FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Saidur_Ali]

Doubt it for a pad user.

The nature of the control input requires an assist.

Translating 1 inch of lateral movement into 900* requires something at least. IMHO.

Depends on if you can call changing steering rate an assist? It is a bit like changing steering lock that you can on some wheels like the Fanatec's. I take that is an assist too. GT5 gives you the option of steering rate as controller sensitivity, but what we are talking about Forza is active steering being enabled so I would be disappointed if it was not disabled for a pad user when most other games, no assists mean literally no assists. If I want active steering on in GT5 with a pad I can do this, with Forza 3 there is no option to turn it off for both pad and wheel.

 

[JDMKING13]

Doubt it for a pad user.

The nature of the control input requires an assist.

Translating 1 inch of lateral movement into 900* requires something at least. IMHO.

I play with a controller with GT5 sometimes when I don't want to use the wheel. Is it the same for GT5?

 

[zr1chris]

I play with a controller with GT5 sometimes when I don't want to use the wheel. Is it the same for GT5?

In my opinion Forza is MUCH easier to control with a regular controller than GT5 so I would imagine its not the same.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Cut the crap already, seriously.

Why do you and Dee insist on trolling every thread?

 

[James1436]

You also did say this underlined: "it is going to be more understeery because of the steering assist." I'm not going to put a lot of steering lock anyway with a wheel as that usually is not the fastest way. You need to minimise steering input usually to drive fast.

I meant the pad steering assist will make it more understeery. I mean, its never good to put alot of steering lock with a wheel going fast, but Forza 3 limits pad users steering lock so much, the cars will tend to understeer more.

 

[Spagetti69]

Haven't tried this so bare with me it's going to sound odd.

Go to an exterior cam and watch your front wheels.

Mash the stick like your playing track and field.
Do the wheels go from lock to lock 8 times per second.

If so then ok the wheels are not dampened or anything and I suppose it's real as far as direct response from pad to wheel is concerned.

Or is there a delay effect ( which would assume some form of assist ).

Either way there's sone form off assist.

Try it from stand still and on a straight see if the results are the same. I haven't a clue, never thought to try it.

I'll give it a bash myself tomorrow. It's late and I'm off to bed.

Good night.

 

[Da-Bomber]

Doubt it for a pad user.

The nature of the control input requires an assist.

Translating 1 inch of lateral movement into 900* requires something at least. IMHO.

It'll be pretty close though and anything is better than the annoying steer assist in 3.

 

[JDMKING13]

In my opinion Forza is MUCH easier to control with a regular controller than GT5 so I would imagine its not the same.

I agree with you 100% on that man. 👍

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I meant the pad steering assist will make it more understeery. I mean, its never good to put alot of steering lock with a wheel going fast, but Forza 3 limits pad users steering lock so much, the cars will tend to understeer more.

I understand what you mean.

Haven't tried this so bare with me it's going to sound odd.

Go to an exterior cam and watch your front wheels.

Mash the stick like your playing track and field.
Do the wheels go from lock to lock 8 times per second.

If so then ok the wheels are not dampened or anything and I suppose it's real as far as direct response from pad to wheel is concerned.

Or is there a delay effect ( which would assume some form of assist ).

Either way there's sone form off assist.

Try it from stand still and on a straight see if the results are the same. I haven't a clue, never thought to try it.

I'll give it a bash myself tomorrow. It's late and I'm off to bed.

Good night.

Just for fun:



I would love to try this for real.

 

[Scaff]

Plus, look at Cote de Azure, that's nowhere close to the real Monaco GP track.

With reason.

Its not called the Monaco GP track because they don't have the licence for it, if the track was identical they could well end up facing a legal case in regard to it. Its also why the track is set in France and not Monaco.

The track is close enough to avoid that while remaining a 'homage' to the GP track.

Scaff

 

[G.T.Ace]

Why do you and Dee insist on trolling every thread?

When I'm trolling, what are your "Ok " posts then? Either discuss, or don't post at all. Zer0 proved that the real-life tracks in GT5 are almost spot-on (even the city tracks are really close) which makes your "argument" that only the Nürburgring is close invalid, unless you can prove otherwise.

And if the only thing you can think of is "Ok " now, or another dumb comment directed at me, it will just prove my opinion of you.

 

[Scaff]

Why do you and Dee insist on trolling every thread?

I strongly suggest you re-read the original post in this thread and ensure that you do not post in this manner again.

Holding a differing opinion to you does not constitute trolling and should you try and pull this again you will be taking a holiday from GT Planet.

