FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[HBK]

Turn 10 also had to sacrifice by having 16 cars on the road, in that new high detail with the new lighting...AND...still do the same thing with 16 cars on the road with up to 4000 layers of liveries on EACH car.

Actually, there is never 4000 (or was it 5000 ?) layers displayed on the car other than when using the livery editor. All those layers are converted into a single texture when exiting the livery editor (I'm not even sure the livery editor actually displays the whatever-thousand layers at the same time without rendering them into some form of texture).

 

[cuco33]

When I play GT5 - if I look at the grass when i'm driving its just tear after tear after tear and yes I have the latest updates and I mostly race on the nurb or suzuka.

On my main screen I'd have to check it out again as it's a 1080p and I'd be running the PS3/GT5 at max settings. On my office screen, it's not full 1080p and doesn't run full specked out. Maybe it's why I'm not seeing as much of an issue since I prefer racing with a wheel (which is in the office). Don't have a wheel stand but last I played I didn't notice it too much. It certainly is there but I haven't noticed it all too much. Certainly not on par with Forza 3 as that runs a lot more consistent, but then again GT5 has more cars on track and under the hardest conditions for the hardware looks better. Both are so close to each other it's a toss up on what one does and what the other doesn't while knowing what issues one has while the other doesn't.

 

[t.o.]

For example the snow tracks. Are mile better graphically than GT4 and FM have not a single snow track or effect but you use the less brilliant moments of that feature in GT5 to give more credit to FM. Absurd in all senses.
.

Not absurd at all. It's like FM might be serving strip steaks with great sides, large beers and great service and their strip steaks are tasty and consistent every time you order them. Then GT5 serves you filet mignon only problem is one day you may get it on a nice plate and the next day they're serving it to you over done and on a garbage can lid. Don't care how great a cut of meat is if you're serving it to me burnt and on a garbage can lid it's garbage.

One thing about the graphics differences is that PS 3 can handle dynamic lighting and shadows very well(almost every PS3 exclusive game has it), while Xbox games don't have this ( Forza, Gears, Halo, you name it, only AW and only at 540p), at the same time Xbox has better textures and Halo and Forza are a great example.

Where are these "well done" shadows in GT5? I know where they are in FM3, all over the place.

 

[Zer0]

Not absurd at all. It's like FM might be serving strip steaks with great sides, large beers and great service and their strip steaks are tasty and consistent every time you order them. Then GT5 serves you filet mignon only problem is one day you may get it on a nice plate and the next day they're serving it to you over done and on a garbage can lid. Don't care how great a cut of meat is if you're serving it to me burnt and on a garbage can lid it's garbage.


Where are these "well done" shadows in GT5? I know where they are in FM3, all over the place.

I can also over exagerate and see Forza as a burguer fast food restaurant, not exciting but consistent menus and GT5 like an experimental high cuisine with some plates better than others but all of them made with an espirit to innonvate and serve something elaborate and new.

About the shadows that's like praising 2D sprites detail because they don't show polygon edges like do 3D models.

 

[Spagetti69]

I think your all mad.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I can also over exagerate and see Forza as a burguer fast food restaurant, not exciting but consistent menus and GT5 like an experimental high cuisine with some plates better than others but all of them made with an espirit to innonvate and serve something elaborate and new.
About the shadows that's like praising 2D sprites detail because they don't show polygon edges like do 3D models.

Please dont try to describe FM3 as "not exciting". GT5 is about as non-exciting as it gets. B-Spec? VW Van races? Come now...

Elaborate and new? Besides pretty car models (on less than 1/2 of all of them), what else is new?

 

[Zer0]

Please dont try to describe FM3 as "not exciting". GT5 is about as non-exciting as it gets. B-Spec? VW Van races? Come now...

Elaborate and new? Besides pretty car models (on less than 1/2 of all of them), what else is new?

I mean not exciting in the sense of expecting innovations, not about playing the game. Sure the game is a lot of fun.

If you don't know GT5 here is a descripction of some of the new features:
http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt5/

 

[Northstar]

Of those features only 4 are new.

GTTV, Museum, 3D and Remote Race are new, everything else has been done before in various games.

Not even going to get into the quality of said features.

 

[Minty]

GT5 like an experimental high cuisine with some plates better than others but all of them made with an espirit to innonvate and serve something elaborate and new.

Then their cooking appliances must be broken because all of those elaborate innovations are half baked.


I deeply, humbly apologize for that.



