FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Vaxxtx]

Regarding the "there is nothing GT5 did that another game didnt do better" debate I'd state that you could make a similar arguement against Forza as well if you wanted to. I mean for me, I don't think any console game has trumped GT5 in the physics department yet, and personally since I'm all about the racing, that's an important feature.

The point of my statement "There is nothing GT5 has done that another game hasnt done much better" is that GT5 tried too much, and failed. They tried to implemet features, and instead of doing it, they half ass did it. I like full features or dont do them. Just my opinion.

It is all about opinion as far as physics. What are you comparing them to? Your real life experience in a Ferrari Enzo racing around Nurb, or the way a "game" feels? I wont know, since I probably wont be able to drive every car in a game in real life to compare. So when I compare physics, or anyone for that matter, I find it funny how they can say "Thats spot on in the physics department". Truth is, most are just comparing to other games, and its a total opinion.

I mean you could say "Well what does Forza do better than other games?" and think well gee, games such as Shift, DiRT and GRiD etc all have much better damage. Shift has way better audio. Track selection? Shift is king again, although GT5 also trumps Forza for sheer variety and the presence of a track creator. Graphics? GT5 is still at the top. Rewind system? Codemasters still wins there. Rivals mode? Autolog does the same thing but better.

I totally agree with everything bolded here.

I dont agree with GT5's graphics. Standard cars, tearing, shadows, etc aside even. A full grid of premiums on Nurburgring GP looks toooooo sterile and "fake". There is no grit. There is no racetrack looks, just newly paved roads with bright green grass. Race tracks dont look like that. Again my opinion.



You could go on and on. The point is though, is that you could use that arguement against any game if you really wanted to. For me? GT5 is currently king for physics, Forza is king for painting cars, Shift is king for emulating the actual feel/sensation of racing, F1 2010 does weather best and so on and so forth.

I see your point. But my view is different. Since I dont agree GT5 is king of physics, there is still nothing GT5 has done that another game hasnt done better.

Now just because F1 2010 does weather better than GT5, does that suddenly mean that GT5 having tracks with dynamic weather is somehow not good? Of course not, the implementation in GT5 is fantastic even if it isn't across every track in the game. Likewise Shift has night racing for every track, does that somehow nullify the fact that GT5 has it? No. I mean sure not every track in GT5 has night racing but they did a hell of a good job with it and it's actually dynamic too.

In a way it does for me. Go balls out or keep them in your pants. Shift doesnt have weather on some tracks and not others. So instead of doing it half assed, they did night/day options on every track. I dont have to think, can I play this one at night or not? Oh just these tracks can be played at night...oh ok. Its consistent in what it does. I dont need to have a list of regular cars that CAN be upgraded, race modded, or have the wheels be able to be changed out. I know in S2 I can do that to them. Again half assed the way GT5 implemented it.

I mean that's like pointing out how loads of games have livery editors so why give a hoot if Forza has one? It's totally missing the point and selling the games short at the end of the day.

I break it down like this:

Campaign - Shift, GRID, Dirt, Forza, FC, Race Pro, all have better campaigns than GT5.

Physics - Ferrari Challenge, and Race Pro both have awesome "simlike" physics over GT5.

Cars - Shift, Forza, has a better selection of cars for the simple fact they are all on par as far as models, and cars I actually want to drive. Better than GT5.

Tracks - Shift2 tracks are the best on a console. Again beating GT5.

NASCAR - The NASCAR games (even 2011) are better than GT5
s NASCAR.

Rally - Dirt series, better than GT5's attempt.

Customization - Forza is awesome at painting/livery. Shift2 is awesome at the tuning/upgrading. Again GT5's attempt at this car can, this car cant, you add aero's to this ,but not that, etc. is horrid.

