FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[zr1chris]

That Eurogamer thing makes me a bit nervous. Why are RWD cars understeering anywhere?

 

[Da-Bomber]

That's awesome however, I don't know if that include the the steering assist because In FM3 you can turn off all the assist, but they never had an option for the steering assist, it was just always on. Still good news going off the description though lets hope they have a steering assist option. 👍

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAqokvfQGfc
At 16 sec you will see the steering option. This was known about a month ago.

 

[Luminis]

I don't remember his exact wording, but Dan himself said in an interview or presentation that we are supposed to experience "unadulterated automotive fury", or something along those lines... I know, he's good with words, but I think it's safe to assume that they've learned their lesson with the assist this time. All the flack they've taken for it should be enough to motivate them to make it optional this time around.

I at least hope so
But you're right, JDMKING13, the discriptions do imply that it's going to be that way, at least 👍

That Eurogamer thing makes me a bit nervous. Why are RWD cars understeering anywhere?

Because, from what I've heard, most road cars are pretty understeery by nature, due to the way they're set up (safety and all), I think. It's not like every RWD car oversteers all the time like what's shown in Top Gear. Especially if the driver isn't very, well, competent. And that's something I would assume would be somewhat true for Eurogamer's reporter... Otherwise, there would've been no "spitting into the environment"

 

[JDMKING13]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAqokvfQGfc
At 16 sec you will see the steering option. This was known about a month ago.

Nice!!! This is going to be interesting.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Great video evidence that you've provided us with there. I'd had otherwise assumed that this post was just another baseless accusation against the "other" game, spawned entirely out of bias and jealousy. 👍

Who is this us you speak of? We don't even know who you are.

 

[Scaff]

That Eurogamer thing makes me a bit nervous. Why are RWD cars understeering anywhere?

Because, from what I've heard, most road cars are pretty understeery by nature, due to the way they're set up (safety and all), I think. It's not like every RWD car oversteers all the time like what's shown in Top Gear. Especially if the driver isn't very, well, competent. And that's something I would assume would be somewhat true for Eurogamer's reporter... Otherwise, there would've been no "spitting into the environment"

100% correct.

Almost every road car made is set-up to initially understeer on the limit, and that includes RWD cars. The vast majority you have to push through to get them to oversteer.

My old 3 series did exactly that, get to a wet roundabout and initially you would have understeer, however keep the throttle going and it would transition to oversteer.

Its one of the things that GT4 actually got right, that road cars will initially understeer (and many quite heavily), it was the transition past that and into oversteer that didn't happen as it should in GT4 (that and the lack of throttle adjustment to correct understeer when you backed off the throttle).

It's the characteristic that almost every 'sim' made falls short on, realistic initial understeer on roadcars (and I've driven more that enough in my years in the industry to know).


Scaff

 

[PzR Slim]

100% correct.

Almost every road car made is set-up to initially understeer on the limit, and that includes RWD cars. The vast majority you have to push through to get them to oversteer.

My old 3 series did exactly that, get to a wet roundabout and initially you would have understeer, however keep the throttle going and it would transition to oversteer.

Its one of the things that GT4 actually got right, that road cars will initially understeer (and many quite heavily), it was the transition past that and into oversteer that didn't happen as it should in GT4 (that and the lack of throttle adjustment to correct understeer when you backed off the throttle).

It's the characteristic that almost every 'sim' made falls short on, realistic initial understeer on roadcars (and I've driven more that enough in my years in the industry to know).


Scaff

Yep, I think I've said it before but from a safety point of view the average driver is going to find it easier to sort out an understeering car compared to an oversteering car. And if they can't the accident that results is probably not going to be as dramatic and will more than likely be head on which is a better accident to have than a side impact accident.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Ugh! I stand corrected. I went and took the 2010 Camaro SS, all assists off, in both Forza 3 and GT5 on the Ring, in the same section of the track in the video posted here (the one with the Enzo), and the Camaro in GT5 was pretty much unrecoverable at the speeds matching the Enzo. In FM3, the car was a complete squirrel off the line, but at the speeds shown by the Enzo, I had no problem retaining control, even when hitting the grass.

I then did the same test with the Enzo in FM3, and reproduced the video findings. I have not purchased the Enzo in GT5 however.

