drift faster than grip

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oooooooo
so the feelings finally come out huh driftster...:lol:

how old r you anyways... i am almost 21 and going into my third year in college... so i should know what i wanna be...
 
lol

I guess after spending so much time reading each other’s ideas we should probably get to know each other huh?

Well I am 21 and heading into my second year of University should have been third but got stuck somewhere along the way.
 
Originally posted by TruenoAE86
I think it will naturally happen that both wheels will have to reach their friction limit at the same time, it's just cannot happen any other way.

Let's just assume that it can, and let's say our inside tire reaches it friction limit first, now any additional friction needed will only be loaded on to the outside wheel until it begins to slide and of course this will now cause the inside tire to slide as well, since it cannot provide any more friction. Which fits perfectly to what I am proposing.
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You're forgetting that the outside wheel will have more weight, hence more traction. The inside wheel will start to lose grip before the outside wheel. You are correct in your explanation of what would happen in this scenario though, except I don't think that it would cause an immediate loss of traction. I just think that any extra force you exerted would all have to be absorbed by the outside tire which would cause it to reach its limit very quickly considering it was probably already pretty close anyway. So in order to push them both to the limit is VERY difficult.
 
Well anyway, i'm going to be going to a couple of schools, actually 3 my first is going to be the 2 year college to get my classes out of the way, and to get some law in there, not to mention it's the best Auto Tech school in the state. Then i'll be attending some ASU for some "Accredited" law classes. Then law school, havn't chosen the law school yet. But I got time to pick. Yeah it's alot of school, but i'm cool with it.
 
He makes a point with the outside wheel having more traction, but the thing is it usually still is the one that loses it's hold first, simply because the weight isn't pushing DOWN on the wheel it's pushing outward, meaning theres even MORE for the wheel to hang on to, while the inside one is just cruising it on the suspension travel
 
Right now I'm attending a community college for my AA. I have a cushy state job but they aren't paying for my college because the types of classes I'm taking don't apply to my job. I'm 22, and I am thinking about working at a really good performance shop like HKS. I have all kinds of crazy ideas that I have never seen done before. The engines that are built today have so many weak points that nobody ever even considers, I just don't get it. Especially when it comes to turbocharged engines.
 
Originally posted by pergatory
You're forgetting that the outside wheel will have more weight, hence more traction. The inside wheel will start to lose grip before the outside wheel. You are correct in your explanation of what would happen in this scenario though, except I don't think that it would cause an immediate loss of traction. I just think that any extra force you exerted would all have to be absorbed by the outside tire which would cause it to reach its limit very quickly considering it was probably already pretty close anyway. So in order to push them both to the limit is VERY difficult.
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No, I don't think I am forgetting that. That's why I said the inside tire will reach it's friction limit first. There could be 2 or 100 times more weight on the outside tire, which means 2 or 100 times more available friction. The inside tire will max out on traction almost immediately in the extreme cases. Leaving the outside tire to bare the rest of the load until it too reaches it's friction limit. If it were to go beyond than then both tires will begin to slide.
 
You know what engine you need to make for ME, and me ALONe, can you do that? I want you to make a Nissan based engine, with the SR20DET bottom end, and a QR25DE top end alright? So I can murder everyone on the track.
 
Hahah, what's the QR block? I don't think I've heard that designation. Why not just do the standard RB25DET swap? Those things are something like 80 lbs heavier than the SR20DET and have 50hp more stock.
 
QR25DE head not the block!!!! I want the SR20DET block The QR25DE is from the new Sentra SE-R Spec V, it's a wicked bad azz head, just the bottom end is lame
 
Originally posted by TruenoAE86
No, I don't think I am forgetting that. That's why I said the inside tire will reach it's friction limit first. There could be 2 or 100 times more weight on the outside tire, which means 2 or 100 times more available friction. The inside tire will max out on traction almost immediately in the extreme cases. Leaving the outside tire to bare the rest of the load until it too reaches it's friction limit. If it were to go beyond than then both tires will begin to slide.
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Oh, then we're saying the same thing. I thought you were saying that as soon as the inside tire lost traction it would cause the outside tire to immediately lose traction as well. I misread, my bad.
 