Go carts- ...... Wow. GT5 did do it better. I am wrong. GT5 did do something better than another game...that I know of. So I give GT5 a winner here!
I'll also point out that I'm talking about console games here. Games such as iRacing are obviously in a whole different league, so for comparison I always keep console games and PC sims in different groups. I mean you wouldn't compare a Nissan Micra to a Ferrari Enzo would you?

My comment in red. Again I agree with you on some of your points, and totally see where you are coming from, I just dont see it the same way.

What if GT5 cut the extra fluff? What if they made 300 premiums, no NASCAR, skipped B-Spec, tossed out rally, and made a racing game with all cars being customizable, cockpit'ed, and made a better A Spec campaign?

 

[ZSPaulus]

What if GT5 cut the extra fluff? What if they made 300 premiums, no NASCAR, skipped B-Spec, tossed out rally, and made a racing game with all cars being customizable, cockpit'ed, and made a better A Spec campaign?

Update all the framedrops and screentears to be gone. Then add some more tracks and its a great game right there.. A bit simple in features; but i would enjoy it more then i do GT5 at the moment..

 

[Tapey]

My comment in red. Again I agree with you on some of your points, and totally see where you are coming from, I just dont see it the same way.

What if GT5 cut the extra fluff? What if they made 300 premiums, no NASCAR, skipped B-Spec, tossed out rally, and made a racing game with all cars being customizable, cockpit'ed, and made a better A Spec campaign?

I'm pretty sure removing standard cars wouldn't have made the premium car count go up at the end of the day. I think the options were 200 premium cars or 200 premium cars and 800 standard cars as well. PD has a small amount of staff and it took them a long time to model each premium car, whereas importing from GT4 was likely a very fast process comparatively.

As for cutting the other stuff, unfortunately game development doesn't work that way to be honest. Cutting features doesn't suddenly increase the amount of modelers and 3D artists on the team, the people not working on those features would be reassigned to other features if you get me?

Finally in regards to features not being totally fleshed out well what about Forza 4? The Autovista mode only supports 25 cars, by your logic it's pointless and they should remove it from the game? Likewise what about the varying times of day in Forza 4? I'm fairly sure Dan Greenawalt said that not every track in the game would have varying lighting conditions. Does that remind you of something? Ah yes, GT5. So should Turn 10 remove the feature completely and have all tracks the same as they were in Forza 3? Should they just completely remove the two main new features of Forza 4 because they're half-assed?

 

[barryl85]

I'm pretty sure removing standard cars wouldn't have made the premium car count go up at the end of the day. I think the options were 200 premium cars or 200 premium cars and 800 standard cars as well. PD has a small amount of staff and it took them a long time to model each premium car, whereas importing from GT4 was likely a very fast process comparatively.

Aww come on, small amount of staff to blame? wow. How do you know how many staff members PD has?

How many cars did PD model for GT5 Prolougue? Didnt take them long on that !

As for cutting the other stuff, unfortunately game development doesn't work that way to be honest. Cutting features doesn't suddenly increase the amount of modelers and 3D artists on the team, the people not working on those features would be reassigned to other features if you get me?

Again how do you know the staffing levels at PD in comparison to other developers to make such a judgement?

Finally in regards to features not being totally fleshed out well what about Forza 4? The Autovista mode only supports 25 cars, by your logic it's pointless and they should remove it from the game? Likewise what about the varying times of day in Forza 4? I'm fairly sure Dan Greenawalt said that not every track in the game would have varying lighting conditions. Does that remind you of something? Ah yes, GT5. So should Turn 10 remove the feature completely and have all tracks the same as they were in Forza 3? Should they just completely remove the two main new features of Forza 4 because they're half-assed?

This is where you are wrong.

Autovista doesn't affect other areas of play, if you dont want to use autovista it does not affect the rest of your gaming experience or career or garage in Forza.

You cannot escape the standard cars in GT5 and they are horrible.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I'm pretty sure removing standard cars wouldn't have made the premium car count go up at the end of the day. I think the options were 200 premium cars or 200 premium cars and 800 standard cars as well. PD has a small amount of staff and it took them a long time to model each premium car, whereas importing from GT4 was likely a very fast process comparatively.

