FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[GumShoe]

A combination of these factors:

FM's Damage model
GT5's Physics Feel
FM's Autovista detail for all cars*
FM's livery editor
FM's Variety of cars
FM's Freedom of tuning(No engine swaps in GT5:tdown
GT5's Photomode environments

Would make the ultimate current-gen racing simulator
However...Since more options go to Forza, I would take that over GT:idea:

*I know this isn't possible, but wouldn't it be nice

There, fixed it for ya

 

[Nooboogering]

Even with all thathas been written by Forza and Gran Turismo zealots, they are still games and don't come close to reality. Enjoyment can be established from both games within a little time. I doubt either developer will have the upper hand and be considered the winner. GT vs Forza and we win every time. Reading through the posts you would think that the outcome will be a win for Forza 4 until (if life spare) Scaff opens a thread in the GT board entitled GT6 vs Forza 4.
And so what if Forza 5 or Forza 6 is out before GT6, play Forza or another race title game until PD releases their game. If that is their trend to to release a long awaited game, so be it.
Who can tell what technology these developers will implement in the future and at what rate? Technology evolves every day and both consoles are ready for renewal. We are really blessed to see racing games at this level with this amount of critique and this thread is testament that we enjoy both titles. I'm sure every one can agree to that.

 

[Da-Bomber]

There, fixed it for ya

If they got the feel right then they have to have something in their physics done right.

 

[Spagetti69]

If they got the feel right then they have to have something in their physics done right.

Think I've mentioned this before but GT5 covers a lot of bases with it's options.

9 levels of grip. Then the option to change the front and rear levels adds even more variety.

Assisted physics and non assisted physics.

Online physics and offline physics (not sure what that is all about but I've read it somewhere).

Combine that lot and your going to struggle to not find a setup that feels realistic to some.

It can go from arcade to sim with a few simple choices.

Quite clever really, give the player a huge amount of combos to find there level.

 

[HBK]

https://www.gtplanet.net/sienas-flags-removed-from-gt5s-piazza-del-campo-circuit/

Finally banned as a track.

The link you provided simply indicates that PD couldn't use legally protected logos (flags). We don't know why the entire track was removed from the game.

 

[jabofu]

Think I've mentioned this before but GT5 covers a lot of bases with it's options.

9 levels of grip. Then the option to change the front and rear levels adds even more variety.

Assisted physics and non assisted physics.

Online physics and offline physics (not sure what that is all about but I've read it somewhere).

Combine that lot and your going to struggle to not find a setup that feels realistic to some.

It can go from arcade to sim with a few simple choices.

Quite clever really, give the player a huge amount of combos to find there level.

That is normally not a bad thing, but for the "real driving simulator" there should not not be an arcade option. I think the driving assists should be enough for starters of such a game.

And the nine tyre options go from ice driving to driving on rails. In reality there are really bad tyres, but normally nobody should use such and there are glue-like tyres, which are only for qualifying with 1-3 rounds of lifetime.

The main problem with GT5 is that it isnt a solid GT like GT4 was. Many features that have been added doesnt feel rooted to the game.

The complete menus are a horrid experience and nowhere userfriendly. A broken levelup system, a multiplayer mode that comes right from the 90's, copied event names from previous titles "sunday cup", and more.

And the range of wheels to choose from is a joke, its nearly as good as the selection that TDU 1 offered. Then you cant change tyre width or wheel size. To adjust the tyre pressure is also not an option, which is quite important. Tyre pressure is a substancial part of a car setting and takes a strong effect on car handling. But GT5 doesnt need this, right?

By the way, does GT5 simulate Tyre Deformation? It is not that FM3 invented it, most of the new sim racers like Iracing, rfactor 2 and others do feature it. Would be interesting if GT5 does it.

And about damage. Both of the games cant feature fully realistic damage, because after a hard crash a car is normally not going to work after it.

Some examples:
http://youtu.be/he6TL15pJtw
http://youtu.be/joMK1WZjP7g
http://youtu.be/5Y4yIjT83kA

 

[Scaff]

So that means they should make it twice as wide as the real one and add barriers where there are none in reality?