Originally posted by Driftster
QR25DE head not the block!!!! I want the SR20DET block The QR25DE is from the new Sentra SE-R Spec V, it's a wicked bad azz head, just the bottom end is lame
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I know you didn't say the block =) But I wanted to know what car it was from that's all.
Do you think it would beat the RB25DET? Or hell, I bet you could fit a VQ35 in there too, like Nomura. What car is it going in?
 
Probably an S14, I always wanted an S14. Heck, i probably would end up[ putting a VQ35DE in there, bad azz engine. But, by the time I do that it'll probably the "Thing to do" like the RB25DET is starting to be. HEck a MAGAZINE is swapping a RB25DET into a 240
 
lol toomuch **** goin on in this thread lol...

i do not think that if one wheel on the vehicle reaches its traction limit while the other tire on the same end of the vehicle is not at the limit... that the wheel will drop in its available traction... it would make sense because it is not moving that it would remain at its maximum traction... however it would mean that the load not dealt with by the tire already at its maximum traction... would be dumped upon the other tires... so the the car will remain stable... basically each tire will be coming extremely close to its limit as one or tow tires reach it... so it doesnt really matter that they are not all the way... they are appraoching it and that is what matters... that each tire is contributing almost equally... tire wear should be equal at least amoung the front pair and the rear pair... it should never happen that one side of the car wears faster than the other...

anywyas vehicle dynamics is in no way easy... and the ideas behind it aren't either... duh that was redundant
 
but here's a thought. When 1 wheel loses traction that puts 2 times the strain on the other wheel, so TECHNICALLY if you have 2 of the same wheels, which most people do, when 1 wheel goes that would CAUSE the other wheel to go, it wouldn't be simultanious but it would be a cause and affect
 
Originally posted by Driftster
He makes a point with the outside wheel having more traction, but the thing is it usually still is the one that loses it's hold first, simply because the weight isn't pushing DOWN on the wheel it's pushing outward, meaning theres even MORE for the wheel to hang on to, while the inside one is just cruising it on the suspension travel
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The weight does shift over somewhat; a lot in some cases like the FF rear tire lifting off the ground. And there really is no force really pushing out wards. I know this was one of the hardest concepts for me to understand in centripetal motion, but there is only a friction force pushing the car to the inside.

Humm... I wonder if having a higher looser suspension might put more weight on the out side wheels, thus increasing over all traction. Maybe that is why people tend to tighten up the rear suspension and loosen the front to get more oversteer...

Okay bengee, help me out with this. While cornering will a car force down more than it’s force of gravity? Or will it simply shift its weight over to one side to a certain extent? Humm… I’m going back and forth on this idea but after drawing a free body diagram I think the total normal force will stay the same. Wow I think I actually miss school, I can’t wait to start again.
 
Only some of the weight would transfer. In a straight line, the weight is generally distributed pretty evenly (laterally). In cornering, a greater portion of that weight is on the outside wheels because the suspension on the outside wheels loads, and the inside unloads. (Centrifugal force I think.) How much that happens depends on the suspension, so the primary function of a tighter suspension is to more evenly distribute the weight among the four tires during cornering.
 
Well actually yeah there would be force pushing outwards, the force of the car, and if the outside wheel loses traction there is just THAT much more force on the inside wheel, and since it has less contact with the ground due to the body roll and travel it'll lose it's grip too, but it's more than likely the first one to regain grip aswell
 
Originally posted by Driftster
QR25DE head not the block!!!! I want the SR20DET block The QR25DE is from the new Sentra SE-R Spec V, it's a wicked bad azz head, just the bottom end is lame
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how easy does the QR25DE head bolt up to the SR20DET bottom end

what is involved?..........or does it bolt straight on?
 