Eating crow as we speak, I am.

 

[HBK]

I dont know either but I would imagine it would be even harder than driving it in real life which makes that video even better proof that something is a miss. Its obviously got allot to do with that hidden steering assist that you cant turn off.

Of course something is amiss. It's just that when I first got my 360 compatible wheel, I almost didn't recognize the game. The steering assist is way less intrusive with a wheel than with a controller. And I mean WAY less.

So saying "something is wrong look he's playing with all assists off" is factually wrong. He's playing with a huge steering assist ... and a pad. Seriously, how can you speak of realism when playing with a pad ?

 

[HBK]

You don't know what lobster claws are do you? They fixed the way the guy held the steering wheel with the index and thumb. Now he grips the whole steering wheel and the turn animations are much better.

You may want to take a second look at that video. He's STILL holding the wheel with only the index and thumb. You don't see it clearly because of the overexposed picture, but it's basically the same hand positioning than Forza 3.

 

[zr1chris]

Seriously, how can you speak of realism when playing with a pad ?

You can't. I never said you could.

 

[Bogie 19th]

You may want to take a second look at that video. He's STILL holding the wheel with only the index and thumb. You don't see it clearly because of the overexposed picture, but it's basically the same hand positioning than Forza 3.

We must all be looking at different videos then. Many of us clearly see a difference and improvement.

 

[Spagetti69]

Steering with his thumb. That's ok. It's for pad users to feel good about themselves.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

If Video games had the same initial understeer as real life, I'd be mad.
Thats not fun, thats getting too much into the sim thing
If you drive a car in real life you dont need to sim everything.
Whats next are they going to sim the smell of gas a carbon dioxide when you strip out your car?
Cause that would suck.


And hey! I use a pad!
Im gonna buy a GT2, but I prefer to play my video games with a video game controller.

 

[zr1chris]

If Video games had the same initial understeer as real life, I'd be mad.
Thats not fun, thats getting too much into the sim thing
If you drive a car in real life you dont need to sim everything.
Whats next are they going to sim the smell of gas a carbon dioxide when you strip out your car?
Cause that would suck.

And hey! I use a pad!
Im gonna buy a GT2, but I prefer to play my video games with a video game controller.

Dude relax, thats what the different settings are for. Sim for the hardcore sim guys and easy for the arcade type physics. Everyone wins.

 

[disinfected]

Dude relax, thats what the different settings are for. Sim for the hardcore sim guys and easy for the arcade type physics. Everyone wins.

On top of that no video game is ever going to get it's physics PERFECT.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Not sure I can fully relate to that.

Suzuka to my understanding has 3 variants. Except in GT land you get 2.

Le-Sarthe has a Bugatti variant in real life. Not in GT they don't.

Tsukuba also has a variant. That is also not available.

Maybe you think I'm taking your vague statement out of context.
Overall though I feel those Circuits have been better fully represented in F3.

You are right with the out of context part. I did not mean that but more about track accuracy. Like Suzuka in GT5 is close to being spot on but the way the turns are in FM3 are slightly different and I don't think it is due to when it was modelled. There is low grip on the hairpin in GT5 like in real life, not really sure with FM3 as there is so much grip regardless.

Here are videos of GT compared to real world tracks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ANEiJK72VA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFFRm3dl-Hc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1EEZe-Eqto

I wouldn't argue against that, because the lack of track accuracy in FM3 is one of my biggest issues with the game. However, if I'm looking at a picture, I can't tell a thing about the track accuracy. It's just about the lighting/colour saturation. GT5 and Forza seem to get it wrong, but fot GT5, it's its art style, and for FM3, it just looks cartoonish. Which seems strange.

And, looking at FM4, it did take a huge step forward, and people are still making that point: It looks cartoonish. When GT5 does depict the same things that make some people consider FM4's pictures to look cartoonish, I just wonder why GT5 isn't considered cartoonish, too.

GT5 gets the colour and lighting thing right most of the time. It is only when it is really sunny like in Monza when they over do it. The GT5 > Real mindset comes in but it gets fixed when it's less sunny on the same track. Forza 3 does not have change of weather which added with how the way the car colours look, it looks more cartoonish. I don’t know why they ruin the way tracks look like in Forza games by putting way too much rubber on the tracks so that adds to the cartoonish look even on to FM4.