But really, I'd rather have more polish on old features than half-finished "innovations". Ok, maybe "half-finished" is a bit harsh, but I'd rather have a whole lot of consistency, then a whole lot of poorly implemented new features.

 

[t.o.]

I can also over exagerate and see Forza as a burguer fast food restaurant, not exciting but consistent menus and GT5 like an experimental high cuisine with some plates better than others but all of them made with an espirit to innonvate and serve something elaborate and new.

About the shadows that's like praising 2D sprites detail because they don't show polygon edges like do 3D models.

Sure you can, but your example would be wrong. "Some plates better than others" would imply that the worse plates at this "experimental high cuisine" restaurant is still better than Forza's fast food and that would be DEAD WRONG.

Speaking of exaggeration nothing, not-a-thing about GT5's shadows come close to any kinda merit whatsoever. I could care less if they were using super duper 4th dimension technology the shadows still came out like crap.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

The reasons are that in a sim is not very useful to look around a car during gameplay. Same with an arcade like exterior view a la Ridge Racer. That dynamic views should have extra aids to make the game playable. A fixed view is more suitable for a non assisted control in a sim.

Sorry, but what?
How is it possible that not being allowed to rotate the camera around the car in the external view is better than being able to do so? I struggle to think of another sim that has an external view that doesn't allow the camera to rotate around the car. There's no reason not to allow it. It isn't like the camera is flying around wildly while you're driving, it sits behind the car just like it does in GT5. Only difference is that usually the right thumbstick allows the user to pan the camera in a circle around the car. How would this feature be "less suitable" for a sim?

 

[Luminis]

On the subject on innovation:

Innovation is a good thing if the innovations are helping the game along.

Innovation is a bad thing if the innovations are implented for the sake of being innovativ.

I don't care how innovative the paint chip system or the museum cards are, for example - as the uninnovativ way of doing that stuff (colour palette, information on the car in the dealership) worked a lot better for me.

 

[JDMKING13]

Speaking of exaggeration nothing, not-a-thing about GT5's shadows come close to any kinda merit whatsoever. I could care less if they were using super duper 4th dimension technology the shadows still came out like crap.

Actually the showdows have improved but still need some work, the best displays of showdows are on the Ring when the sun is going down. It's Just beautiful when the interior lights come on it's amzing experience. Speaking of interior lights are we gonna get any in FM4? I remember racing on Sedona and wishing my interior lights would come on. It had that setting where its still day light outside however your lights should be on.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Actually, there is never 4000 (or was it 5000 ?) layers displayed on the car other than when using the livery editor. All those layers are converted into a single texture when exiting the livery editor (I'm not even sure the livery editor actually displays the whatever-thousand layers at the same time without rendering them into some form of texture).

That is different than what Turn 10 has stated. In fact, they had released a patch due to multiple livery layers shifting during races. I remember this one time, the cow I created on the side of my car (made the spotted cow logo from Spotted Cow beer), and the eyes and hooves shifted from the rest of the image during and after the race. Looked funny as hell.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Of those features only 4 are new.

GTTV, Museum, 3D and Remote Race are new, everything else has been done before in various games.

Not even going to get into the quality of said features.

Correct. But also a Museum style feature has been done before in other games. Not having to collect cards though...thank goodness.

To be honest, the extra fluff is worthless. Paint chip collecting, racing suits, car washes, oil changes, etc. etc. doesnt add to the main reason I purchased a car game...to race, play with car setups, and personalize cars.

FM4 will be guilty of this as well with Autovista, and Kinnect. I couldnt care less about AV. If I want info on a car I got the internet. Kinnect I am looking forward to for the head tracking (one thing I loved about flight sims), but nothing else in that area.

Fluff is fluff.

 

[t.o.]

Actually the showdows have improved but still need some work, the best displays of showdows are on the Ring when the sun is going down. It's Just beautiful when the interior lights come on it's amzing experience. Speaking of interior lights are we gonna get any in FM4? I remember racing on Sedona and wishing my interior lights would come on. It had that setting where its still day light outside however your lights should be on.

I would assume they'll have it emulate real life for each car. Just the other day I took one of the Nissan Z cars around Sebring (forgot which 300 model it was) and the interior lights , if you're talking about dash, were all on from what I saw. Temperature was even on (77 degrees) but then I think of my own personal car, Impala, that I just got out of a few hours ago and nothing was on but the LCD in the middle. Then I might have it turned down so low you can't tell. But I'm pretty sure it's off.

 

[Zer0]

Of those features only 4 are new.

