Do you believe in God?

[Scaff]

Guys I don't think the Prince of Peace was going to get in an altercation there! Look at how He berates a disciple for using a sword at his arrest. I always took those verses to show how Jesus was human and could react with anger, but that's just me

Which would mean he's not perfect and as such could not have completed the prophecy at his death and unwritten the 'old' laws with a new covenant at his death.

Yes he does berate a follower for using a sword, but later promises to come back and open the first of seven seal and unleash a divine apocalypse on the world!. Its yet an other example of Biblical contradiction, plenty of which exist.

Its almost as if the entire thing was made up and/or borrowed from other sources by a group of different people, over a long period of time, the majority of whom never met and was compiled into a loose and contradictory single edition.

 

[Dotini]

Which would mean he's not perfect and as such could not have completed the prophecy at his death and unwritten the 'old' laws with a new covenant at his death.

Yes he does berate a follower for using a sword, but later promises to come back and open the first of seven seal and unleash a divine apocalypse on the world!. Its yet an other example of Biblical contradiction, plenty of which exist.

Its almost as if the entire thing was made up and/or borrowed from other sources by a group of different people, over a long period of time, the majority of whom never met and was compiled into a loose and contradictory single edition.

Prophecy is like a mule - just when you think it might be useful, it kicks you in the head. (Tip of the hat to Tyrion Lannister)

Jesus was a man. About whom a lot of myth has been spun.

 

[Scaff]

Prophecy is like a mule - just when you think it might be useful, it kicks you in the head. (Tip of the hat to Tyrion Lannister)

Jesus was a man. About whom a lot of myth has been spun.

He may even have been more than one man and the result of collected myths, mixed with a desire to complete a prophecy.

 

[UKMikey]

He may even have been more than one man and the result of collected myths, mixed with a desire to complete a prophecy.

They forgot Brian Cohen from the Monty Python biopic lol.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Regarding bats and birds, do you think men 3000 years knew what the difference was?

Oh the irony.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Which would mean he's not perfect and as such could not have completed the prophecy at his death and unwritten the 'old' laws with a new covenant at his death.

Yet as it is written, isn't He still sinless?

 

[Scaff]

Yet as it is written, isn't He still sinless?

It's not actually clear in the Bible, and to a degree contradictory.

First the Bible doesn't specifically define sin consistently, if one takes it to mean God's law that was in place at that time them invading the Temple in the manner he did could well be considered to break that (much lesser infractions certainty did). As would driving a demon from a man into pigs, causing unnecessary suffering to animals breaks Jewish law).

However John 5:17 said that all unrighteousness is sin, in which case the actions in the temple are an issue.

Secondly the Old Testament verse that forms the basis of the prophecy says that the first covenant failed because it wasn't kept flawlessly, which is a much wider term.

You also have to consider that many biblical scholars say it should be interpreted as him being Perfect.

As such it's certainly not clear cut at all, and open to a very wide range of interpretation.

Personally I'm an atheist, so sin as a concept of religious law is problematic and heavily biased (slavery isn't a sin based on the Bible), so I look at it from a moral perspective and on that count he certainly didn't reach perfection. However realistically that's an impossible goal.

 

[Menoita]

I´m an atheist

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I consider myself Antitheist, very critical of all religion.

 

[huskeR32]

I consider myself Antitheist, very critical of all religion.

I'm curious as to how you'd differentiate that from atheism and/or non-theism.

I see a lot of overlap between those words, and I'd like to hear your take on what they all mean, if you don't mind taking a moment.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I'm curious as to how you'd differentiate that from atheism and/or non-theism.

I see a lot of overlap between those words, and I'd like to hear your take on what they all mean, if you don't mind taking a moment.

You're absolutely right there is a lot of overlap. I'm like a militant atheist; devoutly anti-religion. An atheist is someone who simply doesn't believe in [any] God or creator. An Antitheist is the same, but holds the belief that religion is not only false but also damaging to the human race, and to our advancement as a species.

I find the entire notion of it utterly absurd and won't hesitate in pointing out the absurdities any time I see it necessary. I lose a lot of friends on Facebook with my outspoken nature. For example:

People will post things like "pray for Cancer sufferers" (all that sort of rubbish), and I'll point out that if they believe in God enough to pray to him for such things, then they should accept that God - being omnipotent and all - is the reason people have cancer in the first place. Clearly cancer for these people is part of God's plan, so why bother praying? If God didn't give them cancer, then he isn't omnipotent (and thus God doesn't exist to begin with).