If you want to avoid legal action then yes, and it’s far from twice as wide and given that its technically a fantasy track they could do whatever they want with it.

Hmm, I seem to remember FM catching some serious flak just for widening a certain track....

And were it called 'Fantasy German Track near a castle' then it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference however it’s not, it’s a licensed version of the track and as such should have been as accurate a possible.

You seem unable or unwilling to see the difference between changes made to an unlicensed track to avoid legal issues and changes made to a licenced track to make it easier when playing on-line.

Plus, it's all public roads, can they really require a license? I'm not a lawyer, but that seems a little suspect to me...

Would you want to risk the legal action, particurlry given that the principality of Monaco is reknowned for protecting its image add on the same for the FIA and you have a totally different situation.

The public roads alone are not the issue, its the second you put barriers up and turn those public roads into a race track, now its more than just public roads its a racing event and race circuit and those can and are 'owned'. In this case its controlled by the FIA and the Automobile Club de Monaco.

The track and event is a licenced entity (see any F1 game) and given that PD were succesfully challenged over a similar issue with one of the kart tracks in GT5 then I would have to disagree with you. Oh and just to further illustrate the point, the Nurburgring is also a public road, yet I don't see you applying the same argument to that.



Scaff

 

[t.o.]

Even with all thathas been written by Forza and Gran Turismo zealots, they are still games and don't come close to reality. Enjoyment can be established from both games within a little time. I doubt either developer will have the upper hand and be considered the winner. GT vs Forza and we win every time. Reading through the posts you would think that the outcome will be a win for Forza 4 until (if life spare) Scaff opens a thread in the GT board entitled GT6 vs Forza 4.
And so what if Forza 5 or Forza 6 is out before GT6, play Forza or another race title game until PD releases their game. If that is their trend to to release a long awaited game, so be it.
Who can tell what technology these developers will implement in the future and at what rate? Technology evolves every day and both consoles are ready for renewal. We are really blessed to see racing games at this level with this amount of critique and this thread is testament that we enjoy both titles. I'm sure every one can agree to that.

I agree with the tone of your post and up until a few months after GT5's release I would agree with the whole thing but the bolded part I can no longer agree with. I know some , well most of you think I'm some Forza loyalist. But would a Forza loyalist buy a G27 in anticipation for a game he didn't like AND buy a Fanatec so that way he could play both games? I think not but that's what I did. I have a G27 sitting in a box practically brand new (gotta be less than 5 hours on it IF even close to that). Went out my way to get setup for GT5 the game that I thought would have me "put Forza on the shelf" in my own words. Hell, came dangerously close to buying another PS3 to play in my mancave in case the wife wanted to use the PS3 for netflix. Once the "new car smell" wore off I suddenly started to see the second rate welds and mildew from the flooded carpet. It just doesn't strike me as a game that's "come a long way". It reminds me of Dragon Lair back in the day when I first played it. Laserdisc (kinda the grandfather of the DVD, Bigger than a album, oh wait, an album is the father of the cassette tape, oh wait forgot how young some of you are, the cassette tape is the father of the CD, oh wait some of you really young might not even use that, the CD was the father of the iPod) with true animated graphics but the game itself sucked.

EDIT: Damn that made me feel old

 

[VXR]

Are you using a wheel? Anyway, with a pad I'm not getting next to no oversteer when lifting off throttle and the car is still understeering.

No, just a regular wireless pad.

In that video you posted, I didn't actually see any understeer and oversteer on at least two occasions.

 

[HBK]

And the nine tyre options go from ice driving to driving on rails. In reality there are really bad tyres, but normally nobody should use such and there are glue-like tyres, which are only for qualifying with 1-3 rounds of lifetime.

Oh my, do I agree 👍

Also, in response to Spagetti69, the fact that online physics are different than offline physics can hardly be counted as a good thing, especially when online physics can feel so wrong sometimes.

 

[HBK]

If you want to avoid legal action then yes, and it’s far from twice as wide and given that its technically a fantasy track they could do whatever they want with it.

