drift faster than grip

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Originally posted by Driftster
To answer question 1, yes i'm seriously 2 I live in Az and 3 Versus Motorsports sucks, does that answer your question. We have some other good shops IE Xtreme something or other I forgot, but they charge like 800 bucks for EXHAUST come on now.

Hmm, well PM me with all the details you've figured out so far and we'll work from there ok?
 
Originally posted by bengee
yup yup... that is correct... dampeners can resist the change in motion and restore the original value... ti basically stops the springs from bouncing too... suspensions are so complicated... but that is what i am interested int eh most... ok i gotta study for a goddam midterm that i have tomorrow in goddam electrical engineering... goddam

I know I love this stuff! I gotta say, I've never participated in a conversation this deep on Club4AG. Right when I first started posting there it was pretty close to this and I could tell that it was a lot better before, but it just declined. I think it got too big and all the real enthusiasts kinda gave up. Any topics posted would immediately get flooded off the first page after about an hour so none of the topics really get discussed much.
 
Originally posted by Driftster
Well actually yeah there would be force pushing outwards, the force of the car, and if the outside wheel loses traction there is just THAT much more force on the inside wheel, and since it has less contact with the ground due to the body roll and travel it'll lose it's grip too, but it's more than likely the first one to regain grip aswell

Yeah it is a though concept but it's like this. A car moving around a corner is exactly like spinning a ball on a string. The tension in the string is just like the friction of the tires. Now the only force involved is the string pulling the ball towards the centre. I'm even starting to doubt this theory but I know it's right. The ball doesn't really pull on the string if it did than it would not turn. It would just be going straight, neglecting gravity and air resistance of course.

About the inside wheel, it will reach it's max friction point first since there is less weight on it. Both inside and out side tires should experience the same friction forces until one of them reaches it's maximum. Since in the inside tire has less weight on it, it cannot provide as much traction as the outside wheel. Therefore it will max out first. But if the corner is extremely tight then the outside wheel may experience more friction since it’s turning radius will be much larger, relatively, and it may max out first. Either way both of them must max out before the car will slide.
 
Well club4AG is like SycloneForums which is like SRTforums. You're new and you have something to say, everyone else "SHUT UP NEWB, NEWB LOSER, NEWB, GET OUT"
 
Originally posted by TruenoAE86
Yeah it is a though concept but it's like this. A car moving around a corner is exactly like spinning a ball on a string. The tension in the string is just like the friction of the tires. Now the only force involved is the string pulling the ball towards the centre. I'm even starting to doubt this theory but I know it's right. The ball doesn't really pull on the string if it did than it would not turn. It would just be going straight, neglecting gravity and air resistance of course.

I think what he's talking about here is inertia. The car is going straight and it takes force to change its direction or velocity. As a result, force must be exerted toward the inside of the corner to counter inertia and keep the car from sliding. Traction provides that force, to a certain extent.
 
ok i explained what happens in a corner due to the friction forces pointing into the corner in post 147 which i will restate here...

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Originally posted by bengee
what you are really interested in gauging weight transfer is spring displacement of the suspension and such.... it is really the force of the spring that is forcing the wheel to touch the ground... so even with a stiffer spring the same force will be applied as a looser one... in the ideal sense... too stiff and it could cause it to be too rigir and roll over... too loose the car could reach its limit of displacement... set by the strut and such... and the car would not be able to deliver very large normal force to the wheels during cornering loads... when i say cornering load that is due to the fact that there is a centripetal force acting onf hte cm of hte car dependent upon velocity and radius... this centripetal force is directly related to the friction force on the tires on the ground which points into the corner... as its resisting the sliding out movement of hte car... these forces create a moment aobut the cm of hte car... this moment is balanced by the upward force of the suspension springs... which means that the outside suspension must be greater than the inside to compensate and balance the moment so the car doesnt roll over... this is only for straight cornering without acc of anytype... when acc is introduced back or front wheels may take the brunt of the load...
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its in there somewhere... the only thing i did not talk about is the dampeners... which basically resist the change in compression or expansion of the springs... and are therefore the better way to stabilize a car and prevent body sway...

oh yeah i forgot my point... hold on...

i was commenting on trueno... saying...

