response doesn't suddenly make it a response. It's still just as devoid of meaning, or substance, or value. A "doctrinally correct" evasion is an evasion.
Nope. the first thought that came to mind when reading that post was: "of course it's an answer". As for @SCJ, I don't know whether it was an evasion or what. Ultimately, for believers, it does come down to 'because it pleases God to do it that way and because I am not God I do not know why'.

So what purpose does the concept of God serve in a world where all phenomena are explained by other systems?
To believers, God is not a 'concept', and I think that most believers can cite some experience that reinforces their belief. When speaking of competing interpretations of fact, I was speaking in terms of free-will, choosing to believe or not. Science can supply facts, but science is not a person. Science cannot supply a theory to explain observed facts, people do that. And people can be wrong. It is quite possible for two persons to interpret the same facts differently. Competing theories are common.
Most believers probably can cite some subjective event that provides sufficient proof that God exists. Objectivity can disagree, but cannot prove them wrong. As far as proof/disproof is concerned, objectivity has nothing.
Remember that I for one believe that God interacts with His universe all the time, and as He created the universe, science is part of that creation.

It makes some people feel good who wouldn't otherwise.
Of course there is a psychological component to it, but there is a psychological component to anything that makes one 'feel good'.
 
To believers, God is not a 'concept', and I think that most believers can cite some experience that reinforces their belief.

Sigh. You're picking issue with the words I used instead of just answering the question.

Of course I wrote it like that. I'm not a believer and I don't pretend to be. I feel disingenuous if I write as though I were a believer without making it explicitly clear that I'm doing so. So mostly, I just write from my own point of view. I thought that the phrase "concept of God" was sufficiently non-specific to be understandable and accessable to both believers and non-believers, even though it wasn't what they might have written themselves.

I was wrong.

Let me write it in your language and see if it's easier for you:

What purpose does God serve in a world where all phenomena are explained by other systems?*

I'm also going to quote a later part of your post because I think it's relevant to this line of discussion as well.

Remember that I for one believe that God interacts with His universe all the time, and as He created the universe, science is part of that creation.

If God interacts with His universe all the time, how do you reconcile that with the statement that all phenomena can be explained by other systems?*

Science can supply facts, but science is not a person. Science cannot supply a theory to explain observed facts, people do that.

The way you've written this I suspect there's some misunderstanding as to what exactly science does.

I apologise if you already know what I'm about to write. It's not intended to be patronising, but I think we need to start off by ensuring that we're both on the same page. Low level disagreements on how science works will derail any conversation before we get anywhere useful.

Science can not supply facts. Observations supply facts. The scientific method outlines best practises for taking observations, but they're not hard and fast rules. You take what information you can get when you can get it.

Science or the scientific method never claims to supply theories, or hypotheses, or any other act that is performed by humans. As you pointed out, somewhat redundantly, science is not a person. No one has ever claimed that it was.

The scientific method is at heart a group of best practises for obtaining and interpreting data. It's the set of ways that humans have found best allows a person to avoid false conclusions, if applied correctly. It's not infallible, but even wrong conclusions can usually be understood in retrospect as a result of limited information.

That's all it is, a tool that people use. Don't start blaming the spanner for the mechanic fixing your car wrong.

And people can be wrong. It is quite possible for two persons to interpret the same facts differently. Competing theories are common.

Firstly, people can always be wrong. Scientists are almost always wrong, because there's simply not enough information.

The only time they can be unequivocally right is when they're right by definition, like if I define the speed of light in a vacuum to be 47 twinkletoes per second. Even if I'm not exactly sure how fast light goes in a vacuum, I can still say that it's 47 twinkletoes per second, and that will always be correct even as our understanding of the actual speed of light become more accurate.

We know damn well that we can never say anything with absolute certainty. Much better than you do, I suspect.

It's entirely possible for two people to interpret the same facts differently. Again, it happens all the time. That's why peer review exists. However, at any given time there's usually only one best explanation.

Here I'm going to be technical. I apologise for picking issue with words given what I've said already earlier in this post, but I think it's an important distinction to make.

There is a difference between a hypothesis and a theory.

Unfortunately, in common language they're basically synonyms, and the media tends to make this mistake as well. However, generally a hypothesis is any proposed system that explains a given set of observations. A theory is the proposed system which best explains a given set of observations.

So while there are many hypotheses of gravity, there's only one theory of gravity that best explains all current observations of gravity. That theory may not be the best explanation tomorrow when new observations are added, but that's the nature of how the scientific method adapts to new information.

There are occasionally multiple theories on a given topic, when they all sufficiently explain observed phenomena but differ on observations that cannot or have not been made yet. That's kind of an edge case though, as for all intents and purposes they make identical predictions based on what we currently know.

Just because people can be wrong, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the scientific method. A bad mechanic isn't bad because his tools are bad. Two people interpreting facts differently is the basis of scientific advancement. Competing theories are not common (in fact, not a thing at all), but competing hypotheses are, and again are the basis of scientific advancement.

Most believers probably can cite some subjective event that provides sufficient proof that God exists. Objectivity can disagree, but cannot prove them wrong. As far as proof/disproof is concerned, objectivity has nothing.

That's not how it works. The person making the claim is the one required to provide proof.

Please read up on Russell's Teapot, if you're not already familiar with it. It's an excellent example of a basic assumption of how people view the world, and how some people choose to only apply the assumption arbitrarily.


*I'm sorry for the long post, but most of it doesn't need reply. I'm just trying to provide information so that we can hopefully skip the "silly misunderstandings" stage of the conversation, and move on to the interesting bit. That being the bit where I learn more about the questions I asked, marked with asterisks.
 
Sigh. You're picking issue with the words I used instead of just answering the question.
As you have cleared up any confusion about using the phrase "Concept of God", it works fine for me.

If God interacts with His universe all the time, how do you reconcile that with the statement that all phenomena can be explained by other systems?*
Because it pleases Him to work in an unverifiable manner. The extent of that interaction is impossible to ascertain as we have no control-universe to compare with ours, but I do believe that interaction takes place. IMO God does not routinely interfere with the physical universe, and if He does, it is not blatant. For example: The western United States is experiencing prolonged severe drought. Some might say that it is punishment for our sins, or that it has something to do with the end of the world. That may be so, but normal variation in wind patterns also explains it nicely. On a much smaller scale, in my own experience related earlier in this thread, there certainly seemed to be physical effects that could have been measured had observations been taken, but they would not have answered the question "was that from God?"

What purpose does God serve in a world where all phenomena are explained by other systems?*
Well, It's nice to know God likes me, the Bible has some neat stuff, and it helps me cope when life kind of sucks, usually by reminding me that I'm pretty small-scale and I'll get over it. There's that salvation thing, but I can't prove God exists, and you can't prove he doesn't, we can't know what influence God may have (or not), so why bother asking?

The way you've written this I suspect there's some misunderstanding as to what exactly science does.
Sorry to have caused you to expound needlessly, there is no confusion about what science does, but there is occasional amusement reading what scientists say.

That's what I said. You first impulse was wrong because you didn't think it through.
:lol:
 
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