I doubt the FIA or the Automobile Club de Monaco could take any legal action against someone portraying public roads, even when portrayed as modified for racing, especially if it's clearly identified as a fantasy track.

I think they may take legal action if they would copy the exact same layout, as it is most likely copyrighted.

Of course, all related names are most likely trademarked, hence the "Côte d'Azur" in Gran Turismo.

But as long as they don't use any ambiguous name or copy the exact same layout, they should be safe from legal action.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Why should we move the goal posts to suit GT5 by omitting 80% of the games content*, we wouldnt do that for any other game, if we are to judge these games, GT should be held to the same standards imo.

No other game has two types of graphical models like GT5 has. Plus, the fact that GT5 has those premium models shows the true capabilities of it's graphical engine. It's not like the premium models have different game modes, they are all in the same game. The standard models just goes to show something about PD, not about the game.

The bottom line is: You can't say that GT5's graphics are bad or outdated, because the game has both amazing and poor parts of it's engine used at the same time.

And lastly (though I can't really say that after saying bottom line), if every time when someone mentions GT5's premium models someone else jumps the gun with standard models, then yes - It is being held by that same standard you seem to look for.

 

[Spagetti69]

Also, in response to Spagetti69, the fact that online physics are different than offline physics can hardly be counted as a good thing, especially when online physics can feel so wrong sometimes.

I'm not saying that's it's a good thing really.
TBH I don't even understand the online offline physics thing myself.

It's a case of if you cast your net far and wide. ( Many different types of physics ) your going to catch something in the end.

GT has the bases covered. Find your own particular sweet spot and it will feel right for you. Anything else can be passed off as arcade to help beginners.

Collision physics which I harp on about have only the one dynamic and let's it down a bit.

Forzas online private lobbies allow far more tweaking if I remember correctly.
I never really used them but it would have been nice to have them offline for trial and error testing.

 

[Scaff]

I doubt the FIA or the Automobile Club de Monaco could take any legal action against someone portraying public roads, even when portrayed as modified for racing, especially if it's clearly identified as a fantasy track.

I think they may take legal action if they would copy the exact same layout, as it is most likely copyrighted.

Of course, all related names are most likely trademarked, hence the "Côte d'Azur" in Gran Turismo.

But as long as they don't use any ambiguous name or copy the exact same layout, they should be safe from legal action.

Which is exactly what I've said?


Scaff

 

[jabofu]

So that means they should make it twice as wide as the real one

Just to make things clear. The real Nürburgring Nordschleife isnt as narrow as many of the people think it is. I drove it by myself and I was shocked how wide it was, because even in Forza it looked pretty narrow.

Sure there are quite a few curbs that are not correct and some other parts might be not like the real thing, but it is not too wide.

 

[Scaff]

Just to make things clear. The real Nürburgring Nordschleife isnt as narrow as many of the people think it is. I drove it by myself and I was shocked how wide it was, because even in Forza it looked pretty narrow.

I've also driven it and parts of it are wide and parts are far more norrow that an average circuit.

Sure there are quite a few curbs that are not correct and some other parts might be not like the real thing, but it is not too wide.

FM3's 'ring is much better in that regard, prioir to that it was far wider than the real circuit, to the point that the changes actually made the track longer than it is.


Scaff

 

[HBK]

It's a case of if you cast your net far and wide. ( Many different types of physics ) your going to catch something in the end.

GT has the bases covered. Find your own particular sweet spot and it will feel right for you. Anything else can be passed off as arcade to help beginners.

Oh, I agree. GT5 has its own way of doing what Turn10 constantly brag about, having a large range of assist so that even "unskilled" players can have fun.

It's just that in my opinion, the offline vs. online physics is an even greater fiasco than all the Premiums Vs. Standards BS, especially as it's pretty much hidden and nothing has ever been said about this (except the fact that it's here and that many may speculate about it).

Honestly, the main problem I have with the Standards is the absence of cockpit view. I'm not that much of a graphics whore so I can definitely live with the graphical level of the Standards (except some butt ugly PS1 models). I mean, it's not like I play in external view, and while racing with other cars, the difference, even if noticeable, is not THAT big in my opinion.