About the inside wheel, it will reach it's max friction point first since there is less weight on it. Both inside and out side tires should experience the same friction forces until one of them reaches it's maximum. Since in the inside tire has less weight on it, it cannot provide as much traction as the outside wheel. Therefore it will max out first. But if the corner is extremely tight then the outside wheel may experience more friction since it’s turning radius will be much larger, relatively, and it may max out first. Either way both of them must max out before the car will slide.

ok think about it like this... the traction is proportional to the normal/spring force... now what governs these two forces... a moment balance...

ok so then each traction force multiplied by its distance in the z direction (vertical) summed will give the moment due to the traaction force... this must then be countered by the spring force suporting the car... since they all point up.. the difference between the inside spring force times there horizontal distance to the cm in hte x direction adn the same for the outside wheels must equal the moment given by the traction forces... now i have forgotten where i was going with this... dammit...

pencil... paper...

anyways... i will finish what i was saying later when i know where i was going...

ok so assuming that the friction coeffs are the same for the wheels... that the horizontal distance fromt eh wheel to the centerline of hte car isnt different from the inside and outside corners... and that the vertical distance from the cm on the inside is less than the vertical distance to the cm on the outside... becuase the outside goes down and away from teh cm and the inside goes up towards the cm when one rotates about it...

i got Fi[u(Zi)+X]=Fo[-u(Zo)+X]

where Fi<Fo
and u(Zi)+X>-u(Zo)+X
because Zi<Zo

so that means that the max value for friction at both the inside and outside wheels would both approach there max values at around the same time...

to really prove it would mean i would have to do some diffeq's i got no time to do that...

this may not be really decisive... but i think it serves its purpose...
 
wth, happened to this thread?! this afternoon, i saw it at less than 100 posts. Tonight, its 150!!! This topic must be important to your livelihoods.
 
Originally posted by bengee
But if the corner is extremely tight then the outside wheel may experience more friction since it’s turning radius will be much larger, relatively, and it may max out first.

Just thought I'd point out that this is only true in your method of 4-wheel drifting. =) Not that it makes a difference really.
 
i was re reading the posts and halfacedrift kept on oging he/she when referring to me... i am a dude... just thought i should make that clear... dunno where half got the idea i wasnt...
 
sorry to say this again but like i said, its about how skill you are, because if ur skill enough, then u can do anything fast and easy with any cars, thats all!!!!
 
Originally posted by Night_Drifter
sorry to say this again but like i said, its about how skill you are, because if ur skill enough, then u can do anything fast and easy with any cars, thats all!!!!

Thanks for stating the obvious once again night drifter, I’m sure no one out here knew this before you decided to say it.

Hey did you know that the sky is sometimes blue? And when you throw something into the air it will fall back down, and that’s all!!!!!!
 
Nightdrifter, we KNOW it's in the skill. No matter which way of driving you go for, you still need the skill. Each technique can achieve very fast times, and if you have enough skill you can put the two together to gain faster times.

Gee you think by now we would have figured that out.....

edit: bengee, its called being safe. You never know when a female will turn up on these forums ykno! :p
 
Originally posted by TruenoAE86
Thanks for stating the obvious once again night drifter, I’m sure no one out here knew this before you decided to say it.

Hey did you know that the sky is sometimes blue? And when you throw something into the air it will fall back down, and that’s all!!!!!!

lol, I was in a really bad mood last night. Sorry :)
 
hey its all good you know,well i was in the bad mood too, because i dont know, hummm i wont say anything again, but all i wanna say is wait till i got my FF Drifting Tribute video and my FR drifting Tribute and my 240 SX drifting Trbute video, its all about drifting and speed drifting, i cant do it with other tires, so only super soft, take care you guys!!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by halfracedrift
Nightdrifter, we KNOW it's in the skill. No matter which way of driving you go for, you still need the skill. Each technique can achieve very fast times, and if you have enough skill you can put the two together to gain faster times.

Gee you think by now we would have figured that out.....

edit: bengee, its called being safe. You never know when a female will turn up on these forums ykno! :p

hahahahahaha i know.... lol... i called you a he in the last thing wrote and changed it too half hahahaha just in case... lol... but really what girl would use bengee... that's the name of a freaking dog... lol... but you are right you can never be tooo careful
 
Okay. Wow. I just got a physics class for free...

Anyway, back to the original topic of drift faster than grip. I may not be an expert on racing (yet), but I will have to agree that the proper "drift" technique is faster than normal "grip". No need to define those terms now that it's been done pages ago.