I get that point, of course.

But, if we're cutting GT5 some slack for the sake of having an interesting discussion, why aren't we doing the same for Forza?

I don’t see many people cutting GT5 some slack. Forza, I’m expected to believe that majority of players can’t experience realistic grip levels / physics due to playing with a pad. That due to Forza has active steering permanently on, it is OK as other games steer for you in that way without any proof that they do. The list goes on. The standard cars give FM3 cars in-game, good levels of competition. In FM3 the cars in game have their windows close to being blacked out like the standard GT5 cars but also have the levels of detail reduced quite a lot. Most of the standard complaints come from 1 or 2% of the standard cars being below standard. Technically the car models in FM3 Vs the standards there is no competition and it will take maybe PD about 5+ years to think about catching T10 up in car number count and overall detail judging by what Forza 4 has. That is no surprise really as there is maybe more car modellers working on FM than PD have in total for the whole game. I can't really see PD catching up in the next decade as really, they have to work on other platforms like PS Vita and may also work on other games like Tourist Trophy. They have to really outsource to have a chance in doing this.

I think there's a change in perception coming as to what makes 'simulation' tyre physics. Forza 3's oft stated 'too forgiving' tyres may actually turn out to be the more realistic model, just look at the opinions of the new iRacing tyre model (the sim considered by many as the be-all sim):

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262465

And the more things progress, the more I see GT5 will eventually be acknowledged as not quite as realistic as people think

GT5 physics is what may be considered too forgiving to iRacing people. I haven’t played it myself but I think Greger Huttu said when he got to drive the race cars in iRacing for real, that the real cars have more grip. It might be toning down of that too little grip aspect Forza 3 on the other hand has way too much grip and seriously is too forgiving is an understatement. That Enzo video shows someone going on to the grass, putting it into reverse then back up the gears while still managing to keep it pointing forward and at speed with throttle applied. I noticed this in the first couple of hours playing Forza 3 as I was wondering why I felt like Superman when it comes to driving in the game with no assists.

But who's to say what's realistic when it comes to a controller being used to control a vehicle. The only way you can tell what's "real" or not, "simplistic" or difficult is to actually drive a said vehicle in real life that was built with a stick. For all we know, and I'll pretty much guarantee, that if cars were being built with sticks as control methods the majority of them would handle similar to FM3. Like others have said, if you feel something's off, there's too much grip or whatever in FM3 then just tune it to where it's supposed to be in your mind and enjoy. Hell, even the custom online has the ability to change the amount of grip.

You can get a good idea from playing with a keyboard on rFactor how the physics feel, to GT5 with a pad. FM3 is meant to be a simulation, why do you have to mess up a car setup to feel it is similar but I can’t see how that can work as the physics feel fundamentally flawed.

Doesn't the behaviour depend heavily on the assists in use, though? I mean, turn on the Skid Recovery Force in GT5, and realisitc behaviour goes out of the window. I suspect FM3 does similar things with the right assists (keeping in mind that the steering assist appearently far more pronounced while playing with a pad than it would be while playing with a wheel, at least from what I've read. Never bothered to check for myself how intrusive it actually is).

It is not just cornering though, exits off corners you get a lot of grip generally. It is like a bit with Skid Recovery Force with GT5 but that is how Forza 3 plays with no assists. Good job Turn 10 realised they were wrong and looked to have fixed a lot of things with Forza 4.

Bogie 19th it is good to see you have realised how forgiving Forza 3 is. Like I said just above, Forza 4 seems to have addressed a lot of things.

100% correct.

Almost every road car made is set-up to initially understeer on the limit, and that includes RWD cars. The vast majority you have to push through to get them to oversteer.

My old 3 series did exactly that, get to a wet roundabout and initially you would have understeer, however keep the throttle going and it would transition to oversteer.

Its one of the things that GT4 actually got right, that road cars will initially understeer (and many quite heavily), it was the transition past that and into oversteer that didn't happen as it should in GT4 (that and the lack of throttle adjustment to correct understeer when you backed off the throttle).

It's the characteristic that almost every 'sim' made falls short on, realistic initial understeer on roadcars (and I've driven more that enough in my years in the industry to know).