As for cutting the other stuff, unfortunately game development doesn't work that way to be honest. Cutting features doesn't suddenly increase the amount of modelers and 3D artists on the team, the people not working on those features would be reassigned to other features if you get me?

Finally in regards to features not being totally fleshed out well what about Forza 4? The Autovista mode only supports 25 cars, by your logic it's pointless and they should remove it from the game? Likewise what about the varying times of day in Forza 4? I'm fairly sure Dan Greenawalt said that not every track in the game would have varying lighting conditions. Does that remind you of something? Ah yes, GT5. So should Turn 10 remove the feature completely and have all tracks the same as they were in Forza 3? Should they just completely remove the two main new features of Forza 4 because they're half-assed?

I could care less for Autovista. If it was gone I wouldnt miss it one bit to be honest. It doesnt have any impact on the game though. Its seperate. I probably wont even use it more than once.

Varying lighting and night/day is pretty different. Shift2 has varying lighting, and even overcast weather.

 

[Luminis]

Again with PD's small amount of employees. Why is that even an excuse? They've had a huge budget. GT5 is one of the most expensive games ever. If PD have to few employees, it's entirely their fault for not hiring more employees instead of blowing the budget on whatever. This isn't a case of David vs. Goliath, with PD being David. It's just a prime example of horrible resource management.

 

[Tapey]

Aww come on, small amount of staff to blame? wow. How do you know how many staff members PD has?

How many cars did PD model for GT5 Prolougue? Didnt take them long on that !

Again how do you know the staffing levels at PD in comparison to other developers to make such a judgement?

It's pretty easy to find out how many members of staff PD has, they only had roughly 130 people working on GT5. Comparatively Turn 10 had about 300 people working on Forza 3, and they also outsourced car/track modeling to workers in Asian countries (I think roughly 60 or so?). So Turn 10 have nearly triple as many people working on the Forza series.

I think you're being awfully quick to mindlessly defend Forza when it's just a simple discussion comparing games and features. I mean really, it's common sense that a team with a very small amount of staff working on actually modeling cars can't get a large amount of them done isn't it? Check the GT5 credits next time, it shows how many people worked on that aspect of the game. Then go check up how many people Turn 10 had working on car models for FM3, there's a very big difference.

This is where you are wrong.

Autovista doesn't affect other areas of play, if you dont want to use autovista it does not affect the rest of your gaming experience or career or garage in Forza.

You cannot escape the standard cars in GT5 and they are horrible.

Where was I wrong? Autovista only having roughly 25 cars is fact, and if Dan Greenawalt was telling the truth in the video interview I saw, varying times of day not being available for all courses in Forza 4 is also a fact. I'm sorry about that I guess?

The whole point is that you can't condemn one game for half-assed features and then praise another game with half-assed features without coming across as a blind fanboy. You can make all the excuses you like but at the end of the day much like GT5, Forza 4 also has features that are half-assed and coincidentally, are also their two main new supposedly big features for this entry in the franchise.

Now personally I can enjoy GT5 with half-assed features, and I will no doubt enjoy Forza 4 with half-assed features too. Unfortunately though it seems that some people are being very hypocritical in their dislike for GT5 without realizing that Forza 4 falls prey to the exact same problems.

 

[Luminis]

I mean really, it's common sense that a team with a very small amount of staff working on actually modeling cars can't get a large amount of them done isn't it?

It's also common sense to hire more people if your team can't get the job done and you're sitting on heaps of cash, isn't it?

You can make all the excuses you like but at the end of the day much like GT5, Forza 4 also has features that are half-assed and coincidentally, are also their two main new supposedly big features for this entry in the franchise.