All those tests on the first two pages of this forum were pretty good. I like that idea. Although, all it came down to was a debate on four-wheel drift, which was also informative.

Just to bring it all back to the original intention of the forum, I have a question for everyone involved with this GTP forum: if a grip driver and a drift driver were to race at the same time on the same track (in the same place I presume, until GT4), who would come out the winner? I mean, could the drifter overtake the grip driver on some turns and ultimately win the race (using equally tuned cars with slightly different suspension settings for either style)?

If we can't conceptually come up with the answer, maybe we could try it out on a challenge one day. Just a thought.

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On another note, I would like to see footage of the four-wheel drift. I would like to attempt it one day, but I can't exactly figure it out using bengee's description a few pages back. Maybe some of you would be kind enough to collaborate on such a demonstrational video for Gran Turismo fans. (After reading every single post, I can see that you were all talking about the same thing, just getting confused on the diction.)

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And for my $0.02 on the whole physics of cornering: I do believe that the inside wheel would reach it's maximum traction before the outside wheel because of the weight transfer. I have not yet calculated the actual effects of weight distribution (or have I even gotten that advanced), but in theory (that should be emphasized), the inner wheel experiences a reduction of Normal force (the force of the ground pushing up on the wheel) with the shifting of the weight to the outer wheel. This, therefore, causes the wheel to be more free of motion because the force of friction f is reduced with the reduction of the normal force N. Because friction is proportional to normal force according to:

f = mN

where m is the coefficient of static/kinetic friction, the more normal force present, the greater the frictional force present, and in turn, the greater the applied force (our case is centripetal) needed to move the object. The less normal force, the less frictional force is present, the less force needed to move the object. In our case, the object is the wheel in a direction slightly askew from the "line". Less normal force present in the inner wheel allows the inertia of the wheel ("centrifugal" force in other words), along with the car, to be "drifted" off the line--this, in other words, says that the limit of maximum traction can and is reached by the inner wheel before the outer wheel.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong. (BTW, I am a second year Physics major, but in no way should you assume that I am the leading authority on racing dynamics. NOTE: I do not truly believe that "centrifugal" force is a physical entity; merely, it is a sensed occurence that entails rotational motion.)

Thank all of you for your educational posts. :)
 
well to answer the racing ?... i think that fast people are fast people... and driving with either style is important in different places... and both should be used... the person who adhered to this idea and wisely chose how to drive and what techniques to employ would win... lol guess it doesnt just come down to drift or grip... its how you use them...

and with the inside wheel thing... wow second year physics... i have taken a three d dimensions class purely for vehicle dynamis... but i have not had the time to do a little work on friction limits and such... just trying to find the best design for a grip driven car... after my summer school course i will do a bit of work lol... it will help me as well as solve our little problem...

would you agree tho that wether the wheels approach the traction limit together... or that the inside/outside wheel approaches this limit first... it cannot slide and therefor cannot have a loss of traction induced by anything other than torque given to the wheel... and therefor it is possible to bring all four wheels to max grip... or fairly close given real world conditions...

what kinda physcis you doing???
 
i agree with bengee. If you want to be fast, then you will hafta be able to have both grip and drift racing at ur disposal because every corner is different, and if ur racing someone different tactics hafta be used.

For example, on the hairpin on midfield or ss5, drifting either of those corners reduces teh speed too much to regain it quickly, which is the most important thing on a hairpin, so grip driving is best on that corner. But if you have a longer corner like the long hairpin one on t mountain with the yellow lines, then I would say most of the time drifting would be better IF ur racing someone because it allows you to enter the corner at a much higher speed, and that speed will allow you to overtake a car u are tailing (most probably from the outside) and block him from accelerating past you at the corner's exit, because by that time you will have a lower exit speed than him. At least thats how I use drift to win.
Another way you can use drift with grip is if you are entering a soft corner and if you are using grip racing you would normally hafta slow down to enter the corner, you can drift into the corner and use grip driving for the rest of it. This allows u to enter the corner at a higher speed without the reduction in speed at the exit.
 
Originally posted by TaiLo



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On another note, I would like to see footage of the four-wheel drift. I would like to attempt it one day, but I can't exactly figure it out using bengee's description a few pages back. Maybe some of you would be kind enough to collaborate on such a demonstrational video for Gran Turismo fans. (After reading every single post, I can see that you were all talking about the same thing, just getting confused on the diction.)