Originally posted by Driftster
but here's a thought. When 1 wheel loses traction that puts 2 times the strain on the other wheel, so TECHNICALLY if you have 2 of the same wheels, which most people do, when 1 wheel goes that would CAUSE the other wheel to go, it wouldn't be simultanious but it would be a cause and affect
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No, because once the first wheel reaches its maximum traction point, it will continue to provide that much traction until both tires are sliding. It won't provide any more traction beyond that though, so any additional weight is put on the remaining tire, so you can't really push it much farther after the first tire is at its maximum. If you ride the maximum of the inside tire it would probably be just a fraction of a second slower than if you rode the maximum of the outside tire.
 
Well it also depends on what type of limited slip differential you have, what it's gearings are, and what's it's allowance
 
Originally posted by Driftster
no doesn't bolt straight on at all, from what I hear, QUITE a bit of work. HEy think of it as practice for HKS
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You're serious? I'd be happy to help you plan it, I love that stuff, but unless you wanna pay a whole lot of shipping, you'd be better of building it locally. Where do you live? Are there decent performance shops around there that can do the work you can't do yourself?
 
what you are really interested in gauging weight transfer is spring displacement of the suspension and such.... it is really the force of the spring that is forcing the wheel to touch the ground... so even with a stiffer spring the same force will be applied as a looser one... in the ideal sense... too stiff and it could cause it to be too rigir and roll over... too loose the car could reach its limit of displacement... set by the strut and such... and the car would not be able to deliver very large normal force to the wheels during cornering loads... when i say cornering load that is due to the fact that there is a centripetal force acting onf hte cm of hte car dependent upon velocity and radius... this centripetal force is directly related to the friction force on the tires on the ground which points into the corner... as its resisting the sliding out movement of hte car... these forces create a moment aobut the cm of hte car... this moment is balanced by the upward force of the suspension springs... which means that the outside suspension must be greater than the inside to compensate and balance the moment so the car doesnt roll over... this is only for straight cornering without acc of anytype... when acc is introduced back or front wheels may take the brunt of the load...

i am not sure if the load on all four tires combined can ever be more than the weight of the car... wouldnt make sense now would it... but later i will check... with some real car figures and an approximate cm...

anyways... it is defintely possible to get your tires to almost there max potential together... without too much tuning... tuing will make it easier...
 
To answer question 1, yes i'm seriously 2 I live in Az and 3 Versus Motorsports sucks, does that answer your question. We have some other good shops IE Xtreme something or other I forgot, but they charge like 800 bucks for EXHAUST come on now.
 
Originally posted by bengee
what you are really interested in gauging weight transfer is spring displacement of the suspension and such.... it is really the force of the spring that is forcing the wheel to touch the ground... so even with a stiffer spring the same force will be applied as a looser one... in the ideal sense... too stiff and it could cause it to be too rigir and roll over... too loose the car could reach its limit of displacement... set by the strut and such... and the car would not be able to deliver very large normal force to the wheels during cornering loads... when i say cornering load that is due to the fact that there is a centripetal force acting onf hte cm of hte car dependent upon velocity and radius... this centripetal force is directly related to the friction force on the tires on the ground which points into the corner... as its resisting the sliding out movement of hte car... these forces create a moment aobut the cm of hte car... this moment is balanced by the upward force of the suspension springs... which means that the outside suspension must be greater than the inside to compensate and balance the moment so the car doesnt roll over... this is only for straight cornering without acc of anytype... when acc is introduced back or front wheels may take the brunt of the load...
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Sorry, I didn't mean the springs, I was referring to the dampers. Dampers control compression and decompression so a tighter damper setup will cause less weight transfer. That's why most serious drifters in real life use short-strokes.
 
yup yup... that is correct... dampeners can resist the change in motion and restore the original value... ti basically stops the springs from bouncing too... suspensions are so complicated... but that is what i am interested int eh most... ok i gotta study for a goddam midterm that i have tomorrow in goddam electrical engineering... goddam
 
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