Which is exactly what I've said?

Sorry, I may have misunderstood your point. We are in agreement then

Just to make things clear. The real Nürburgring Nordschleife isnt as narrow as many of the people think it is. I drove it by myself and I was shocked how wide it was, because even in Forza it looked pretty narrow.

Having seen many videos of the 'ring, can safely say that this is also my impression. It may have something to do with varying FOVs though.

 

[Spagetti69]

I'm in agreement with you on the standards. It's the cockpit for me too.
Not too bothered by the look of them and they have some pretty decent cars.
E-type.

 

[amar212]

I doubt the FIA or the Automobile Club de Monaco could take any legal action against someone portraying public roads, even when portrayed as modified for racing, especially if it's clearly identified as a fantasy track.

OK, than following should be interesting to discuss.

There are two other games, one is called SuperChallenge (PS3 exclusive) other is called Shift 2: Unleashed (multiplatform). Both have the same *fantasy* location called the same - Riviera. Of course, that Rivera is Monte Carlo city.

However.

None SCC nor Shift have used Monaco GP track layout in their games, not even Shift 2 that boosts 6 different layouts of the Riviera, one on almost 90% of roads using the GP Circuit. But actual GP circuit is simply not there.

Third game is DIrt 3. Codemasters used many assets form their F1 license to build street-parts of circuits for Dirt 3 Monte Carlo Rally, but GP layout is nowhere to be found.

I will go even further and say that as far as I can remember Gran Turismo is the only game in recent existence - post 2000 - that uses Monaco GP circuit layout - although with some modifications in road width and such - outside games which have FOA license and are including Monaco GP under license. Reason for that? Nobody knows. But more interesting is how no other game actually uses Monaco GP layout, not even games that have Monte Carlo *location" and it's streets.

Worth considering.

 

[PzR Slim]

OK, than following should be interesting to discuss.

There are two other games, one is called SuperChallenge (PS3 exclusive) other is called Shift 2: Unleashed (multiplatform). Both have the same *fantasy* location called the same - Riviera. Of course, that Rivera is Monte Carlo city.

However.

None SCC nor Shift have used Monaco GP track layout in their games, not even Shift 2 that boosts 6 different layouts of the Riviera, one on almost 90% of roads using the GP Circuit. But actual GP circuit is simply not there.

Third game is DIrt 3. Codemasters used many assets form their F1 license to build street-parts of circuits for Dirt 3 Monte Carlo Rally, but GP layout is nowhere to be found.

I will go even further and say that as far as I can remember Gran Turismo is the only game in recent existence - post 2000 - that uses Monaco GP circuit layout - although with some modifications in road width and such - outside games which have FOA license and are including Monaco GP under license. Reason for that? Nobody knows. But more interesting is how no other game actually uses Monaco GP layout, not even games that have Monte Carlo *location" and it's streets.

Worth considering.

Back to 1999 we have to go.

Monaco Grand Prix known in Europe as Monaco Grand Prix: Racing Simulation 2 is a Formula one racing game for the Nintendo 64, Sony Playstation, and Sega Dreamcast. It was released in 1999. The game is based on the Formula One World Championship, but does not have the licence to use drivers names, official cars etc. (The licence was held by Video System at the time who made F-1 World Grand Prix and F-1 World Grand Prix II.) The game does however have a licence to use Formula One's official sponsors; Schweppes and Castrol among others[citation needed]. This helps to add to the authenticity of the game.
The sequel to F1 Racing Simulation recreates the 1997 season, featuring 17 authentic tracks, 11 teams and cars with their 22 drivers. The Monaco license is used, although the teams themselves are not licensed. A total of 22 camera views are provided. Telemetry is stored and analysed in a similar way to Grand Prix 2, and physics are modeled to be realistic. There are eight different modes to race, the new ones being a career mode in which you start with a poor team and must drive well enough to earn competitive rides, and scenarios recreating key races for particular drivers. Returning from the first game are Time Attack, a full championship, and a 50s retro mode. There is also a track editor to create your own tracks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaco_Grand_Prix_(video_game)

And a vid featuring arguably the worst standard of driving ever seen in a racing game!