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Go here
https://www.gtplanet.net/gallery/gt3_video

Go to page 2 and dl "Trial mountain fastest lap" there is some good four wheel drifting. And you will notice that it looks, and is exactly like fast grip driving. Race drifting really is grip driving at the limit.
 
hey TruenoAE86, thanks for posting my video, anyways i try hard for it and now i can beat Akina's AE86 SS like pretty easy now since i know the skill of gripping, with four wheel, you need to slow when about to turn then when u turn, just accelerate then you will gain speed, well thats what i did, so hope you guys can do like the video or maybe you guys can be faster, i hope someone is faster so then i have the feeling to make it more faster!!!!!!!!!
 
hey tailo... if you wanna try to 4 wheel... i would suggest getting accostomed to drifting on slicks or super slicks... getting good at minimizing smoke... but let the tires squeel... then when you are maxing out on your lap times move to softs or super softs and push the car faster... remembering to minimize tire smoke and squeel unless you are scrificing grip for better line or exit acceleration...

when i get tv card or x/shark port i will post what i do...

i dunno how much a trail mountain lap is gonna help esp without any sound... you can really understand what the tires are doing... unless you can hear and see them... but still very good... and dam fast...

anyways anyone wanna post times up here... i think i get faster when i compete... lol...

lets race with low powered mr or fr cars... below 400 hp... specify tires... and power to weight and torque to weight ratios... i wanna find another car that i would love as much as i love the speedster...

feel free to suggest...
 
I don't mean to inteject like I so FAMOUSLY DO, but Isn't this thread about what style of driving is faster Drifting or Grip driving, I mean if they both had electronicly simulated races between the 2 which would win the most races when STRICTLY sticking to one type of race, IMHO I think grip would win a majority of the times, but the area's where drifting would win, it would win in a big way.

------edit-----



Fabisham
 
Grip would probably win every time. That's not even a debate, which I think is why most of the people just 'altered' the thread to a debate about the various theoretical limits of cornering.

Bengee, I like your idea, maybe you should pick a car, tire, and course, and start a new thread to see who can do fastest and analyze how they do it? Which styles on which corners and so forth?
 
hmmm that may be a good idea perg... but before i start a new thread... i think i am ognna bounce some ideas off of you all...

so i am thinking in this direction... two seperate classes... one with t8's or t7's users choice... and the other with t2's or t3's also users choice... i will pick three cars ( one for mr, fr, and 4wd)... or maybe just one car since that would lead to quite a few choices...

sector times must be submitted... i will also choose a single course... people will pm me the results or post them so i can edit them into a nice fashion and it also wont be hard to compare sector times...

i think i will also limit horsepower by choosing a car that even fully moded will yeild less than 400 horses in an attempt to lessen the chances that someones lap time will be out of wack because of straight away speed...

i think that i will have to develop a ranking system that uses points based on corner difficulty where sector times in corners will determine who is actually the fastest through a corner and not just lap times... lap times will also be issued some sort of point system too... i will figure that out later... after i determine the course...

ok i am gonna need some help determining cars... lightweight and less power than 400 when fully modded... i can only think of these

speedster... elise 190... mugen s2000 maybe??? ummm a little help please...

and for course choice i think apricot... ss11... something with a good variety of turns... suggestions welcome...

oh yeah i dont think that this should be for only ppl who can upload vids... however if the sector times are outrageously fast... i will need vid conformation inn order to be assured that all is ok... ie no hybrids and clean racing...

also do yout hink ppl will get mad i am puttin it in this forum... it should go in the lap time forum and whatnot... i will have to think of an excuse to put it in here... maybe something like racing drift vs grip 2... lol... or like 4wheel drift and grip...
 
ok that's just the thing, Gran turismo doesn't have every single kind of course that a drift/grip driver would encounter, like a downhill. Sure it has a very SLIGHT Downhill on trial mountain, but that's it, because it's on the downhill courses that a drift car would stand out the most over the grip car, because you can maintain the higher speed.
 
wait...

while i totally agree here... hairpins would be yet another example... anyways... what promted this???

sorry
 
YOU BETTER THANK ME, so what's the idea goin around here? You're going to have a bunch of people test different driving methods at different courses with different cars and see which corners are meant for which driving style to achive the best time?
 
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