GTTV, Museum, 3D and Remote Race are new, everything else has been done before in various games.

Not even going to get into the quality of said features.

That's like saying that any plate with fish has been done before. Innovation is not always about the ingredients but the realization.

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Sure you can, but your example would be wrong. "Some plates better than others" would imply that the worse plates at this "experimental high cuisine" restaurant is still better than Forza's fast food and that would be DEAD WRONG.

Speaking of exaggeration nothing, not-a-thing about GT5's shadows come close to any kinda merit whatsoever. I could care less if they were using super duper 4th dimension technology the shadows still came out like crap.

Sure but I don't know anyone that will want to go a restaurant searching for their worst plates rather than their best ones. Normal people just tend to ignore what they don't like and enjoy what they like, the menu it's immense!

And another time you are over exagerating the cons. Shadows are fine except in some extreme day time situations in cockpit view or in some replays(a LOD problem) but in others like overcast, rain, no direct sun or night racing are not a problem. Also in tracks like Tsukuba the shadows have no problems.

Like it or not that type of shadows are necessary for real time day changes, there is no option. Games like FM don't need that because the track shadows stay always in the same position(pre backed).

[youtubehd]KczhmNQt1HA&hd=1[/youtubehd]

How would this feature be "less suitable" for a sim?

I know how it works. Is that a gameplay feature that you need so desperately or a graphic gimmick? sincerely I don't know why someone would want that functionality available in a sim, there is a free camera in replays only for that purpose.

 

[JDMKING13]

I would assume they'll have it emulate real life for each car. Just the other day I took one of the Nissan Z cars around Sebring (forgot which 300 model it was) and the interior lights , if you're talking about dash, were all on from what I saw. Temperature was even on (77 degrees) but then I think of my own personal car, Impala, that I just got out of a few hours ago and nothing was on but the LCD in the middle. Then I might have it turned down so low you can't tell. But I'm pretty sure it's off.

Maybe it was the 350Z, but I'm talking about the gauges center console everything. I really love seeing the cockpits at night in GT5, TO do you think we will get any headlight/taillight on in FM4, I know its know night racing is out but I hear we could swith the time of day"

 

[t.o.]

Maybe it was the 350Z, but I'm talking about the gauges center console everything. I really love seeing the cockpits at night in GT5, TO do you think we will get any headlight/taillight on in FM4, I know its know night racing is out but I hear we could swith the time of day"

I'm pretty sure it can be done (as long as they kill any object illumination properties of the lights) but for some reason I don't think we'll see anything but the regular brakelights. Could be wrong and I am hoping so. It would be a missed opportunity for sure if you ask me.

If you're talking about like the Nav center and stuff like that on the dash then I doubt it.



@zero It's clear you like GT5 and there's nothing wrong with that. It's also clear that after playing Forza you pretty much don't care for it either and that's your opinion and I respect a good, educated, tested opinion. It's just with the months that I played GT5 (from a week before it was actually released retail till about I guess 5 months or so later) I just found it lacking next to FM3 in almost every way. Granted the CONCEPT of night racing and weather etc. is nice in GT5 the implementation of everything as a whole made it a game that I just couldn't be bothered with.

 

[Northstar]

That's like saying that any plate with fish has been done before. Innovation is not always about the ingredients but the realization.
.

You said.

If you don't know GT5 here is a descripction of some of the new features:
http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt5/

If you give me a plate of Fish & Chips with your own recipe breading it doesn't make it a completely new dish, just your take on one that's been done before.

I also see little innovation with any of the GT5 features which is a shame as it's like you can see how great things like GTTV and the track creator would have been with a little more effort put into those features.

 

[t.o.]

You said.



If you give me a plate of Fish & Chips with your own recipe breading it doesn't make it a completely new dish, just your take on one that's been done before.

I also see little innovation with any of the GT5 features which is a shame as it's like you can see how great things like GTTV and the track creator would have been with a little more effort put into those features.

It's like GT stands for "Good Try". They made some Good Tries at different things but not quite putting the effort in to making them "good".

When they come out with Good Try 6 I hope it's at least "Game Tying 6" with whatever Forza will be out then in terms of the complete experience.

 

[Zer0]

You said.



If you give me a plate of Fish & Chips with your own recipe breading it doesn't make it a completely new dish, just your take on one that's been done before.

I also see little innovation with any of the GT5 features which is a shame as it's like you can see how great things like GTTV and the track creator would have been with a little more effort put into those features.

