Formula 1 2013 Santander British Grand Prix

[niky]

Anyone else think that we are seeing all these problems as a result manufactures want Michelin back as the teams can't seem to get to grips< pun intended> with these tyres yet lotus and force India and another team are looking good because they can work the tyres to there advantage.

That other team being Ferrari who suffered one of the four punctures on Sunday? Ferrari who were (before this) completely against changing the tires at all?

 

[TheBook]

Indeed - I can't say that it has been, but the inside line seems to be that the combination of higher-than-expected heat, low tyre pressures (the failures all seem to have occurred on cars running 15psi) and inner sidewall damage (note that all the failures exhibit preserved outer sidewalls) has caused the failures.

Out of curiousity, why do you think we didn't see a buch of left fronts doing down in the same way? Different pressures? The tire not striking the kerb at the same angle and causing the cut? Those are the only two possibilities I can think of.

 

[Famine]

If I were to guess - and I would be guessing - I'd say that it's a combination (again!) of lower camber, lower tyre temperatures, the nature of the corner meaning oversteer is more likely than understeer (so the rears have lateral movement over the ridge but the fronts don't) and thinner tyres.

But then Guttierez

 

[Dragonwhisky]

I don't think it really matters what caused it, except to prevent it happening again. The fact is the tires didn't just get punctures or driving them over the kerbs caused extraordinary stress on the sidewall/tread juncture or heat caused them to fail. They catastrophically and spectactularly, flew apart. And not just once or twice. At this point I expect the drivers and teams are counting on the tires failing and praying they don't. Like Steve Matchett said, these drivers and teams are either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid.

These cars do over 200MPH. This kind of thing should be so rare the teams should never have to think twice about a tire exploding off the rim.

 

[DQuaN]

Looks fairly well preserved to me.

Ah, so it's intact but has made its way to the inside of the rim?

 

[Famine]

I don't think it really matters what caused it, except to prevent it happening again.

That's exactly why it matters.

Hopefully they'll find the right causes to eliminate the issue, rather than blaming the wrong ones or doing nothing at all...

The fact is the tires didn't just get punctures or driving them over the kerbs caused extraordinary stress on the sidewall/tread juncture or heat caused them to fail. They catastrophically and spectactularly, flew apart. And not just once or twice.

That's just what happens when you spin a 30lb tyre that has a puncture up to 1,800rpm at forty degrees.

Ah, so it's intact but has made its way to the inside of the rim?

Yep. The tyre structure as a whole is completely compromised, so how it sits is just a matter of luck - but the outer sidewall itself is still present and largely intact, suggesting it's quite far from the point of failure.

 

[Samus]

I would still like to see footage of any driver going over that kerb far enough for the cut to happen. Gary Anderson showed tyre marks but that proves nothing, they could be from any other races beforehand. None seemed to be going that far over.

Ah, so it's intact but has made its way to the inside of the rim?

Well when the rest of the tyre is gone it will do won't it. Not really sure what you're getting at.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

This whole tyres ruining/improving F1 has got way out of hand now.

Pirelli need to take a serious look at the big picture here, whether yesterday's problems were their fault - with regards to the tyres' construction - or not, the bad publicity from the media, F1 fans and drivers has already or going to damage their image and reputation. Yes we know they were asked to make unpredictable tyres by the FIA but surely 5 tyre blowouts over the weekend has to raise questions about their construction. Yes there is other factors to the blowouts but that we will have to wait and see.

The FIA need to put their foot down on the teams that said no to the change in construction. Safe tyres need to be delivered to all teams so we can carry on the championship without fear that a tyre will go pop unexpectedly. I could only imagine the uproar if some teams still said no to change in the construction, we had another blowout and a driver was killed.

If they're wanting to keep F1 exciting they need to explore other areas as tyres just aren't working. Yes they are making the races more unpredictable but after yesterday its becoming too dangerous, we don't want another San Marino '94 but I think if they don't change things soon it may happen.