It does look like members need a quick reminder of the AUP and the standards of posting that is acceptable here at GT Planet. As such this thread goes on a zero tolerance status for the next 48 hours, any AUP violation or violation of the posting guidelines in the first post will be rewarded with a 48 hour time out.


Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

With reason.

Its not called the Monaco GP track because they don't have the licence for it, if the track was identical they could well end up facing a legal case in regard to it. Its also why the track is set in France and not Monaco.

The track is close enough to avoid that while remaining a 'homage' to the GP track.

Scaff

It is also based off an older layout of the track I believe as far as barriers goes.

 

[HBK]

With reason.

Its not called the Monaco GP track because they don't have the licence for it, if the track was identical they could well end up facing a legal case in regard to it. Its also why the track is set in France and not Monaco.

The track is close enough to avoid that while remaining a 'homage' to the GP track.

Scaff

I wonder. Isn't this track mostly based on public roads ? If so, how could anyone prevent PD from recreating those roads ? I mean, they don't belong to any private company. They can be considered the property of the Principality of Monaco, but given they are subject to public access, I doubt anyone could legally prevent any company to recreate these roads. But I may be wrong.

 

[Bogie 19th]

When I'm trolling, what are your "Ok " posts then? Either discuss, or don't post at all. Zer0 proved that the real-life tracks in GT5 are almost spot-on (even the city tracks are really close) which makes your "argument" that only the Nürburgring is close invalid, unless you can prove otherwise.

At no time did I say the Ring was the ONLY track that was accurate in GT5. Clearly you haven't read all the posts here. The debate is always that the Ring in our GT5 is so accurate, and the Ring in our Forza is not. Though, that doesn't mean that the other tracks in Forza are NOT accurate, nor does it mean every track in GT5 is accurate. Really, did that need to be spelled out, considering the other posts before mine (including the videos Zero posted showing Forza's and GT5's accuracy?

Seriously, quit with the agenda.

And if the only thing you can think of is "Ok " now, or another dumb comment directed at me, it will just prove my opinion of you.

If you can have dumb comments, I am confident that we should all be able to.

I strongly suggest you re-read the original post in this thread and ensure that you do not post in this manner again.

Already read it and abide by it. Thanks.

Holding a differing opinion to you does not constitute trolling and should you try and pull this again you will be taking a holiday from GT Planet.

Agreed 100%, and spot on. Not sure where we differ there.

It does look like members need a quick reminder of the AUP and the standards of posting that is acceptable here at GT Planet. As such this thread goes on a zero tolerance status for the next 48 hours, any AUP violation or violation of the posting guidelines in the first post will be rewarded with a 48 hour time out.
Scaff
[/B]

^This.

 

[Scaff]

Agreed 100%, and spot on. Not sure where we differ there.

Well you certainly seem to have missed this.....

Accusations of 'Troll' simply because you don't like what someone says are also out

...which is kind of problem when you said this....

Why do you and Dee insist on trolling every thread?

...now just so we are clear about this, the point is not open for debate or discussion. Its either followed or the offending member is on holiday.


Scaff

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Alot of umad people here.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

At no time did I say the Ring was the ONLY track that was accurate in GT5. Clearly you haven't read all the posts here. The debate is always that the Ring in our GT5 is so accurate, and the Ring in our Forza is not. Though, that doesn't mean that the other tracks in Forza are NOT accurate, nor does it mean every track in GT5 is accurate. Really, did that need to be spelled out, considering the other posts before mine (including the videos Zero posted showing Forza's and GT5's accuracy?

Seriously, quit with the agenda.

Can you explain what you mean by this then?:

"Other than the Ring in GT5, that isn't the case though."

 

[Bogie 19th]

...which is kind of problem when you said this....

Indeed. My bad. I need to learn to ignore or use the report tool.

 

[VXR]

I still don't find FM3 all that understeery and it's nothing a throttle lift won't cure, which is pretty much how most cars react, even safety-first FWD ones like my own.

 

[t.o.]

Indeed. My bad. I need to learn to ignore or use the report tool.

Bogie just chill man. Right now I'm witnessing a fishing boat, a hook, line and sinker if you get my drift.

Let's look at some modern art. GT5 through the eyes of Salvador Dali :

They REALLY need to patch this up, pronto. It's embarrassing.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Why so sad

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I still don't find FM3 all that understeery and it's nothing a throttle lift won't cure, which is pretty much how most cars react, even safety-first FWD ones like my own.