 

[HBK]

[Moncao GP video game history]

Worth considering.

As I said, the exact layout is most likely copyrighted. And if I were to venture into speculation territory, I would say that even if developers can be safe from legal action, they may want to obtain the license in the future, and therefore would not want to risk alienating any future collaboration.

 

[Evian]

Love this video 👍

 

[Luminis]

The bottom line is: You can't say that GT5's graphics are bad or outdated, because the game has both amazing and poor parts of it's engine used at the same time.

What's with the messed up shadows and smoke, then? Or are those ruled out, too, because of some reason or another?

It puzzles me that we shouldn't criticize GT5 for using 800 outdated models. Especially since it's claiming to feature 1000+ cars, not 200. They're part of one of the bullet points PD put on the cover/backside of their game, but we're supposed to ignore them?

Seems arbitrary to me, but okay...

 

[Bogie 19th]

We can't criticize GT5 at all, but we CAN criticize Forza for having an inaccurate Ring.

 

[zr1chris]

Love this video 👍

Nice video!! That guy is on hell of a drifter. 👍

It puzzles me that we shouldn't criticize GT5 for using 800 outdated models.

I think its been criticized to death already and rightfully so. Maybe not so much on this thread specifically but it definitely has.

 

[Luminis]

I think its been criticized to death already and rightfully so. Maybe not so much on this thread specifically but it definitely has.

Still, we're discussing the advantages and disadvantages of both games, right?

I mean, it's not like Forza 3's wasn't discussed to death at least twice, and it's still brought up here - and nobody seems to mind. But, fine with me. No more criticism towards GT5's standard cars. Anything else that's considered out of bounds?

 

[HBK]

You're going on one hell of a slippery slope ...

 

[Bogie 19th]

Maybe come up with full fledged list of features of each racer, as well as a list of negatives and positives, then leave it up to Scaff to determine which topic/feature/negative/positive item can be discussed according to the thread rules.

 

[cuco33]

Sorry but standards exist in GT5. 80% of them fall under this category. It sucks there's a disparity but one shouldn't only be focusing on the premiums. One should also note how gorgeous premiums can be just as how last gen the standards are. It's not 10 or 20 cars. It's 800, almost double what Forza 3's count was. There's even race series in the career that can only be used with standard cars so you can't neglect them at all. To me they shouldn't be swept under the rug but in a way I'm glad they are there.

It is what it is. The actual game play in racing is the same aside from the lack of cockpit views. It's when you want to slap wheels or go to a phototravel location that you're locked out of.
Some of my favorite cars are standards like the VW mk1 Rabbit GTI and it's not the best looking car in the game. The rear hatch window looks jagged, the headlights look like a 2D painted texture, even the text 'GOLF' is very blocky... but I'd rather have the Rabbit GTI than not. I would be taking a lot more pics of it, especially in photo travel locations, if it looked better.

 

[Scaff]

The bottom line is: You can't say that GT5's graphics are bad or outdated, because the game has both amazing and poor parts of it's engine used at the same time.

The last time I checked you were not a member of staff and as such it would be appreciated if you refrained from stating what can and can't be discussed.

Now I know that was not what you intended by your post, but it certainly can be taken that was, and as such I would advise a little more caution when posting in future.

What's with the messed up shadows and smoke, then? Or are those ruled out, too, because of some reason or another?

It puzzles me that we shouldn't criticize GT5 for using 800 outdated models. Especially since it's claiming to feature 1000+ cars, not 200. They're part of one of the bullet points PD put on the cover/backside of their game, but we're supposed to ignore them?

Seems arbitrary to me, but okay...

It's not arbitrary, if its not breaking the AUP or thread guidelines then you can discuss it.

We can't criticize GT5 at all, but we CAN criticize Forza for having an inaccurate Ring.

A little more of a reasoned response would be appreciated, because if you can't find a post being critical of GT5 in here then I would have to wonder if we are looking at the same thread.

Inflammatory comments are not helpful.


Scaff