Do you believe Schumi's championship record will ever be broken?

[zedextreme8177]

And by whom?

I'd say yes, if Sebby and Redbull can keep their epic combo up for 8 years

 

[F1 fan]

Anything's possible. Sebastian Vettel clearly has his eyes on Schumi's records and he's still 23. With 1 Drivers Championship, 12 victories and 18 pole positions, it is certainly achievable as long as he manages to maintain frontrunning status. He could still be racing in F1 for the best part of 20 years. The 7 world championships will be the hardest record to beat, but the grand prix victories are certainly achievable if he can remain at the top for so long.

It will still be difficult though, but not impossible.


It will be more difficult for Fernando as he has the least time available out of the top three. Unless he can dominate, he seems intent on having half a dozen good seasons with Ferrari and then retiring... Lewis' comments about wanting to prove himself as the best driver of his generation (bit cocky eh?) mean he would no doubt like to beat the records too...

 

[mirial]

Coulthard's rather sardonic quote from the Chinese Grand Prix "Sebastian Vettel aims to get the most wins from an Adrian Newey penned car". How boring.

Vettel's looks match what makes him tick really. I wonder what the pundits think?

 

[F1 fan]

Vettel's looks match what makes him tick really. I wonder what the pundits think?

Huh? I don't understand what you said. Please explain.

 

[mirial]

Out of all the F1 drivers, he's the one that least looks like an F1 driver, but more like a Rally driver. In other words, he doesn't look highly strung.

All drivers have to be calculating to some degree, but for statistics, numbers to drive you makes someone rather dull don't you think?

To use and extreme example, Gilles Villeneuve's ambition was first to be a racing driver, then to drive in F1, and then to drive for Ferrari. Wins and and Championships should flow from that, rather than the other way round. Fans should be in awe of how championships are won, rather than fortunate circumstances.

Another thing, Schumacher has always had a number 2 for a team-mate.

In a very humble sense, Senna acknowledged that for him, Fangio would be the greatest even if he had eclipsed Fangio's record.

 

[F1 fan]

Fans should be in awe of how championships are won, rather than fortunate circumstances.

I think most people were a little shocked at how the 2010 title played out at Abu Dhabi. It wasn't really fortunate circumstances. They all had the same chances during the race. Ferrari F'd up. Simple as.

 

[Rossticles]

Yes. It's hard to say by whom, but records are meant to be broken.

 

[J-PaP]

I think it is still possible but question is if it will be with current drivers. Like in Tennis I'm sure people at the time thought Sampras would never be beaten. Federer though has outshone him.

Schumacher's record can be beaten. You could say he had the skill to win a championship from 1994-2006. However 7 of those years he didn't win a championship.

I'm sure another driver, be it Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton most likely from the current drivers given the right car still have plenty of time to win enough championships. It is just a matter of being in the right team.

 

[Roo]

Yes. When? Don't know. By whom? Don't know. But one day, yes.

Don't forget there was over 40 years between Fangio's 5th and Schumacher's 6th.

 

[Matti_Dude]

I don't think there will be. Ferrari and Schumacher found themselves in a scenario where if they pumped enough money in to the sport then the results would follow. The rules didn't drastically change for quite some time which is why they dominated for so long. Now the FIA like to mix things up as soon as one time looks like they will start dominating to keep the sport interesting. Sure Vettel is set to break some records for now, but soon enough he'll find himself in a car that isn't capable of winning championships. Although I do think the wins record could be broken, drivers are coming in to formula 1 earlier and earlier and there are more and more races being added to the calender.

 

[Imari]

Not to bring up the car/driver thing again, but it's also a question of having a top flight car available to the potentially record breaking driver. So on top of having to have the requisite skill to even have a shot at beating the record (which is rare), you also have to either be on a team that is consistently at the highest level of development over several years, or get massively lucky in switching teams and go from one good one to another good one. It's not lottery odds, but it's not exactly the most likely thing in the world.

I think it's doable, but I suspect it could be a long, long time before we see that sort of dominance again. Particularly now that the FIA have shown a willingness to really tinker with the rules to ensure close, competitive racing.

 

[McLaren]

Yes. When? Don't know. By whom? Don't know. But one day, yes.

Don't forget there was over 40 years between Fangio's 5th and Schumacher's 6th.

I wonder how long it'll be til we see another driver with the same winning percentage as Fangio. Plus the man was in his 40s when he started winning championships, so I think some of the drivers like Alonso have somewhat plenty of time left to break the record, given they remain to have the will.