It's not just that GT5 and Forza 4 come with half-assed features. GT5 comes with almost nothing but half-assed features. You know, there's a difference between having two half-assed ones and ten that are done right and having 15 and all of them being half-assed.

 

[Vaxxtx]

It's pretty easy to find out how many members of staff PD has, they only had roughly 130 people working on GT5. Comparatively Turn 10 had about 300 people working on Forza 3, and they also outsourced car/track modeling to workers in Asian countries (I think roughly 60 or so?). So Turn 10 have nearly triple as many people working on the Forza series.

I think you're being awfully quick to mindlessly defend Forza when it's just a simple discussion comparing games and features. I mean really, it's common sense that a team with a very small amount of staff working on actually modeling cars can't get a large amount of them done isn't it? Check the GT5 credits next time, it shows how many people worked on that aspect of the game. Then go check up how many people Turn 10 had working on car models for FM3, there's a very big difference.



Where was I wrong? Autovista only having roughly 25 cars is fact, and if Dan Greenawalt was telling the truth in the video interview I saw, varying times of day not being available for all courses in Forza 4 is also a fact. I'm sorry about that I guess?

The whole point is that you can't condemn one game for half-assed features and then praise another game with half-assed features without coming across as a blind fanboy. You can make all the excuses you like but at the end of the day much like GT5, Forza 4 also has features that are half-assed and coincidentally, are also their two main new supposedly big features for this entry in the franchise.

Now personally I can enjoy GT5 with half-assed features, and I will no doubt enjoy Forza 4 with half-assed features too. Unfortunately though it seems that some people are being very hypocritical in their dislike for GT5 without realizing that Forza 4 falls prey to the exact same problems.

Hire more people. Pretty easy with that budget.

I am not a blind fanboy of Forza. In fact, you can even say I prefer Shift2 over anything else. I just cant fathom how and why people defend GT5. I tried it, I really did. It just felt unfinished and boring as hell. At least I can say I have spent time playing them all, and not just speak about a game I dont play, like it seems many people do.

I will state again that I totally see where you are coming from, and your points are good, but I just dont agree.

 

[Northstar]

I think the number thing is a horrible argument as you can have 1,000 people working on a game and it can still suck. On the other hand 9 people can make one of the most popular indie games in history with Minecraft. It's not about the numbers specifically but what kinds of people make up that number that really matters.

I also think it's insane to call Autovista a half finished feature as the game is not out so it's hard to tell. Sure it only has 25 cars, but I'm still under the impression it's inclusion in FM4 is to get feedback on whether they should expand it in FM5 or scrap it altogether.

 

[cuco33]

PD handling all the side projects they were on, while developing GT5 without outsourcing nor expanding the team is PD's fault and PD's fault alone. Especially after hearing they had 60mil in development funds. You only need to look at all the projects announced throughout GT5's development as well as mentioned on their own website. Things like HUD displays, prototype designs, aero kit designs, 4K tech demos, manufacturer specific promo materials like videos and actual demos (i.e. MB's demo), etc. Toss in Kaz racing at Nurb24 and Sony's push for 3D to be included, the issue was on resource management and management in general. PD became PD by making video games. I know they like working within the automotive industry but their core business was affected by the side projects. It's why I don't mind that T10 has a bigger team and outsourced work.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I think the number thing is a horrible argument as you can have 1,000 people working on a game and it can still suck. On the other hand 9 people can make one of the most popular indie games in history with Minecraft. It's not about the numbers specifically but what kinds of people make up that number that really matters.

I also think it's insane to call Autovista a half finished feature as the game is not out so it's hard to tell. Sure it only has 25 cars, but I'm still under the impression it's inclusion in FM4 is to get feedback on whether they should expand it in FM5 or scrap it altogether.

Or...Well, GT5 only has 1000 cars...that must be have finished because there are hundreds of thousands of cars out there. Or Forza only must be half finished because you can only do 4000 layers instead of 8000 in the livery editor. Or GT5 only has 20 track locations when there are hundreds of track locations out there.

