Do you believe in God?

[Touring Mars]

That is impossible

Wait... so you're saying that one of these infallible texts is... wrong!?

 

[Haulin_Hebrew]

Yes! He drives A #44 Silver Arrow, Just Kidding. Yes! There is too much order in the universe to believe that it all came from A big explosion.

 

[Scaff]

Yes! He drives A #44 Silver Arrow, Just Kidding. Yes! There is too much order in the universe to believe that it all came from A big explosion.

Why?

I would also question the universe being well ordered.

 

[Imari]

There is too much order in the universe to believe that it all came from A big explosion.

Have you seen the universe? The mostly empty mess with the odd burning clump of stuff?

It might look orderly to you when you look out the window and see a city, but on a universal scale it's really not.

That looks a lot like random noise to me.

 

[Haulin_Hebrew]

Have you seen the universe? The mostly empty mess with the odd burning clump of stuff?

It might look orderly to you when you look out the window and see a city, but on a universal scale it's really not.

View attachment 550108

That looks a lot like random noise to me.

That's what makes the Milky Way evidence for such A conclusion as mine, Why is it so different from the rest? How could it be so different from the rest? If Not engineered to be. And if engineered to be, then by whom is the next question? Some call it A Bang then Evolution which has major gaps in it, Some Say A creator being the complexity of it, either choice takes A leap of faith to believe, in my opinion it is more comprehensive to believe in A Creator establishing order, then A chaotic explosion. That is all.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Some Say A creator being the complexity of it, either choice takes A leap of faith to believe, in my opinion it is more comprehensive to believe in A Creator establishing order, then A chaotic explosion. That is all.

"I don't know, therefor God did it".

Same old story.

 

[JKgo]

"I don't know, therefor God did it".

...He works in mysterious ways, y'know.

 

[Huks]

That's what makes the Milky Way evidence for such A conclusion as mine, Why is it so different from the rest? How could it be so different from the rest?

How is the Milky Way so different from the rest? What makes it different from any other galaxy?

 

[dylansan]

"I don't know, therefor God did it".

Same old story.

I'm all for questioning beliefs, but I don't think responses like these are really encouraging open-mindedness.

@Haulin_Hebrew : In what way is the Milky way different from the rest? If you mean that there's cities here but not elsewhere, we can't really assume that. Earth is probably not unique in that respect, but until we can get very good pictures of the surfaces of planets in other solar systems (seems to be a far way off), we don't really know what's on most other planets. And especially ones with similar environments to Earth, since there aren't any like that in our solar system to compare to, but there are plenty much further away.

I'm curious what gaps you think exist in the big bang theory and evolution. Both theories explain and importantly predict observations of our universe, which would be very unlikely if they were nonsense or just guesses.

 

[Exorcet]

That's what makes the Milky Way evidence for such A conclusion as mine, Why is it so different from the rest?

The more we look, the less unique we are. Cataloguing and analyzing stars allowed us to compare our Sun to the rest of the population. Sun like stars aren't the most common, but they are quite abundant. Around 10% of the stellar population is class G like the sun. This is billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and many more throughout the universe. Later on we learned that planets are very common, and we've not only found them in our own galaxy but also seen hints of them in other galaxies. Among these planets are ones similar to Earth.

We even have metric for measuring how similar a planet is to Earth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Similarity_Index

This despite Earth like planets being relatively difficult for us to detect with current technology.

It's similar going up in scale too, as there are "galactic twins" to the Milky Way that we've found like NGC6744

http://www.space.com/11841-milky-spiral-galaxy-twins-photo.html

 

[RacerTed]

I believe in God rather than evolution due to the complexity of creation, there is not one person here who thinks his computer or his favorite race car just happened. It required thought and planning.

aaaand that's why I think God drives an '05 Ford GT! (and he might be thinkin' of gettin' a '16 also)

 

[LeMansAid]

....there is not one person here who thinks his computer or his favorite race car just happened. It required thought and planning.

"People make stuff, ergo God exists."

I'm sold.

 

[RacerTed]

"People make stuff, ergo God exists."