I was talking about new features in the series, the context was Forza and GT. Later you expanded the context with the: "everything else has been done before in various games" and replied following your new pattern.

Like it more or less the features are new in GT and most of them never have been realized before except segmented in a lot of packages and with not the same quality or options.

I would decide the value of innovation comparing the jump and fidelity beetween the previous contender. I remember that Chase HQ in the eighties had time changes and would be hilarious giving the credit to that game rather than GT5 today(was an example I'm sure that a lot of older games tried something similar before).

 

[Northstar]

Le Mans 24 Hours and GRID both feature time changes.

Le Mans also featured in race saves and multi class fields, both of which are lacking from most modern games..

 

[Spagetti69]

Grand theft auto has day/night transitions and rain.

Just saying.

Edit. Bonkers.

 

[Hotspitta]

While on the subject of 'views' can I just say the chasecam in GT5 is borderline pathetic - glued to the back of the car, I find every other view fine except this abomination.

You cant look round the car either - for a game boasting about its graphics having a look around the car in chase view would be great while racing.

Even with the most extreme handbrake turn you cant see the alloys you carefully picked*cough premium only* for the car, you know sometimes its good just to go on a little drive no seriousness and enjoy little things like that and you cant.


Edit: Just thinking about it - this was easily done to make sure you didnt look around a standard car as you would instantly restart your console thinking something was up with the octagon wheel arches.

Exactly spot on, the chase cam killed it for me too. Just terrible.The first time i played it i pressed pause too check if i could at least make it a bit less rigid, but noooooooo Kaz wanted me too spin out on every turn cause i couldn't see anything but my screen being shifted too left and right.

The lighting and premiums in gt5 can look very good though. My second biggest gripe with gt5 was that i wasn't able too see all the cars in game when i wanted it. I had too wait months some for cars too finally arrive, the fgt being one of them. And you know what type of turd that was too drive. The standards where soo horrifying that they had too pull the ucd trick on us.

Third... The Ferrari 458....ugh...the startup sound in the stupidly designed "My garage" screen is good. But once you take that baby too the track...👎

 

[Vaxxtx]

I was talking about new features in the series, the context was Forza and GT. Later you expanded the context with the: "everything else has been done before in various games" and replied following your new pattern.

Like it more or less the features are new in GT and most of them never have been realized before except segmented in a lot of packages and with not the same quality or options.

I would decide the value of innovation comparing the jump and fidelity beetween the previous contender. I remember that Chase HQ in the eighties had time changes and would be hilarious giving the credit to that game rather than GT5 today(was an example I'm sure that a lot of older games tried something similar before).

Le Mans 24 Hours and GRID both feature time changes.

Le Mans also featured in race saves and multi class fields, both of which are lacking from most modern games..

Grand theft auto has day/night transitions and rain.

Just saying.

Edit. Bonkers.

Grid also let you wash your cars. Shift 2 has night races on ALL tracks (done better than GT5 imo).

I have said it before in this thread, anything GT5 has done, another game has done better as far as gameplay goes. Car models on premiums I still give GT5 credit for.

I hope Zer0, you dont feel like your getting ganged up on. You do seem outnumbered , but your view is interesting.

 

[Bogie 19th]

PGR4 Night and Weather >>> GT5 Night and Weather

 

[Spagetti69]

Zero I'm not ganging up on you fella.

I thought the discussions had gone full circle and back again.

 

[Hotspitta]

PGR4 Night and Weather >>> GT5 Night and Weather

Cosign.👍

 

[Daverytimes]

Le Mans 24 Hours and GRID both feature time changes.

Le Mans also featured in race saves and multi class fields, both of which are lacking from most modern games..

You are doing the exact same thing he accused you of doing. Bringing up Grid and Le man 24 Hours does not help your case, of-course the features in GT5 has been done by other games but no other game has it all in one package, If Grid has the best damage modelling it doesn't have weather, if Shift 2 has the best night racing it doesn't have weather or track creator (even if it is a striped out version). If you want to experience everything that GT5 has to offer here is the list of games you need to go buy: Rfactor (Number of cars {mainly because of the community}), Iracing (Physics), Mario Kart (Damage), PGR 4 (weather), Shift 2 (Night racing), Modnation Racers (Track creator) and some other things i most likely forgot. GT5 might not have perfected any of the above but am glad that these things are all in one package, this is the Forza part of the forum so it will come as no surprise if we don't come to an agreement but each person should respect the efforts put out by these developers.