Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 625 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 17.9%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,059 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,051
Neither am I denying that it could have come from nothing but in reverse are you saying that it could not have come from anything other that these models and theoretical proofs show? After all they are just predictions with assumptions along the way that things will always behave in a predictable manner?
 
Neither am I denying that it could have come from nothing but in reverse are you saying that it could not have come from anything other that these models and theoretical proofs show? After all they are just predictions with assumptions along the way that things will always behave in a predictable manner?
The one thing these models and hypothesis do have is quite a bit of work and logic behind them, and no one is dismissing out of hand any other model or hypothesis, but what they would (quite reasonably) expect is a similar level of logical positioning behind them

What I am utterly unclear about is what you are proposing as the alternate?
 
That would be because I'd have utterly no idea :) I just don't like the idea that life as complex and amazing as it is was born in this way, its too simplistic, and the idea that there could have been nothing before doesn't sit well either, if this is the case then that suggests there will be an end, which again is something that religion touches upon and its obviously going to be dramatic. But for me to believe in God is something I would struggle on, I'm trying to understand Einstein's religion vs supernatural religion. The cynic in me always comes back to the bible was not always printed and History can become blurred as time passes by, after all the bible is a book, to be sold, an enterprise to make money, to make someone powerful. So as I'm saying is that can religion be trusted?
 
I don't accept / I don't like / doesn't sit well

You're basing your opinion on a falacy (argument from personal incredulity). And may I ask why do you think the explanations we have are "too simplistic"? In what way? The beauty of science is that it can explain things with simplicity. Look at "E=mc*2" or the theory of evolution (of course they're complex in the specifics, but their conclusions are simple).

On your question about my opinion, I don't put away any possibility. But I can't make a positive claim about the unknown. What I can do though it question and refuse explanations based on personal experiences or faith.

ps: Einstein started as a deist believing in a god like Spinoza but he ended an atheist.
 
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But for me to believe in God is something I would struggle on, I'm trying to understand Einstein's religion vs supernatural religion.
OK, I will bite. Einstein's religion?

The cynic in me always comes back to the bible was not always printed and History can become blurred as time passes by, after all the bible is a book, to be sold, an enterprise to make money, to make someone powerful. So as I'm saying is that can religion be trusted?
Critical thinking is an asset, use it well and the questions you ask about religion are valid ones.

I would also suggest not just exploring the period after the Bible was written (however the time period for the NT and the books removed are serious questions), but also the origins of the story itself (Jesus has almost exact parallels in older religions) and the origins of the 'God' of the OT who almost certainly started out as part of a pantheon of gods.

I would suggest starting with the Epic of Gilgamesh and the flood myth around it (which predates the OT)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

...and the Canaanite religion....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion


...in particular the god Elyon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyon


Now put the OT in the context of a group of followers of Elyon looking to form a monotheistic religion and a lot of the OT stories, in particular the violence towards other religions and sect takes on quite a different picture.
 
Then are you saying that the big bang just happened?
Maybe.
That nothing caused this affect?
Cause and effect don't apply when there is no time for them to occur in that order in the same frame of reference. Besides, everything was in the same place at t=0s - and that place was nowhere.

1x10^-43s is an important number. It's known as "the Planck time" and it's the shortest possible amount of time that can occur in our universe. It's also the time it takes light to travel "the Planck distance" - 1.62x10^-35m - in a vacuum.
I find this very hard to accept
Okay. So what?

Unfortunately - well, fortunately, really - knowledge does not depend on what's easy to understand or accept. It's just knowledge and we uncover it by the scientific method.
and as far as I know, as modern science is becoming more detailed, this simplistic (say this lightly) big bang explanation is becoming less accurate, after all this is only a prediction, leading to further theories being developed it stands to reason
You're still demonstrating a carefree approach to the use of quite important words, so I will tell you that as far as you know is not far enough.
as proved throughout history that as man becomes more advanced and knowledgeable, that things thought seemingly impossible previously are now the norm.
Well, yes, but I've been telling you for two pages that we use the scientific method to fill gaps in knowledge, rather than inventing answers and ignoring it.
I think to say something cannot ever be proven is sadly shortsighted as we've come a long way in such a short space of time, that the future holds endless possibilities to what we may know?
When it's said of something that can be proven, but we haven't done it yet, yes, it's very shortsighted. It's even more shortsighted to fill the gap with literally any old answer because there isn't one we know yet.