When does it stop. 25 isn't good enough for Autovista, 25,000 wouldn't be good enough for some. It's a never ending circle.

 

[Jamezinho]

Forza 4 does not sound half-arsed to me. Turn 10 came out and said why they are not including some features such as weather and night racing amongst other things. They want to avoid a half-arsed, jack of all trades master of none experience like GT5.

They are developing Forza 4 within the limits of the console to deliver a smooth, solid, consistent experience running at 60fps and I respect that. They are concentrating on the on-tarmac racing and not spreading their resources too thinly.

 

[Astro-Racer]

Unless they announce some more new tracks, this is just Forza 3.2 to me

Massive disapointment so far.

 

[Jamezinho]

Unless they announce some more new tracks, this is just Forza 3.2 to me

Massive disapointment so far.

Five new tracks plus one or two likely to follow as DLC. A fantastic car line-up (all 'premium'). Upgraded driving physics and tyre models. More intelligent AI. Online upped to 16 players. Plus loads of other improvements.

What's not to like?

 

[PzR Slim]

Five new tracks plus one or two likely to follow as DLC. A fantastic car line-up (all 'premium'). Upgraded driving physics and tyre models. More intelligent AI. Online upped to 16 players. Plus loads of other improvements.

What's not to like?

It all depends on your mindset, and looking at astro racers posting history that mindset is fairly evident

 

[Astro-Racer]

Upgraded driving physics and tyre models.

I'll reserve judgement on those points until I try it. I've been told that it still feels a bit floaty by a few people who's opinion I value, when it comes to these things.

As for the car line up. Not much new when you already have F3 UE :/ (Actually less)

 

[Bogie 19th]

Going by people that have played Forza 4, including sim sites, they have stated the float is gone. Nice.

 

[cuco33]

Unless they announce some more new tracks, this is just Forza 3.2 to me

Massive disapointment so far.

Here we go again.... lol

Forza 3 was Forza 2.5, and Forza 2 was Forza 1.5... now, without acknowledging all the additions and improvements and without even having the game in our hands we still hear folks saying Forza 4 is Forza 3.X. So what do you think GT5 was? GT5 or GT4.X?

 

[Terronium-12]

Unless they announce some more new tracks, this is just Forza 3.2 to me

Massive disapointment so far.

Then don't buy it.

 

[Astro-Racer]

I guess opinions are not welcome unless you give nothing but praise.

Fair enough. I'll leave you guys to it :/

 

[cuco33]

I guess opinions are not welcome unless you give nothing but praise.

Fair enough. I'll leave you guys to it :/

Honest question, What do you think GT5 is? GT5 or GT4.X?
Opinions are fully welcome, but not when you selectively neglect all the new additions and tweaks to the franchise. Your comment wasn't the 1st time I've read someone say on here and it's baiting more than anything.

 

[Terronium-12]

Wanting more tracks is fine. Referring to it as "Forza 3.2" because it doesn't have as many new tracks as you want is stupid.

Furthermore, what's been a disappointment? How can something you've never played be a disappointment?

 

[Astro-Racer]

Honest question, What do you think GT5 is? GT5 or GT4.X?

Well, it was a whole console generation apart. So considering it added big features such as:

New graphics engine
New physics engine
Weather Effects
Night Racing
Track Creation
Online
Considerable amount of new cars
Diverse range of new tracks (City, Dirt, Snow)
And more

I'd say it's fine to call it a proper sequel.

However, with GT6 probably being a PS3 game. I imagine that it will most likely fall into the "Upgrade-style" sequel, like FM4 looks (More small changes rather than big upgrades).

 

[Terronium-12]

As I said, stupid.