I have a disabled child who attends a special needs school. This school, like virtually all in Northern Ireland, is a Christian school - they have Religious Education, religious assemblies, celebrate Christmas by having nativities and all that garbage.
Anyway I wrote a letter to the school once, telling them it is shocking that there are children going to this school who are severely disabled, are in wheelchairs, some have terminal illnesses, can't remotely think for themselves and need 24/7 care. Yet here in this school they are taught that they are born unworthy human beings, sinners, and must beg forgiveness from God and get down on their knees (where applicable) and give thanks to him their entire lives. This is exactly what Christianity teaches us all: "born sick and commanded to be well" as Hitchens put it.
It's shocking and disgusting. Of course I didn't get a reply.

But that's religion for you; no scruples, no shame. It's a total farce. As an Antitheist I'm not just a non-believer, but a vocal critic of organised religion in every form.

 

[PeterJB]

Then why not find a secular school?

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Setting aside the fact my son is disabled and attends the only school in this country equipped to teach him;
All schools in Northern Ireland are either Protestant, Catholic, or multi-denominational. They will all teach Religious Education of some description.

That point alone really gets on my nerves. Catch them while they are young; brainwashed early.
If people weren't allowed to be taught about God and the Bible until they reached adulthood, religion would die out VERY quickly.

 

[Imari]

If people weren't allowed to be taught about God and the Bible until they reached adulthood, religion would die out VERY quickly.

I dunno. A lot of people seem to feel like they need something to believe in. I look at some of the bollocks people spout about politics, or race, or whatever else and I really don't see much difference. Lots of people just go with whatever feels right, whether they've been taught as children or not.

 

[RacerTed]

You're absolutely right there is a lot of overlap. I'm like a militant atheist; devoutly anti-religion. An atheist is someone who simply doesn't believe in [any] God or creator. An Antitheist is the same, but holds the belief that religion is not only false but also damaging to the human race, and to our advancement as a species.

I find the entire notion of it utterly absurd and won't hesitate in pointing out the absurdities any time I see it necessary. I lose a lot of friends on Facebook with my outspoken nature. For example:

People will post things like "pray for Cancer sufferers" (all that sort of rubbish), and I'll point out that if they believe in God enough to pray to him for such things, then they should accept that God - being omnipotent and all - is the reason people have cancer in the first place. Clearly cancer for these people is part of God's plan, so why bother praying? If God didn't give them cancer, then he isn't omnipotent (and thus God doesn't exist to begin with).

I have a disabled child who attends a special needs school. This school, like virtually all in Northern Ireland, is a Christian school - they have Religious Education, religious assemblies, celebrate Christmas by having nativities and all that garbage.
Anyway I wrote a letter to the school once, telling them it is shocking that there are children going to this school who are severely disabled, are in wheelchairs, some have terminal illnesses, can't remotely think for themselves and need 24/7 care. Yet here in this school they are taught that they are born unworthy human beings, sinners, and must beg forgiveness from God and get down on their knees (where applicable) and give thanks to him their entire lives. This is exactly what Christianity teaches us all: "born sick and commanded to be well" as Hitchens put it.
It's shocking and disgusting. Of course I didn't get a reply.

But that's religion for you; no scruples, no shame. It's a total farce. As an Antitheist I'm not just a non-believer, but a vocal critic of organised religion in every form.

Neither you nor Hitchens understood what the Bible taught about forgiveness and the price paid for it. I have a special needs son (two of them actually) and if your religious schools are teaching that it was God's plan for these children to have their struggles or cancer then they are wrong.

If God had his way we'd all be sitting naked under a tree right now.

Better way to put it would be 'born sick and offered to be made well at the cross'. Salvation is a free gift.

 

[Scaff]

Neither you nor Hitchens understood what the Bible taught about forgiveness and the price paid for it. I have a special needs son (two of them actually) and if your religious schools are teaching that it was God's plan for these children to have their struggles or cancer then they are wrong.

Who's plan was it then?

If God had his way we'd all be sitting naked under a tree right now.

If that had been the case he wouldn't have stuck the damn tree in the garden, or for that matter let the serpent in.

Both rather shortsighted moves.

Better way to put it would be 'born sick and offered to be made well at the cross'. Salvation is a free gift.

No its not free, it requires a form of servitude to an invisible, unproven entity that results in having to follow an inconsistent set of rules made up by men that has and continues to results in the persecution of perfectly innocent people.

It's far from free for many.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Neither you nor Hitchens understood what the Bible taught about forgiveness and the price paid for it. I have a special needs son (two of them actually) and if your religious schools are teaching that it was God's plan for these children to have their struggles or cancer then they are wrong.