When it's said of something that cannot be proven because it's non-falsifiable, it's accurate.
 
Maybe.

now that's very unspecific.

Cause and effect don't apply when there is no time for them to occur in that order in the same frame of reference. Besides, everything was in the same place at t=0s - and that place was nowhere.

1x10^-43s is an important number. It's known as "the Planck time" and it's the shortest possible amount of time that can occur in our universe. It's also the time it takes light to travel "the Planck distance" - 1.62x10^-35m - in a vacuum.

This I know but as you've answered above with a maybe this means that this could be wrong in its assumptions. Again this worked out as model, its a prediction, just like we predict weather, it could be wrong.


Okay. So what?

Unfortunately - well, fortunately, really - knowledge does not depend on what's easy to understand or accept. It's just knowledge and we uncover it by the scientific method.

You're still demonstrating a carefree approach to the use of quite important words, so I will tell you that as far as you know is not far enough.

Its an opinion please don't be so brazen, I am allowed to have one, and picking at the language I'm using and avoiding the statement when you understand quite obviously understand the concept I'm pointing out becomes very childish when you do it over and over, even after Ive apologised and please substitute the correct words you know I mean to write.

Well, yes, but I've been telling you for two pages that we use the scientific method to fill gaps in knowledge, rather than inventing answers and ignoring it.

I have been telling you for two pages that I accept this, but as has happened in the past that science can be wrong until its found the correct understanding, or has the necessary know how, just like how the earth was the centre of the universe, geocentric, just how smaller and smaller particles are now being found to be in existence where previously not.


When it's said of something that can be proven, but we haven't done it yet, yes, it's very shortsighted. It's even more shortsighted to fill the gap with literally any old answer because there isn't one we know yet.

When it's said of something that cannot be proven because it's non-falsifiable, it's accurate.

I was not talking about a God in this time rather time before the big bang, please don't quote your answer above again as that answer is not 100% correct, it might be close, it might be right, but until proven otherwise it might also be wrong.
 
now that's very unspecific.
Okay. And?
This I know but as you've answered above with a maybe this means that this could be wrong in its assumptions.
Nope.
Again this worked out as model, its a prediction, just like we predict weather, it could be wrong.
Yep. Well, sort of.

That's the thing about the scientific method, you see. Theory - the highest form of knowledge - explains all known facts, observations and laws. New facts and new observations means new theory. If they fit the theory, the theory doesn't need to change (much) and often they're facts and observations predicted by the theory. If they don't, then the theory has to be changed.

The speed of light in a vacuum and the Planck time and distance aren't theories, they're facts. Big Bang theory is a theory and it includes these facts in the explanation.
Its an opinion please don't be so brazen, I am allowed to have one, and picking at the language I'm using and avoiding the statement when you understand quite obviously understand the concept I'm pointing out becomes very childish when you do it over and over, even after Ive apologised and please substitute the correct words you know I mean to write.
No.

You're forming your opinions based on knowledge that is wrong and using words wrongly to support wrong conclusions. I'm informing you where they are wrong. I'm not going to write what you actually mean in your posts for you - that's your job.
I have been telling you for two pages that I accept this, but as has happened in the past that science can be wrong until its found the correct understanding, or has the necessary know how, just like how the earth was the centre of the universe, geocentric, just how smaller and smaller particles are now being found to be in existence where previously not.
No.

"Science" isn't wrong, because "science" is just knowledge. Theories can be wrong, where they have previously been right, due to new information. Heliocentrism was first proposed by Aristarchus, 2,000 years before our ability to observe the universe progressed to a point where we could make the observations that required fewer changes to the heliocentric theory than to the geocentric theory.

The discovery of smaller and smaller particles we hadn't discovered before isn't science being wrong. It's the scientific method being right. The Higgs group predicted the Higgs Boson in the Standard Model 50 years before we had the technology to find it. We found it.
I was not talking about a God in this time rather time before the big bang, please don't quote your answer above again as that answer is not 100% correct, it might be close, it might be right, but until proven otherwise it might also be wrong.
Did I mention God in that pair of paragraphs? You'll notice that I didn't...