I'm sold.

Boy ya sure got me there! The human body and brain are by far more complex than a computer or a car but you'll believe that it just 'evolved' while a computer and a car had to be made.

I forget where I read it, perhaps earlier in this thread (we're talkin' years maybe) but aren't there like 200 things that have to be in place for life to exist on earth? Not some of those 200, but all of them?

 

[Exorcet]

I believe in God rather than evolution due to the complexity of creation, there is not one person here who thinks his computer or his favorite race car just happened. It required thought and planning.

"Just happening" is closer to religion though isn't it? Evolution didn't say "Let there be people".

You can also get quite good results without thought and planning:

 

[LeMansAid]

The human body and brain are by far more complex than a computer or a car but you'll believe that it just 'evolved' while a computer and a car had to be made.

Not really your place to tell me what I believe.

I forget where I read it, perhaps earlier in this thread (we're talkin' years maybe) but aren't there like 200 things that have to be in place for life to exist on earth? Not some of those 200, but all of them?

I'll take your word for it. Now, what's the magical number where an eventuality can be deemed to have happened by design? 200? 199? 1?

 

[RacerTed]

Not really your place to tell me what I believe.

Wouldn't take it like that, more like 'deducing' what you believe based on your reply.

I'll take your word for it. Now, what's the magical number where an eventuality can be deemed to have happened by design? 200? 199? 1?

No idea, but I do know the statistical probability of all this happening by chance is well beyond accepted numbers (hope I'm wording this well enough) of things that can happen by chance.

 

[dylansan]

Boy ya sure got me there! The human body and brain are by far more complex than a computer or a car but you'll believe that it just 'evolved' while a computer and a car had to be made.

Even outside of evolution, simple parameters can often lead to very complex things. Take Conway's game of life, for example. All it is is a set of simple rules that determine whether a certain spot is black or white.

Go ahead, mess around with it. Scribble something, then hit "evolve" (This button just runs the next step over and over. It has nothing to do with evolution).

The results will contain lots of patterns and lots of order. Without starting with any specific design, you can get many interesting pieces with different behaviors. Now, I wouldn't argue that any of this is life, but then evolution isn't even possible in Conway's game. Evolution relies on several principles: variation, reproduction, and competition. While Conway's game includes lots of variation, and some competition, most patterns don't reproduce, instead remaining stable or changing into something completely different.

If you want to learn more about what evolution is about and what scientists actually claim (and you should, if you want to discuss it), there are many videos on the subject. Here's a good one:


(Note that this video doesn't explain how life increases in complexity, only how it changes. Evolution at its core only requires change over time, but does include explanations for complexity arising, too)

I think the biggest hurdle to get over with evolution is the fact that with small variations, it's hard to imagine such complexity arising. But remember that there's been a few billion years for it to take place, and small changes can add up quite a lot in that amount of time.

The simple fact is, it's very easy to create a simple simulation where "things" compete and reproduce with random variations, and without any guidance or "design" the things get more complex and more capable. Is it life? No. But since life exhibits these principles, it behaves similarly.

If you want to discuss it more we should move to the evolution thread.

 

[RacerTed]

"Just happening" is closer to religion though isn't it? Evolution didn't say "Let there be people".

You can also get quite good results without thought and planning:

No, believers believe that God took an active role in creating the universe. Just happening is more like Big Bang I would think.

 

[AspecBob]

I think the biggest hurdle to get over with evolution is the fact that with small variations, it's hard to imagine such complexity arising. But remember that there's been a few billion years for it to take place, and small changes can add up quite a lot in that amount of time.

I think right there is the main reason believers won't believe in evolution, because they don't see it happening in front of their eyes. The human mind cannot comprehend what billions of years mean, as it is so far outside the scale we are familiar with (from a few tenths of a second to about 100 years, I would think). But that's the amount of time required for going from amoebas to apes discussing things on an internet forum.

@RacerTed, there is this very interesting book by Richard Dawkins called The Blind Watchmaker that would help you find answers to your questions. (There is also a Kindle edition.)