Scaff

I know that production cars are made to understeer as it gives better driver confidence.
Understeer usually means a stable rear and so it is perceived as better handling to drivers.
My brother has a 3 Series and the way the car setup is not the only thing that helps it be stable in most conditions. These driving aids come as standard.

ABS / EBD
CBC - (Cornering brake control)
DSC-Dynamic Stability Control
Dynamic brake control
Dynamic Traction Control - DTC
MSR

In a driving simulation game when you play with no aids, you don’t expect these things to interfere. Cars become more lively without these in real life.

The problem with Forza 3 though is that it also very stable and shows more understeer than oversteer characteristics with fast old cars. I have tried a lot of cars in the game, old and new and they all have similar driving characteristics. The R class and maybe S Class is different though. Here is a video I posted earlier. I tried to force oversteer most of the way through the lap but it really is too stable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wpEWBsem5E

I think these people feel similar things with the physics as I do.
http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...omparison_3a_gti_and_m3_at_laguna_seca_page_2

 

[Da-Bomber]

You may want to take a second look at that video. He's STILL holding the wheel with only the index and thumb. You don't see it clearly because of the overexposed picture, but it's basically the same hand positioning than Forza 3.

Take another look and compare videos. The spot seems the same but the gripping animation and overall movement of the hands look a lot more natural compared to F3. Now all I need to see is if Forza can actually animate correct paddle shifting animations and not the stretching index finger like in 3.

 

[another_jakhole]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wpEWBsem5E

I think these people feel similar things with the physics as I do.
http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...omparison_3a_gti_and_m3_at_laguna_seca_page_2

hmm

👍

I really admire your work. Which means your post.

LOL, obviously you guys that think Forza is more realistic than GT5 would rather play a game that involves no driving skill and makes you think you can drive well. I have raced at sears point, laguna seca and numerous KART tracks in real life and GT5 is 100 times more realistic than forza. The physics in Forza are a joke, don't complain just because you cant handle the realistic physics of GT5. And complaining because in you cant put a vette motor in a Hyundai or whatever is just pathetic. Its a sim not mariokart. Try using your fake driving skills from Forza on a real road and you'll crash real quick.

I didn't say it. 5zylinderturbo did.

http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...omparison_3a_gti_and_m3_at_laguna_seca_page_2

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Haha, I know many drifters that would rather play FM than GT....
just because GT is "hard" doesn't make it realistic. Just because it is a 'simulator" dosent make it fun.

In all they're both just video games, nothing more, nothing less.
Some prefer Forza, some prefer GT.

I prefer brunettes, some prefer blondes, but you wont hear me complainin'

 

[Da-Bomber]

So this guy is saying driving in gt will not make you crash in real life? What is up with this elitist 🤬 that make people say such things.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

Haha, I know many drifters that would rather play FM than GT....
just because GT is "hard" doesn't make it realistic. Just because it is a 'simulator" dosent make it fun.

In all they're both just video games, nothing more, nothing less.
Some prefer Forza, some prefer GT.

I prefer brunettes, some prefer blondes, but you wont hear me complainin'

Indeed. Except when you complained about white wheels and lobster claws.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Indeed. Except when you complained about white wheels and lobster claws.

White wheels are essential man!
I drive with lobster claws in real life

 

[Spagetti69]

So who has been saying Forzas driving physics are better?

I don't actually recall anyone saying they was, I may be wrong on that one.

Collision physics are better, yes I did say that.

Also that article said that the power oversteer is easier to manage (less realistic). A point I agree with....but I thought you couldn't power oversteer in Forza.

Another thing the article said was Forzas Tires were equivalent to the sports range in GT.

I think the sports range (dependant on car type of course) are the most realistic.
VW GTI mk V.

 

[HBK]

Take another look and compare videos. The spot seems the same but the gripping animation and overall movement of the hands look a lot more natural compared to F3. Now all I need to see is if Forza can actually animate correct paddle shifting animations and not the stretching index finger like in 3.

The wheel movements are more dynamic, but the hand holding positions are the same. He still holds the wheel like it is some kind of poo. And it's also noticeable in replays.

I now doubt this will be fixed. It was fixed in the E3 2010 demo, and then it was reverted back. There must be a reason as to why they reverted back.