I'll just repeat for you that time didn't exist prior to the expansion of the universe, so asking what happened in the time before time existed makes as much sense as asking what flavour no apples are.
 
Last night I listened to a BBC interview of a Dr Parnia discussing a 4 year scientific study of life after death, which the BBC appeared to take very seriously and respectfully.

In an objective study of 2000 coronary arrest victims at 15 hospitals, it was determined that 40% experienced some kind of consciousness well after the heart flat-lined and before revival some time later. In 2% of the cases, roughly 40 people, out-of-body experiences occurred during which the clinically dead people were able to see, hear and later report true events which took place while their heart had stopped.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...r-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...experiences-may-actually-be-real-9780195.html

They are calling for ever larger studies of this phenomenon.

It looks as though we may be on the cusp of a major new understanding of consciousness - and perhaps of the human place in the universe.
 
Then that time didn't exist before the big bang is an assumption based on the theory of the big bang being correct, true or false?
 
Again this worked out as model, its a prediction, just like we predict weather, it could be wrong.

If you want to use weather as a comparison, then let's do it. You're insisting that, because we don't everything there is to know about the origins of the universe yet, that we should view all possible explanations as "equally likely."

That's like saying that because we don't know everything there is to know about weather, we shouldn't assume that rain, sleet, and snow are the only types of precipitation. We should also be equally prepared for it to ketchup tomorrow.
 
Im not insisting anything Im pointing out that it could be wrong.

Its not like expecting ketchup at all, its pointing out simply that predictions are not always correct based on what we know
 
Im not insisting anything

I was referring to this:

Then as knowlege has no understanding of what occured before then everyones opinion is as likely correct as each others. Therefore its not for theists to prove anything, more to the point to be discovered or learnt.

That's simply wrong. Just because we don't know the answer, doesn't mean all possible answers are equally likely. Have you withdrawn that claim? If so, then my apologies.
 
I've probably conceded the point somewhere along the way to Famine :) My apologies also, think I misread your post.

I'd recommend you read Lawrence Krauss' recent book, "A Universe From Nothing".

He's pretty good at putting complex cosmology into digestible language for non-cosmologists.

Another book which is really useful is Alan Guth's "Inflationary Universe".

If you read both of these, the recent part of this thread will make much more sense, and you'll be equipped to ask excellent questions!

Enjoy!!
 
Actually, you tried to redefine objective last time to mean subjective

Only to point out of it's dependence on subjective consensus.
Which proves objective evidence cannot be seperated from subjectivity.

But just as subjective evidence is evidence under the established definition, so likewise is objective evidence.


Glad you're now conceding that objective means objective and that there is no objective evidence for your deity - or any other.

Don't you mean to say, there is no objective evidence against the existence of my diety.
In combination is the complete equation, not half of it.

Except your deity is non-falsifiable. This means that not only is there no evidence, there cannot be any evidence.

For such a science buff, I find it hard to believe you could make such a reckless assumption.

Non falsifiable today, does not gaurantee, or claim the same condition tommorrow.

Not to mention, my 1800 example clearly proves that.

This renders your deity to the same level as Russell's Teapot. This too has been patiently explained to you.

Unfortunately, like you, this fellow Russell makes an opinionated assumpton based on half the equation.
Again since there is no objective evidence for or against the teapot, there is no reason to take the position of non existence.
The only objective position that can be reasoned, based on the objective evidence is one of neutrality, or it may exist, but there is nothing, but subjective evidence to say it does.
 
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For such a science buff, I find it hard to believe you could make such a reckless assumption.

Non falsifiable today, does not gaurantee, or claim the same condition tommorrow.

Not to mention, my 1800 example clearly proves that.
You either don't understand or are seeking to redefine (shock!) the word "non-falsifiable". It means "not able to be falsified". This is an immutable quality - and your deity's characteristics of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence are each individual non-falsifiable.
Unfortunately, like you, this fellow Russell makes an opinionated assumpton based on half the equation.
Again since there is no objective evidence for or against the teapot, there is no reason to take the position of non existence.
The only objective position that can be reasoned, based on the objective evidence is one of neutrality, or it may exist, but there is nothing, but subjective evidence to say it does.
Nope. The teapot is non-falsifiable.
 