 

[Scaff]

No, believers believe that God took an active role in creating the universe. Just happening is more like Big Bang I would think.

Except the big bang and evolution are not just wild hypothesis with no supporting evidence, quite the opposite.

Evolution in particular is a well tested theory (and a theory is not a guess - in case you are not aware), religious creationism had no testable evidence at all and requires blind faith that not just a God popped it all into existence, but that your specific God did it.

 

[Famine]

all and requires blind faith that not just a God popped it all into existence, but that your specific God did it.

Itself having a eternal existence with no origin.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I forget where I read it, perhaps earlier in this thread (we're talkin' years maybe) but aren't there like 200 things that have to be in place for life to exist on earth? Not some of those 200, but all of them?

Only 200? I'd expect that if you drilled down into the requirements there would be far more.

That's the thing about chance, though, if you throw enough dice eventually you'll get your own phone number. To get 200 life-factors correctly lined up you'd be very unlikely to do it with one planet. 10 planets? Still no. 200 billion planets... get my drift?

 

[Imari]

Boy ya sure got me there! The human body and brain are by far more complex than a computer or a car but you'll believe that it just 'evolved' while a computer and a car had to be made.

It's not about complexity. We can see computers and cars being made. There's a lot of evidence to support human evolution, and basically none for it being created other than "this is really complicated".

No idea, but I do know the statistical probability of all this happening by chance is well beyond accepted numbers (hope I'm wording this well enough) of things that can happen by chance.

Not really. The universe is a pretty big place. I know very large and very small numbers can be tough to wrap your head around, but it's not as cut and dried as you make it sound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

There are things that we would need to know the statistical probability of in order to sensibly evaluate this that we just don't know. How do you know how unlikely it is that an intelligent life form arises when you've only seen one?

Religionists tend to fall back on "you don't know, so I must be right". That's not correct. The best answer is the one that best fits available evidence and is able to be tested. "God made it" cannot be tested, because anything that is observed can be ascribed to God's actions.

There is no functional difference between a world that progressed from an unknown beginning through physical and causal principles, and one God made last Tuesday that simply looks exactly the same. As such, while the God hypothesis may be correct, it's impossible to know if it is and it's of absolutely no use for prediction anyway. Instead, it's far more useful to attempt to judge the universe on how it appears to be.

 

[Famine]

The universe is a pretty big place.

 

[Dennisch]

****tupled.

I like that.

 

[Danoff]

Yes, but not right away. There is a period of seven years where non-believers basically have free reign, and the Jews will try to live under Messianic Law again. The Jews gets 3 and a half years of relative peace (via a peace treaty, which according to many theologians, the one who broker the deal is the Anti-Christ), after that, the treaty gets broken, and Jews are killed nearly wholesale (with the exception of 144,000, who will be protected by Christ during this time period). Then God's judgment comes and kills off some of the Human population (we can't put an exact number on it.) It finally amounts to the Battle of Armageddon where Christ (and the believers who were raptured up with him) is to return to finish off the Jew's enemies and take his throne.

So, if I'm getting this straight (and there's a lot of really arbitrary ridiculous detail in there), the believers will never again be free to go kill the infidels according to Christianity. They were once, before Christ, but not again.

I still don't get how you guys don't understand, that the OT was for a specific nation, for a specific period.
Jesus Christ gave the New covenant for the world.

Interesting... which nation was Genesis and the ten commandments for?

He said, "Love the Lord your God, with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. All the laws hang on these two commands.
Basically, if any law contradicts these two commandments of love, then you must get rid of it.

So we have "thou shalt not kill" "love your neighbor as yourself" and "turn the other cheek" which effectively eliminates self-defense. Let's get rid of the second amendment here in the US, it has no point if you cannot defend yourself. "Love your neighbor as yourself" kinda gets in the way of "thou shalt not commit adultery", so I'm gonna go ahead and say Jesus is giving a free pass on that one. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors servants" is really torpedoed because you'd need to free your neighbor's servants if you love your neighbor (including servants) as yourself.

Which commandments are still legit anyway?