 

[f_399]

more so then a good driver, i think it had a lot to do with team dominance

ferrari had it down during schumi's reign

if vettel lands with mclaren or ferrari soon and either of those teams dominate, it will happen

with mclaren and ferrari's budget, they are not going to stay down long, they will have 1-2, maybe 3 years of drought then they will be up once again

 

[Robin]

I know its really to early to say but I could see Vettel and Red Bull doing it and even more so if they win this years championship. The problem is F1 reg's change so frequently these days that you can end up with blips like Brawn GP where a team has suddenly gets it so right so it might be a big challenge to break but I'm sure the record will fall.

 

[Rich S]

Vettel came into F1 very very young, over the years he may start to get sick of the same routine, jet lag, busy scheduling, intense competition that requires alot of concentration.

Also eventually Newey will develop a 3rd or 4th place car that cant be driven to victory. Or he'll quit (he's in his 50s already). It could be this year that Vettel loooses the championship. Mclaren is close to beating them. And this years Red Bull car is "controversial" with the front wing assembly bending the front ride height down to set airflow up on the rest of the car to add downforce.

-Its not known how good Vettel actually is. If Button or Hamilton or Heidfeld were in the same car as him would he be able to win? He didnt seem that impressive to me in the Red Bull X challenge in Gran Turismo. I beat him by 6 seconds over 2 laps. (lol, I'm just f-ing).

 

[Matti_Dude]

Its not known how good Vettel actually is. If Button or Hamilton or Heidfeld were in the same car as him would he be able to win? He didnt seem that impressive to me in the Red Bull X challenge in Gran Turismo. I beat him by 6 seconds over 2 laps. (lol, I'm just f-ing).

Yeah I definately think it's the car at the moment, we know Vettel is quite good because Webber has always been a solid midfielder. Although Mark was only on par with Heidfeld when they were racing for Williams. That means Vettel is as good as Petrov? Just kidding but I really hope somebody replaces Mark at the end of the year, not because I have something against the guy but just so there is another driver that we can gauge Vettel's performance against.

 

[Imari]

It would be quite interesting if at some point during the F1 season they took a weekend, got a spec car from one of the higher level series and got all the F1 drivers to set qualifying times. It'd be interesting to have an independent gauge on driver skill.

Of course, that will never happen because half of the fun talking about F1 is trying to separate out the skill and the design parts of a victory.

 

[F1 fan]

Plus the man was in his 40s when he started winning championships, so I think some of the drivers like Alonso have somewhat plenty of time left to break the record, given they remain to have the will.

Don't forget that Fangio was part of a completely different era. I doubt Fangio in championship winning form would have the necessary fitness to drive today's grand prix cars. Fangio also raced in a dangerous era, but the speeds weren't as high... I'm not saying this diminishes his achievements, he was extraordinary, but in todays era, it would be nigh on impossible to be competitive in F1 when pushing 50.

with mclaren and ferrari's budget, they are not going to stay down long, they will have 1-2, maybe 3 years of drought then they will be up once again

Both teams have endured far longer dry spells. Mclaren haven't won the constructors championship since '98. Lewis' driver's title was their first title (and still the only one) since Mika Hakkinen's driver title in '99.

Ferrari didn't win a constructors title between 1983 and 1999. They also went without a drivers title between 1979 (Scheckter) and 2000 (Schumacher).

Also eventually Newey will develop a 3rd or 4th place car that cant be driven to victory. Or he'll quit (he's in his 50s already). It could be this year that Vettel loooses the championship. Mclaren is close to beating them. And this years Red Bull car is "controversial" with the front wing assembly bending the front ride height down to set airflow up on the rest of the car to add downforce.

Why the emphasis on loses? The Red Bull RB7 has passed every test the FIA have thrown at it. Therefore it meets the rules. So it is not "controversial". Simply, Mclaren (mostly) keep whining and complaining. It is getting so tiresome. The FIA write the rules. Red Bull have came up with the best interpretation. Simple as.

How are Mclaren "close to beating" red bull. They were still 0.7 seconds down in quali in china. The gap is much smaller in race pace, but Vettel could still control the first two races easily. The only way Lewis won in China was due to a storming drive and a superior strategy, yet he still found himself behind vettel before (and after) his first stop. Had they been on the same strategy, Vettel would have won comfortably.

Its not known how good Vettel actually is. If Button or Hamilton or Heidfeld were in the same car as him would he be able to win?

Funny you include Heidfeld there. Button was only world champion due to the Brawn GP 001 and I don't rate him too highly... He's at the sharp end, but not one of the best. Vettel is a world champion. His speed is extraordinary. You detractors are really starting to p*** me off.

Yeah I definately think it's the car at the moment, we know Vettel is quite good because Webber has always been a solid midfielder.