Only to point out of it's dependence on subjective consensus.
Which proves objective evidence cannot be seperated from subjectivity.

Le sigh.

No. It does not. That is the point of objective evidence, that it is not dependent on a subjective viewpoint.

Don't you mean to say, there is no objective evidence against the existence of my diety.
In combination is the complete equation, not half of it.

There is no such thing as evidence of non-existence. There is only evidence of existence, or the absence of evidence of existence.

Perform this thought experiment. What evidence might you expect to find regarding the non-existence of hobgoblins?

Non falsifiable today, does not gaurantee, or claim the same condition tommorrow.

Incorrect.

Non-falsifiable means that there is no test that can be designed to test the validity of the claim. Not now. Not ever.

This is different to being able design an experiment to test the validity but not being able to actually construct it. Which is what happened with the Higgs Boson, they knew how to test it but the technology literally didn't exist to be able to do so.

There is no test that would return results based on the existence or non-existence of God. He is by the Christian definition (and the definition of a lot of other religions) not falsifiable.


Do you remember when I asked you what specific set of circumstances would convince you that your belief in God is wrong, and you answered "none"?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/do-you-believe-in-god.111312/page-523#post-10109722

That's the problem. If there is no circumstance under which you would be convinced that God does not exist, even when given complete freedom to think of absolutely anything you like, then He's non-falsifiable.

If you can name some situation that might change tomorrow that would make God falsifiable, then be my guest. Prove me wrong. But I suspect the only way you're going to be able to do it is by Him losing some of his defining characteristics, in which case He isn't God any more.

Unfortunately, like you, this fellow Russell makes an opinionated assumpton based on half the equation.
Again since there is no objective evidence for or against the teapot, there is no reason to take the position of non existence.
The only objective position that can be reasoned, based on the objective evidence is one of neutrality, or it may exist, but there is nothing, but subjective evidence to say it does.

You still don't understand that Teapot.

Name me one piece of evidence for non-existence. Of anything.

Nothing?

So given that there's no such thing as evidence of non-existence, we're left with two states.

1. We have evidence of existence. The thing exists, no problem.
2. We have no evidence of existence. The thing may or may not exist.

If we don't define 2 as "the thing doesn't exist", then there's no way to be able to say that anything doesn't exist. That might be fine for you, but it's not a very helpful way to think about the universe, that everything ever imagined is just beyond the next rainbow.

On the other hand, humans are very adaptable, and if evidence of existence turns up later then most of us are capable of saying "well, fancy that, there ARE Underpants Gnomes!" It's not a crime to be wrong, and most of the time if there isn't evidence of something's existence whacking you in the face, you're probably not going to be inconvenienced much even if you are wrong about saying it doesn't exist.
 
1).
"What is God?"
According to the Bible: a murderous, morally challenged entity who resides in a place called Heaven who sees over all and judges all. Condones slavery, human sacrifice, murder and rape.

source

"Do you believe in God?"
No. Sorry, but that guy needs to see a shrink.

2).
"What is God?"
That 'thing' which created everything from the smallest unit - the atom; to the vastness of the entire Universe and everything in between. That 'thing' which created 'life' - beautiful scenic landscapes; adorable creatures (even those less adorable ones); my mum; the GTPlanet Community (and, unfortunately, the Forza community too :lol:).

"Do you believe in God?"
Yup.
 
1).
"What is God?"
According to the Bible: a murderous, morally challenged entity who resides in a place called Heaven who sees over all and judges all. Condones slavery, human sacrifice, murder and rape.

source

"Do you believe in God?"
No. Sorry, but that guy needs to see a shrink.

2).
"What is God?"
That 'thing' which created everything from the smallest unit - the atom; to the vastness of the entire Universe and everything in between. That 'thing' which created 'life' - beautiful scenic landscapes; adorable creatures (even those less adorable ones); my mum; the GTPlanet Community (and, unfortunately, the Forza community too :lol:).

"Do you believe in God?"
Yup.

People generally distinguish between the two by referring to the second as a Creator or some such. God with a capital G has a pretty specific meaning.