Also, in the OT, God is true and just.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

The OT God is a bloodthirsty savage dreamed up by bloodthirsty savages. There's nothing even remotely "true" and "just" about him.

Off course he would be jealous if His creation chose to worship idols / self logic.
If your husband or wife worshipped other men or women over you, wouldn't you be jealous?

We're people with flaws, we're talking about a perfect God who suffers from human emotional weakness like jealousy?

The God of the bible is universal. 2500 different translations, no wonder the bible is the most sold book in the world. This proves that a True God, really wanted His message to reach the ends of the world as He said:.

Yea, book sales mean nothing. The Koran, btw, apparently has billions in circulation. So you're hinging the notion that the bible is true on the fact that it edges out the Koran in sales? Billions.

 

[CodeRedR51]

No, don't bump this! Had a good run going there...

 

[Pupik]

Boy ya sure got me there! The human body and brain are by far more complex than a computer or a car but you'll believe that it just 'evolved' while a computer and a car had to be made.

I forget where I read it, perhaps earlier in this thread (we're talkin' years maybe) but aren't there like 200 things that have to be in place for life to exist on earth? Not some of those 200, but all of them?

Since humans cannot photosynthesize nor become anoxic, then they clearly do not satisfy the "200 things which are required for life". Of course, we humans are better than all that...we made deities.

This isn't even going into how non-living things that are "complex" all came from desperate things which were either less complex due to simplicity, or were over-complex and fell out of fashion (or funding).

 

[Scaff]

I still don't get how you guys don't understand, that the OT was for a specific nation, for a specific period.
Jesus Christ gave the New covenant for the world.
He said, "Love the Lord your God, with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. All the laws hang on these two commands.

Then Jesus is a contradictory individual, as in Matthew he says something totally different.

You also need to explain why all Christian faiths teach the Ten Commandment as well, and why they hang in every Church, of every Christian sect I have ever been in?

Not to mention the time Jesus beat the 🤬 out of a bunch of people with what is an instrument of torture, or promised to come back with a bloody big sword to sort out sinners!

Basically, if any law contradicts these two commandments of love, then you must get rid of it.

No it doesn't say that at all, that's your interpretation to meet your desired meaning.

Also, in the OT, God is true and just. Off course he would be jealous if His creation chose to worship idols / self logic.
If your husband or wife worshipped other men or women over you, wouldn't you be jealous?
Our God is a relationship loving God, and since we are made in His image, we also have relationships, and have love.

So murdering everyone on Earth apart from one family is true and just.

Why not total up the amount of people God murders in the OT and NT and compare it with, well anyone.

Islam on the other hand, are told to imitate Muhammed. If you look at the last ten years of Muhammed's life, you will understand why muslims are butchering not just infidels, but themselves as well, for being hypocrites.
The quran doesn't have a new or old covenant. They only obey the final word of the quran.

No true (and your also told to imitate Jesus who likes a bit of whip action, and God (who is Jesus) who likes a bit of genocide).

Allah is not a universal god. Clearly the quran was written for the arabs, since it can only be interpreted in Arabic, and only 15% of them speak Arabic, and muhammed said it can only be understood in classic Arabic. Even fewer speak it.

Its the same damn God you worship.

The God of the bible is universal. 2500 different translations, no wonder the bible is the most sold book in the world. This proves that a True God, really wanted His message to reach the ends of the world as He said:

12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

If he was so universal why does every story in his texts occur is on tiny part of the Middle East, on one planet at the out rim of one galaxy in the universe?

If its was so universal I would expect it to have a far greater reach and scope than that.

 

[Hun200kmh]

If he was so universal why does every story in his texts occur is on tiny part of the Middle East, on one planet at the out rim of one galaxy in the universe?

As for this planet, it had to start somewhere. As for other planets, in other parts of the galaxy, I'm curious to hear what news you have about the absence of God's manifestations there? Or is it faith that tells you nothing happened out there in other parts of the Galaxy?

If its was so universal I would expect it to have a far greater reach and scope than that.

But of course He does have far greater reach and scope than that. Remember, God was before the Universe, in fact He created it. Can't beat that as far as reach and scope goes.