Hitchens never understood what the Bible taught
The school doesn't specifically state "God made you disabled/gave you cancer" (or whatever), that's not what I said. The school teaches Christianity. The omnipotence of God, the virginity of Mary, Jesus, salvation, forgiveness and on and on. They are in effect telling these children that we are all born sinners and must accept salvation (apologise for being born sinners) otherwise burn in a lake of fire for all eternity.

If God had his way we'd all be sitting naked under a tree right now.

The fact he "doesn't have his way" surely renders him non-existent? If he is all-knowing, all-wise; a perfect being who knows everything that ever has been and ever will be (as Christianity teaches us) then how is anything not within his control? Why does he create homosexuals to be persecuted? Why does he create millions of children just to sit idly by and watch them starve to death? Why create tyrants to rule countries and murder millions? Why let genocide happen?
If he DOESN'T have a hand in any of these things, then he is not omnipotent and thus does not exist.
If he DOES have a hand in these things, then he is a megalomaniac, a sadist, a vulgar bully, a disgusting wretch who doesn't deserve worship or praise.

Better way to put it would be 'born sick and offered to be made well at the cross'. Salvation is a free gift.

But why born sick? Why not born perfect in His image? It makes no sense.

 

[RacerTed]

When I say 'born sick', I'm referring to what we call the human condition of sin. Forgive me for not being clearer. We are all born sinners. Remember this when you balk at that, you weren't asked for the solution.

God had his standard, and due to the sinfulness in our nature we are unable to live up to it. So he took on human form, lived a sinless life and died on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins.

Also, I should've said 'If everything went according to his plan' rather than 'If God had his way', we'd all be sitting naked under a tree.

God gave Adam a choice, don't eat of that tree or you will surely die. He ate it and now we die. The original plan was to be born in his image, but he partnered with his creation and his creation blew it-for himself AND the rest of us.

I don't believe God creates homosexuals. Are they born that way? I believe so, I didn't years ago but I do now.

So why is it sin if they're born that way? I struggled with this for weeks until I came to this conclusion. God didn't ask how you were born. He just said this is the way it is and that is what I expect.

Regarding all the other questions you pose as to why there is evil in the world, I refer you back to the fall of Adam. He didn't want this, but Adam chose it.

Why did he put the tree in the garden? There had to be a way for his creation to show their love for him (and this proves free will). Jesus said in the New Testament, 'why do you say you love me and do not the things that I say?'

I'm not going to argue either that (regarding what scaff wrote) the Word of God has been used to justify mans inhumanity to man. There's no doubt about it. But I will argue that you can't point to a verse that gives man excuse to do what he does. There are tons of verses that condemn mans action to his fellow man.

When my oldest was in the eight grade, she developed this jerkiness in her head that she couldn't control and tourettes, but only two words-mew, and cheese. We fasted television for three weeks and watched online videos on healing by a minister named Andrew Wommack. After three weeks, no jerkiness, but still had the tourettes.
Sometime later, maybe a year or so we go to church and she goes up for prayer. No more tourettes. Had it that morning, didn't have it after church. And it has not returned.

 

[LeMansAid]

When my oldest was in the eight grade, she developed this jerkiness in her head that she couldn't control and tourettes, but only two words-mew, and cheese. We fasted television for three weeks and watched online videos on healing by a minister named Andrew Wommack. After three weeks, no jerkiness, but still had the tourettes.
Sometime later, maybe a year or so we go to church and she goes up for prayer. No more tourettes. Had it that morning, didn't have it after church. And it has not returned.

"Praise God" if it works, "Curse God" if it doesn't?........ Didn't think so.

I'm not big on the "If God exists, then why.........?" argument, and not particularly interested at all in coming up with reasons why God doesn't or can't exist. However, I'm even more so not big on the concept of deciding that God exists and then subjectively assigning causation perceptions based purely on that presupposition.

 

[CodeRedR51]

We are all born sinners.

This is where religion fails the most.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

When my oldest was in the eight grade, she developed this jerkiness in her head that she couldn't control and tourettes, but only two words-mew, and cheese. We fasted television for three weeks and watched online videos on healing by a minister named Andrew Wommack. After three weeks, no jerkiness, but still had the tourettes.
Sometime later, maybe a year or so we go to church and she goes up for prayer. No more tourettes. Had it that morning, didn't have it after church. And it has not returned.