Are you using a wheel? Anyway, with a pad I'm not getting next to no oversteer when lifting off throttle and the car is still understeering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wpEWBsem5E

Bogie just chill man. Right now I'm witnessing a fishing boat, a hook, line and sinker if you get my drift.

Let's look at some modern art. GT5 through the eyes of Salvador Dali :

They REALLY need to patch this up, pronto. It's embarrassing.

T10 also really need to patch up the damage and physics system in Forza 3. I mean hit a car at speed and it is sanded down all over or hit one light and the other light is broken. GT5 at least is trying to do a real time damage system, which when got right will look amazing in the future. Forza might still be just swapping over limited amount of fixed damage models. Yes like every crash is the same. Codemasters do a much better job with damage models than T10 do.

The tyre data used in FM3 is off by a lot according to T10 when compared to the new Pirelli data. Will they update it, or will they leave these super grippy tyres in the game. It is embarassing that they say when releasing Forza 3, what they are doing with the simulation is years ahead of every other simulation game and 2 years later say, when compared to real life data they are amazed how wrong they were or something along them lines.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Thats not realistic time damage system or whatever you call it.
That looks like they got a model and put a torch to it.
FM3s damage is impeccible, you hit a wall head on and your engine is gone.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

With reason.

Its not called the Monaco GP track because they don't have the licence for it, if the track was identical they could well end up facing a legal case in regard to it. Its also why the track is set in France and not Monaco.

The track is close enough to avoid that while remaining a 'homage' to the GP track.

Scaff

So that means they should make it twice as wide as the real one and add barriers where there are none in reality? Hmm, I seem to remember FM catching some serious flak just for widening a certain track....
Plus, it's all public roads, can they really require a license? I'm not a lawyer, but that seems a little suspect to me...

Anyways, on to this post:

T10 also really need to patch up the damage and physics system in Forza 3. I mean hit a car at speed and it is sanded down all over or hit one light and the other light is broken. GT5 at least is trying to do a real time damage system, which when got right will look amazing in the future. Forza might still be just swapping over limited amount of fixed damage models. Yes like every crash is the same. Codemasters do a much better job with damage models than T10 do.

Allow me to refer to one of my previous posts for a response to the first bolded portion of this quote:

As for the "real-time" damage thing, great. GT5 doesn't model swap. Who cares? It still gives the same effect, only in GT5 the effects are far more limited than they are in other games. If the "real time" damage is to blame for the melted-cheese look that cars get in GT5 when you have a collision, then I can safely say I prefer model swap damage. Also, all damage in all games is "real time" as it happens when you have an impact, not later or before. This "real time" damage that GT5 tries to flaunt just means that there's no model swapping involved, not that it's more accurate.
[...]
And all damage is pre-calculated. The game looks at the collision force and location (on the car) and uses that to apply suitable damage in both GT5 and FM3. The only difference is that in FM3 this damage is visually represented by a model swap for a damaged car, and in GT5 the original model is reconfigured. There is no way to implement damage in a simulation without using some form of pre-calculation because real world physical forces do not exist. Also, if there was no pre-calcualtion in GT5's damage, different body constructions would react differently to the same impact, which they do not.

As for the second bolded portion, yes. Codemasters does better damage than T10. Codemasters does better damage than PD too. Why didn't you point that out as well?

The tyre data used in FM3 is off by a lot according to T10 when compared to the new Pirelli data. Will they update it, or will they leave these super grippy tyres in the game. It is embarassing that they say when releasing Forza 3, what they are doing with the simulation is years ahead of every other simulation game and 2 years later say, when compared to real life data they are amazed how wrong they were or something along them lines.

Why should they patch FM3 with the new data when FM4 comes out in a couple months? It'd be wasted work. And if you're asking whether or not FM4 will use that data, I guess you didn't watch the whole interrview where Dan says like 10 times that the Pirelli data is being directly imported into FM4....
On the same note, at least FM3 has tire data. I'm becoming more and more convinced that GT5 doesn't simulate tire behavior in any appreciable way what so ever...
Also, in regards to the statement about what they said 2 years ago vs. what they're saying now: You think that the available technology to record and simulate tire data isn't more advanced now than it was 2 years ago? I want some of whatever you're having in that case. Of COURSE the new system is more advanced and more accurate than the old one, it has 2 years newer tech behind it. That's like me saying "It's sad how much better GT5'sphysics are compared to GT4; PD said that GT4 was the real driving simulator, and now GT5 has better physics?!?"
You see how ridiculous this becomes?