 

[Bogie 19th]

So who has been saying Forzas driving physics are better?

I don't actually recall anyone saying they was, I may be wrong on that one.

Collision physics are better, yes I did say that.

I am saying that overall, Forza 3's racing and collision physics are better. However, as pointed out in a previous video, Forza indeed is way to easy to recover at high speeds compared to GT, which GT gets a huge nod for.

 

[HBK]

Disclaimer : This whole post is all personal opinion.

Forza 3's "driving feeling" is good.

The physics are obviously lacking in the suspension department, as all cars (bar race cars) are too "stiff". Their suspension make them more stable than they should be. Otherwise, all basic driving dynamics are in place. The cars behave and drive in a believable way. Locking the brakes is a very bad thing. You have to be cautious when braking and re-accelerating. You even have to heel-and-toe on most RWD cars if you don't want to end in a wall when down-shifting.

But most of all, everything is understandable and seem logical, even if not completely realistic.

GT5's "driving feeling" is VERY good.

All cars will end up in a spin if not driven carefully. Road bumps will destabilize cars in a believable way. Braking and re-accelerating is twitchy. Yet all cars seem to brake in a similar way, with only the tire type determining the braking distance. And the cars sometimes spin-out completely unexpectedly, and while it will look very good in replay, you'll still have no understanding as to why the car decided to spin-out. And it's not just a matter of over-estimating the capabilities of the car. Many times you don't realize you lost control until you see the wrong end of the track on your screen. It may just be a lack of feedback, but how many times did I lost control for no understandable reason. Even basic under-steering feels weird.

So the thing is, even if everything look very realistic on the surface, when driven past the limit you just "don't get it" way too often.

--------

That sums up my feelings about the "physics" of both games. You'll notice I don't want to use the term "physics" actually, mainly because we rarely ever talk about the actual physics engine, we talk about what we perceive out of it, using a screen, speakers, and a steering wheel as an interface.

Of course, this is the end result that matters, and that is why, like many others, I praise the awesome feel you get while driving in GT5. But saying that GT5 has a more advanced physics engine based on its transcription is factually false. The overall interface feels more realistic, so we can assume that the physics engine behind it computes more realistic values. Yet, it doesn't mean the physics engine is actually more advanced.

 

[Spagetti69]

White wheels are essential man!
I drive with lobster claws in real life

Don't get crabby.

 

[Zer0]

Yet all cars seem to brake in a similar way, with only the tire type determining the braking distance. And the cars sometimes spin-out completely unexpectedly, and while it will look very good in replay, you'll still have no understanding as to why the car decided to spin-out. And it's not just a matter of over-estimating the capabilities of the car. Many times you don't realize you lost control until you see the wrong end of the track on your screen. It may just be a lack of feedback, but how many times did I lost control for no understandable reason. Even basic under-steering feels weird.

So the thing is, even if everything look very realistic on the surface, when driven past the limit you just "don't get it" way too often.

It's all about skills. If that was a defect nobody could drift in GT5 and nobody could drive a fast car without aids and comfort tires.

[youtubehd]Z8EUqLtOwKM[/youtubehd]

If you try to drive straight from FM3 to GT5 the result will be confusing like you described but is not the game problem. The point of no return and how hard can you push the car or be rough with the inputs with no consequences it's so different between the two games.

It will happen the same in real life. This vid shows the night and day differences in the same car and same driver.

 

[HBK]

Just to be clear, I'm not denying that driving cars in Forza 3 is "easier" (for the lack of a better word) than driving cars in GT5. And I'm not denying that driving cars is "too easy" in Forza 3 (in regards to reality), and that the overall "driving difficulty" just "feels about right" in GT5.

My main problem here is that I don't think GT5 is more "realistic" because driving is "harder", and this "level of difficulty" is comparable to the actual difficulty of real life driving.

But then again, this is only my personal opinion.

I've never driven on a race track, but having pushed my little car a number of times on public roads, I can safely say that it actually feels very different from driving a similar little car in GT5. It also feels very different from driving a similar car in Forza 3, for that matter. I would say that overall the real experience would be a mix of the "precision" and "feedback" of Forza 3 and the "bumpiness" and "exigency" of GT5.

Note : When I say "driving", one should understand "driving on the edge".