But have you browsed the last couple of pages of big bang/start of the universe discussion? What makes you believe in a creator?
 
For such a science buff, I find it hard to believe you could make such a reckless assumption.

Non falsifiable today, does not gaurantee, or claim the same condition tommorrow.

Not to mention, my 1800 example clearly proves that.

One thing is "I could falsify this, but I don't have the means to do the experiment" (which is what your "1800 example" represents) and another thing is "I can't falsify this even if I had super-advanced technology" (which is the problem of entities like God).
 
People generally distinguish between the two by referring to the second as a Creator or some such. God with a capital G has a pretty specific meaning.

But have you browsed the last couple of pages of big bang/start of the universe discussion? What makes you believe in a creator?

OK, cool.

I have been reading a few of the most recent posts, yes. Seems like a lot of heated (?) debate is currently taking place. I was just giving a simple answer to the OP's question.

To answer your question: it's more of a creative force I'm inclined to believe in than a 'creator'. If something is created then I'd assume (no sciency stuff to back me up here, sorry, just layman's common sense) that it was created by something, not necessarily a someone though.
 
Only to point out of it's dependence on subjective consensus.
Which proves objective evidence cannot be seperated from subjectivity.

I'll say it again: That's absurd.


Don't you mean to say, there is no objective evidence against the existence of my diety.
In combination is the complete equation, not half of it.

I'll say it again: You are very badly off the mark here.
 
Don't you mean to say, there is no objective evidence against the existence of my diety.

I'm not going to even try to convince you by discussing the issue about evidence of non-existence of things you assert. That's clearly a waste of my time.

However, moving away from hard "evidence", I wonder if you think there is anything odd or lacking in credibility in the following story?

Immediately after the Flood, the only humans alive on the planet were Noah's family members, correct?

So every human alive was aware of Noah, the Flood and particularly of Yahweh's ability to exact vengeance upon humans who were evil, corrupt etc.

Would you agree that the survivors were rather likely to have found the events to be "memorable", to say the least? Also, is it probable that they all believed in Yahweh? For the moment, I'll assume that the answers are Yes and Yes.

The descendants of Noah were ultimately to spread across the planet, presumably taking their beliefs and family history with them.

Here is where things become just a little strange. The vast majority of Noah's descendants managed to completely forget Noah, the Flood and even Yahweh, with one tiny exception. That is people near where Noah lived. Not one other tribal pocket passed on this knowledge to their descendants. Not in Australia, Polynesia, New Guinea, South America, Lapland, South Africa, North America, China, Japan, Indonesia and so on to name a few. What could have caused this global amnesia? Except of course, incredibly coincidentally, in the tiny geography which gave birth to belief in Yahweh. Most of the world abandoned Yahweh, and came up with other religions. Why did the Yahweh story lack any real durability?

Of all the places where Noah's descendants settled, what are the chances that the only place where Yahweh survived was exactly the same place where Yahweh first emerged. Noah's descendants were all confronted with signs of the devastation which must have resulted from the land being submerged for about a year, yet they forgot the Flood?

Right now, I'm not going to claim that this is "evidence" that the Flood story was a human invention, but I'm smelling a smoking gun.

Then we move on to the more modern question, which is this. If parts of the Bible are not literally true, then we have no way of distinguishing true passages from invented passages, which calls into question the whole Christianity thing.

@SuperCobraJet, what's your opinion on the above? Does your God explain why almost all of humanity was ready to forsake belief and even all memory of Yahweh so soon after Yahweh's demonstration of how he treats non-believers?
 
More simple than that though is:

By the time christians claim the global flood happened and even after the event, other civilizations were live and well in other parts of the world.
 
Actually there was a global disturbance called the Younger Dryas, the melt of which caused the world ocean to rise hundreds of feet. It is likely the global memories of this which gave rise to hundreds of separate cultures to enshrine legends of "the flood" into their religions and mythologies.
 
More simple than that though is:

By the time christians claim the global flood happened and even after the event, other civilizations were live and well in other parts of the world.

Very true. I was taking the path that for @SuperCobraJet's God to exist, then it is a requirement for the Bible to be true in all its content. Therefore I was pointing out just one of the many oddities about the Bible based on that required truthfulness.
 

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