 

[Luminis]

New graphics engine
New physics engine
Weather Effects Auto Vista
Night Racing Car Clubs
Track Creation Rivals Mode
More Online
Considerable amount of new cars
Diverse range of new tracks (City, Dirt, Snow)
And more

There, that's the lisr for Forza. Seems pretty much like it does as much as GT5 to turn it into a proper sequel. Thing is, it didn't have to catch up as much. If that's the prerequisite to be a proper sequel, I sure hope Forza never gets to that point.

 

[Astro-Racer]

So going by your edit you think these are equal features? :/

Weather Effects - Auto Vista (26 cars)

Night Racing - Car Clubs

Track Creation - Rivals Mode

I guess each to their own.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Well, it was a whole console generation apart. So considering it added big features such as:

New graphics engine With screentear included!
New physics engine
Weather Effects -Some tracks
Night Racing - Some tracks
Track Creation - VERY limted
Online - With different physics than offline
Considerable amount of new cars - Most old models (or standards) ported over.
Diverse range of new tracks (City, Dirt, Snow) Not many real world ones, and rally ones are a joke.
And more Oh? Like damage?

I'd say it's fine to call it a proper sequel. 5 years later it should have been a bit more "proper".

However, with GT6 probably being a PS3 game. I imagine that it will most likely fall into the "Upgrade-style" sequel, like FM4 looks (More small changes rather than big upgrades).

Not sure how probable GT6 will even out be out before the PS4.

 

[Luminis]

So going by your edit you think these are equal features? :/

Weather Effects - Auto Vista (26 cars)

Night Racing - Car Clubs

Track Creation - Rivals Mode

I guess each to their own.

I personally couldn't care less for Autovista, but as far as Car Clubs and Rivals Mode is concerned, I'd gladly take these over weather and night racing any day of the week, as they'll add far more ways for me to enjoy the game then weather and a changable time of day on a fistful of tracks ever could.

But, I could of course mention the increased options for customization, drag racing slicks, improved damage model, improved AI that auto-upgrades, World Tour Mode, Simulation Steering, different times of day to race at, Top Gear integration, Kinect integration... I actually thought you'd get the idea. Guess I was wrong, then.

 

[ItsHim]

Again with PD's small amount of employees. Why is that even an excuse? They've had a huge budget. GT5 is one of the most expensive games ever. If PD have to few employees, it's entirely their fault for not hiring more employees instead of blowing the budget on whatever. This isn't a case of David vs. Goliath, with PD being David. It's just a prime example of horrible resource management.

I'd really wish people, including yourself, would stop making such far fetched and outrageous statements concerning the resource management of PD for the simple fact they lack any substance whatsoever.

The management of PD made some decisions concerning the scope, the depth and the width of the current GT game.

They succeeded in many areas and fell short in others. However a project is always a moving target so miscalculations and not achieving set goals is always part of the equation.

Having been trained in management and having worked as a property developer I know first hand you can only throw so much money or staff at a project until you reach the point where you spend more energy managing people than the project itself.

You set priorities, you allocate ressources, you define goals. Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you have to try to limit the damage because your goals were not SMART enough as in specific, measurable, achievable, realistic or (fit in the) timeframe

That's the RISC of ambitious projects.

GT5 was extremely ambitious and PD chose not to sacrifice 60fps for all the stuff they put in GT5. Hi stakes it was, but they pull off a bloody good show in the end and are still making improvements in some areas as visual damage, game play and balancing.

Now if you personally can't acknowledge the results and underlying effort, and in fact have stopped playing the game altogether and not experienced the refined gameplay and content that has been added over the past couple of weeks and months, then that's one thing.

But you're absolutely talking through your hat if you continue to claim there has been mismanagement at any level because your obviously lacking any experience in this field and furthermore can't possibly know (nor correctly guess) the amount of development time and resources spent on things such as game engine, graphics, content, technical overhead, business decisions, licensing or marketing issues.

So either keep your opinions as what they are and dont try to sell speculations as facts by endlessly repeating them or deliver some kind of substance to go with your claims.