 

[t.o.]

T10 also really need to patch up the damage and physics system in Forza 3. I mean hit a car at speed and it is sanded down all over or hit one light and the other light is broken. GT5 at least is trying to do a real time damage system, which when got right will look amazing in the future. Forza might still be just swapping over limited amount of fixed damage models. Yes like every crash is the same. Codemasters do a much better job with damage models than T10 do.

Well when this changes to the "FM vs GT vs Codemasters" thread OR when PD hires Codemasters to their damage then I guess it would be a worth argument but I'll go along with it anyway. iRacing does racing better than PD. Naw, really didn't accomplish much with that statement. Matter fact iRacing does better damage than GT5. Really just about all up-to-date racing games does damage better than GT5 at the moment.

It doesn't really matter what GT5 is "trying" to do. It's what are they doing that matters. If GT6 was coming out in a few months, or they made some announcement that new damage was coming then we got grounds for debate but as it stands we're getting "When the Sun Attacks" kind of damage in GT5 and we're going to be keeping it for the unforeseeable future. Just like we're going to be stuck with the "quarter pounder" (less than 1/4 of all GT5 cars are premium, the rest standard) for a while.

The tyre data used in FM3 is off by a lot according to T10 when compared to the new Pirelli data. Will they update it, or will they leave these super grippy tyres in the game. It is embarassing that they say when releasing Forza 3, what they are doing with the simulation is years ahead of every other simulation game and 2 years later say, when compared to real life data they are amazed how wrong they were or something along them lines.

Your post is very misleading. First off who knows what kind of tires they were using. They could have just been using fictional tires like GT5. Who's to say the tire data they used couldn't be translated to build an actual tire. All they said was when they used Pirelli's data things changed. As they should, unless Turn10 is making knock-off Pirelli's on the side and selling them then things should change. Just as if they punched in Goodyear's data things would change. Would that mean Pirelli tires are now embarrassing? No , it just means it's different data and is producing different results as to be expected. Clearly you know this right? You didn't really think it would be the exact same results did you?

Of COURSE the new system is more advanced and more accurate than the old one, it has 2 years newer tech behind it. That's like me saying "It's sad how much better GT5'sphysics are compared to GT4; PD said that GT4 was the real driving simulator, and now GT5 has better physics?!?"
You see how ridiculous this becomes?

Indeed, and it's really making me wonder...

 

[GumShoe]

It is embarassing that they say when releasing Forza 3, what they are doing with the simulation is years ahead of every other simulation game and 2 years later say, when compared to real life data they are amazed how wrong they were or something along them lines.

Can you provide a source for the "years ahead" statement please?

Forza 3 at least models tyre deformation, tyre pressure, tyre width and aero damage, something GT5 doesn't do, and which was released over a year later... So technically, the Forza 3 is at least 'years ahead' of GT5 in physics (whether it 'feels' like it or not).

And using among the most common of GT5 responses - They may not have done them perfectly, but at least they're there, right?

 

[Zer0]

That's like me saying "It's sad how much better GT5'sphysics are compared to GT4; PD said that GT4 was the real driving simulator, and now GT5 has better physics?!?"
You see how ridiculous this becomes?

More like:

With the next generation of technology almost upon us, how do you hope to use that to push the envelope of the driving genre?

Kazunori: Let's take the category of car physics: currently in GT4 on the PS2, the calculations for car physics are done sixty times a second, the same as the framerate. But with the next generation coming and higher specifications, we think this could change to 300 times per second or even 600 times per second.

Those changes will be significant in how players relate to car physics, car simulation and feedback.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/105605/exclusive-kazunori-on-gran-turismo-4/

Plus, it's all public roads, can they really require a license? I'm not a lawyer, but that seems a little suspect to me...

https://www.gtplanet.net/sienas-flags-removed-from-gt5s-piazza-del-campo-circuit/

Finally banned as a track.

 

[Da-Bomber]

Forza has always done better damage/collisions then GT and that will probably never change anytime soon.

 

[Machate-man]

Forza has always done better damage/collisions than GT and that will probably never change anytime soon.

A combination of these factors:

FM's Damage model
GT5's Physics
FM's Autovista detail for all cars*
FM's livery editor
FM's Variety of cars
FM's Freedom of tuning(No engine swaps in GT5:tdown
GT5's Photomode environments

Would make the ultimate current-gen racing simulator
However...Since more options go to Forza, I would take that over GT:idea:

*I know this isn't possible, but wouldn't it be nice