And because he won in a s*** car. Something Lewis or Alonso have never done... Seriously, do you "armchair experts" need to put Vettel down again... Didn't you have your fill in the Chinese Grand Prix thread... I can go through this again, but it's gonna get messy.

It would be quite interesting if at some point during the F1 season they took a weekend, got a spec car from one of the higher level series and got all the F1 drivers to set qualifying times. It'd be interesting to have an independent gauge on driver skill.

This has been covered many times on GTP. Spec series are not truly equal as the car will have a natural tendency to handle in a certain way. Therefore it will suit some drivers styles better than others and will not truly be as equal as you envisage.

 

[Ardius]

I don't think there will be. Ferrari and Schumacher found themselves in a scenario where if they pumped enough money in to the sport then the results would follow. The rules didn't drastically change for quite some time which is why they dominated for so long. Now the FIA like to mix things up as soon as one time looks like they will start dominating to keep the sport interesting. Sure Vettel is set to break some records for now, but soon enough he'll find himself in a car that isn't capable of winning championships. Although I do think the wins record could be broken, drivers are coming in to formula 1 earlier and earlier and there are more and more races being added to the calender.

The FIA don't change the rules simply to "mix things up", they change the rules for a purpose - be it safety, speed restrictions or more recently, a pursuit of improved overtaking and bringing the costs down.

Its quite possible there will be an era of static rules long enough for someone else to beat Schumacher's record. By who and when is completely unpredictable, and thats how it should be.

To answer the question the thread title poses - yes, are there many unbeaten sports records? Usually a record is unbeaten due to technical reasons, like the Nurburgring official lap record not being beaten as cars that fast are no longer considered safe to race there. 8 WDC's is still technically possible.

 

[IceMan PJN]

I'd say yes, if Sebby and Redbull can keep their epic combo up for 8 years

That's unlikely. Vettel clearly has the talent and Red Bull clearly can produce a top car, but top teams with top cars aren't on top forever. Just ask the other top teams. Sometimes Ferrari has the car to beat, sometimes it's more of McLaren, Renault's had good years, and the current Mercedes was unmatchable for almost half a season as Brawn back in 2009. It's just a matter of time before one of the other teams produces a car that is superior to the Red Bulls, and it will probably be sooner than later.

If Vettel doesn't "lose the fire" and can manage to keep himself in competitive cars, maybe he can do it. However, Hamilton's been sort of subtly demanding that McLaren start stepping up their game if they want to keep him on their team.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/apr/14/lewis-hamilton-f1-mclaren

 

[mPWRD]

No. It's the same for those "unbreakable" records in other sports: F1 is reaching a stage where there are so many great drivers that no one can dominate for such a period of time. The reason Schumi's record happened so lately as opposed to other unbreakable records like the Celtics' 8 championships in a row or Gretzky's 2000+ points is because F1 1) has fewer people and 2) because there is a much greater investment required to get into F1. Nowadays with talent searches and more widespread technology (simulators, etc.), we will see a constant changing of the guard.

 

[Imari]

This has been covered many times on GTP. Spec series are not truly equal as the car will have a natural tendency to handle in a certain way. Therefore it will suit some drivers styles better than others and will not truly be as equal as you envisage.

True, but it's a damn sight closer than HRT versus Red Bull. It'd always be a throwaway thing for the pundits to rattle on about during dead moments in the race, but it'd be interesting nonetheless. At the very least, you'd get to see which drivers were on the same page.

The much loved quote on the BBC at the moment seems to be that Di Resta beat Vettel in Formula 3. Regardless of what people think about who's faster now, it's completely impossible to have a rational discussion when Vettel is in the RB7 and Di Resta is in the Force India. It's not even close. If you put them in spec cars at least it's a meaningful discussion, even if it's not definitive.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

And because he won in a s*** car. Something Lewis or Alonso have never done... Seriously, do you "armchair experts" need to put Vettel down again... Didn't you have your fill in the Chinese Grand Prix thread... I can go through this again, but it's gonna get messy.

BS

Singapore and Japan in 2008

 

[F1 fan]

True, but it's a damn sight closer than HRT versus Red Bull. It'd always be a throwaway thing for the pundits to rattle on about during dead moments in the race, but it'd be interesting nonetheless. At the very least, you'd get to see which drivers were on the same page.

Not really. While I agree it would be closer than HRT versus Red Bull, the results would still be tainted by the fact that some drivers may prefer a car to handle a certain way. Some simple setup could change their time by as much as a second, so unless you could guarantee that everyone could lap with the same track conditions, with the same independent (but skillful) mechanics, then the results will never be fair. And would probably just cause arguements with the drivers and fans.

You can't even go down the "stick everyone in a tin top" method, due to the likes of Paul Di Resta and Vitaly Petrov.