With the greatest respect (for the sake of this conversation, I honestly mean no offence) - what makes your family's prayers more important than the prayers offered all around the world by people who are genuinely desperate, yet never get answered? Children are dying in the millions from starvation, torture, abuse, neglect, disease and on and on...
How many prayers do you think these children (and their families if they have any left) offer up to God in desperate need? Yet God doesn't answer. He just cures a random kid of Tourettes and half-appears on a slice of toast.

 

[Imari]

Why did he put the tree in the garden? There had to be a way for his creation to show their love for him (and this proves free will). Jesus said in the New Testament, 'why do you say you love me and do not the things that I say?'

Why exactly does his creation have to show their love for him? As far as I can tell there didn't have to be a way, he could have just let humans be happy.

Most people aren't so needy as to require the things that they make to love them, and certainly aren't so vindictive that they would punish them and all their descendants for one person's mistakes. Most people would consider that taking it a little too far. Should we still be punishing all Germans for the Holocaust?

 

[FoRiZon]

When my oldest was in the eight grade, she developed this jerkiness in her head that she couldn't control and tourettes, but only two words-mew, and cheese. We fasted television for three weeks and watched online videos on healing by a minister named Andrew Wommack. After three weeks, no jerkiness, but still had the tourettes.
Sometime later, maybe a year or so we go to church and she goes up for prayer. No more tourettes. Had it that morning, didn't have it after church. And it has not returned.

So if, say, he suddenly got worse disease after church, would you give up on religion?

As far as i know, religion isnt magic. Its about accepting what we are now, bad or good, better or worse.

 

[Scaff]

When I say 'born sick', I'm referring to what we call the human condition of sin. Forgive me for not being clearer. We are all born sinners. Remember this when you balk at that, you weren't asked for the solution.

No we are not.

You base this claim on the writings of a bronze age tribe, who stole it from older religions, it has no supporting evidence at all and holds no more validity that any other claim of divinity.

 

[BobK]

God gave Adam a choice, don't eat of that tree or you will surely die. He ate it and now we die.

God knew perfectly well in advance what Adam's "choice" would be. So what was the point?

 

[ryzno]

I don't believe God creates homosexuals. Are they born that way? I believe so, I didn't years ago but I do now.

If God didn't create homosexuals, how were they born that way?

 

[RacerTed]

With the greatest respect (for the sake of this conversation, I honestly mean no offence) - what makes your family's prayers more important than the prayers offered all around the world by people who are genuinely desperate, yet never get answered? Children are dying in the millions from starvation, torture, abuse, neglect, disease and on and on...
How many prayers do you think these children (and their families if they have any left) offer up to God in desperate need? Yet God doesn't answer. He just cures a random kid of Tourettes and half-appears on a slice of toast.

I genuinely don't know, I look at my kid that got cured of what she got cured of and then look at her 17 year old brother with autism and psychotic disorder kicking and screaming on the floor because he can't make the noise in his head stop until the meds kick in and her 13 year old brother with severe autism and wonder why those prayers haven't been answered yet also.

If God didn't create homosexuals, how were they born that way?

Best guess is faulty wiring, like my boys with autism.

God knew perfectly well in advance what Adam's "choice" would be. So what was the point?

I don't know.

So if, say, he suddenly got worse disease after church, would you give up on religion?

As far as i know, religion isnt magic. Its about accepting what we are now, bad or good, better or worse.

Well, I've been praying for a miracle for my autistic sons for about 14 years now...

"Praise God" if it works, "Curse God" if it doesn't?........ Didn't think so.

I'm not big on the "If God exists, then why.........?" argument, and not particularly interested at all in coming up with reasons why God doesn't or can't exist. However, I'm even more so not big on the concept of deciding that God exists and then subjectively assigning causation perceptions based purely on that presupposition.

Remember a few pages back when you told me not to assume to know what you believe? How about you don't assume to know what's going on in my life?

I've praised him for what worked for my daughter and cursed (and later asked forgiveness) for it not working for my sons (yet, can't give up on my boys).

Don't really care what you're 'big on'. We walked up to a lady at church, requested prayer, walked away with what we asked for.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Best guess is faulty wiring, like my boys with autism.

Great way to talk about your kids...

Well, I've been praying for a miracle for my autistic sons for about 14 years now...

And nothing has changed right? At some point you have to start wondering if you are wasting your time.

 

[RacerTed]

Great way to talk about your kids...

And nothing has changed right? At some point you have to start wondering if you are wasting your time.

Not trying to be mean, and I'm not going to go around with you about whether I'm wasting my time or not.

 

[mustafur]

I don't know why this is happening therefore god.