Try as hard as you like. You will never find a truly fair way to accurately judge all drivers. If the car is setup with heavy oversteer, it will make drivers with a preference to understeer look bad and vice versa.

BS

Singapore and Japan in 2008

Well the circumstances in those two races weren't exactly straightforward. Besides, that car wasn't a POS... In case you hadn't noticed, it was good enough for 5th overall in the drivers championship and "best of the rest" after Ferrari and Mclaren and BMW. But Alonso was able to beat two drivers (Heidfeld, Kovalainen) in superior cars. In Singapore, the race was fixed as I'm sure you are well aware. Whether or not Alonso was aware of this is not really up for debate, but you can't call it fair. As for Japan, it was a bit of a race of attrition with many incidents, and Alonso kept his head to take a deserved win. But not as much of a surprise win as Vettel at Monza... Besides, you're forgetting that at that point Alonso was a two time world champion. Vettel had been in F1 barely a year.

 

[PeterJB]

I doubt that anyone would. Compared to today their were very few rules changes during Schumacher's reign, so Ferrari could consistently keep at the top. At some point one of the new rules has to throw Red Bull off, they'd need to still be dominating until 2016, and if Lewis is going to drive for them eventually, that would make it even harder for Vettel to keep winning titles.

 

[Matti_Dude]

And because he won in a s*** car. Something Lewis or Alonso have never done... Seriously, do you "armchair experts" need to put Vettel down again... Didn't you have your fill in the Chinese Grand Prix thread... I can go through this again, but it's gonna get messy.

The car wasn't all bad, and I always think comparing a driver to their teamate is the best way to gauge how good somebody is. For all we know the Toro Rosso could have set up their car specifically for a wet race. Other teams may have predicted the race was going to be dry. Sebastien Bourdais even qualified 4th so it's not just Vettel doing well in a 's***' car. I obviously don't rate Vettel as highly as you.

Back on topic I think it would be a long time since the record was broken. If it took 40 years to break Fangio's record of 5 I can imagine it will be even longer to break Schumi's. I don't think anybody currently racing in F1 will beat it, there's too many good drivers right now.

 

[Lizard]

If Hamilton or Vettel stay in F1 long enough then yes it will be broken.

 

[Prince.M5]

It is difficult to say. From what we're seeing now, maybe Hamilton or Vettel could wrap up the record if they're still in Formula 1 for the next 10 years. Unfortunately, the environment and the performance level of the cars and drivers out there these days is almost equal and sometimes it's difficult to dominate unlike the Schumacher era. If and only if a team can build a car something like what Ferrari have done during the Schumacher days perhaps only then it will happen to this particular driver. So I'd say it's either 'No' or 'Maybe'.

 

[Ardius]

The car wasn't all bad, and I always think comparing a driver to their teamate is the best way to gauge how good somebody is. For all we know the Toro Rosso could have set up their car specifically for a wet race. Other teams may have predicted the race was going to be dry. Sebastien Bourdais even qualified 4th so it's not just Vettel doing well in a 's***' car. I obviously don't rate Vettel as highly as you.

Back on topic I think it would be a long time since the record was broken. If it took 40 years to break Fangio's record of 5 I can imagine it will be even longer to break Schumi's. I don't think anybody currently racing in F1 will beat it, there's too many good drivers right now.

To add to that:
Monza 2008 required almost all of the main contenders to fall out during qualifying due to terrible strategy decisions, placing most of them at the back of the grid. The STR was not terrible, throughout the season it was consistently near the top 10, at the time everyone felt it was due to the superior Ferrari engine contrasting with the Renault in the back of the Red Bull.
It was still an impressive win and Vettel quite obviously has World Class talent. But it wasn't a win in a terrible car beating the best. Its not quite Senna in the Toleman stuff (that itself not the worst car ever, but in that race he did start behind the top teams and drivers, whereas Vettel started ahead).

Vettel is as capable as anyone to take multiple championships, he is as good as Schumacher was in his heyday. Why people are unsure of his talent I don't know, perhaps they haven't watched much F1 lately.

 

[lmanion]

The main reason for Schumacher and Ferrari dominating was because they spent massive amounts of money on the car and testing which wasnt restricted to pre season as it is now. They had their own test track and would pound around there to find tenths or hundredths of a second between races. Obviously Schumacher was at his peak then as well, as good as the car was there still had to be a guy in it that could punt it as hard as possible. I cant see any one team having this sort of success in the near future due to teams trying to control their spending and the lack of testing. I also think the lack of testing during the season has an effect on the amount of time it takes rookies to adapt to F1 but this is possibly a seperate discussion for another time.