 

[DQuaN]

Well when the rest of the tyre is gone it will do won't it. Not really sure what you're getting at.

The fact that it looked like the inside of the tyre was intact, but it was actually the outside of the tyre which had moved to the inside of the rim.

 

[Samus]

This whole tyres ruining/improving F1 has got way out of hand now.

Pirelli need to take a serious look at the big picture here, whether yesterday's problems were their fault - with regards to the tyres' construction - or not, the bad publicity from the media, F1 fans and drivers is already/going to damage their image and reputation. Yes we know they were asked to make unpredictable tyres by the FIA but surely 5 tyre blowouts over the weekend has to raise questions about their construction. Yes there is other factors to the blowouts but that we will have to wait and see.

The FIA need to put their foot down on the teams that said no to the change in construction. Safe tyres need to be delivered to all teams so we can carry on the championship without fear that a tyre will go pop unexpectedly. I could only imagine the uproar if some teams still said no to change in the construction, we had another blowout and a driver was killed.

If they're wanting to keep F1 exciting they need to explore other areas as tyres just aren't working. Yes they are making the races more unpredictable but after yesterday its becoming too dangerous, we don't want another San Marino '94 but I think if they don't change things soon it may happen.

I still maintain my opinion that Pirelli will not sign a contract extension into next year, potentially leaving F1 in a tyre limbo.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

I still maintain my opinion that Pirelli will not sign a contract extension into next year, potentially leaving F1 in a tyre limbo.

I was thinking the same thing eariler this year. I think Pirelli know their reputation has been damaged too much to carry on in F1. Similar to Michelin after Indy '05.

But who would replace Pirelli if they left?

Bridgestone wouldn't come back, neither would Michelin. Doubt Goodyear will after so long (eventhough I'd love it if they did).

 

[Famine]

I would still like to see footage of any driver going over that kerb far enough for the cut to happen. Gary Anderson showed tyre marks but that proves nothing, they could be from any other races beforehand. None seemed to be going that far over.

I can't get it precisely, but this is that corner - and coincidentally, the last corner that rear-left on Hamilton's car took

The fronts don't seem far enough left, but they get a bit closer a couple of frames up and the rears are outboard of the fronts. Coincidentally, I also have a trackside photo of a car cutting the kink quite heavily... Jean-Eric Vergne!

 

[niky]

Pish posh. We all know what really happened. The CIA did it.

 

[Samus]

I can't get it precisely, but this is that corner - and coincidentally, the last corner that rear-left on Hamilton's car took

The fronts don't seem far enough left, but they get a bit closer a couple of frames up and the rears are outboard of the fronts. Coincidentally, I also have a trackside photo of a car cutting the kink quite heavily... Jean-Eric Vergne!

Ok, thanks. Because I have nothing better to do this afternoon I might transfer my recording to my PC and go through it more accurately. On that picture it certainly looks like he may be heading in a line that puts the rear over the edge but it doesn't seem to be the right angle for it to cut into it.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

That is on one single lap of the race. Just to throw another factor in here, but 3 of the failures occurred on tyres that had been used in qualifying as well, and I should imagine that more of the kerb was used then. I will have a look at his pole lap to see...

EDIT: Nowhere near... A more stressful lap on the tyres though early in their life, before the car is brimmed with fuel and those same tyres turn and brake a F1 car at its heaviest.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Ok, thanks. Because I have nothing better to do this afternoon I might transfer my recording to my PC and go through it more accurately. On that picture it certainly looks like he may be heading in a line that puts the rear over the edge but it doesn't seem to be the right angle for it to cut into it.

If you haven't see this already, might save you time: Davidson analyses tyre failures

They're not part of the track.

As long as you have one wheel on track, you are classed as on the track though going by regulations so it is understandable drivers use as much of it as possible especially with kerbs on F1 tracks being generally very inviting to use.

 

[Samus]

Pirelli have apparently been granted a three day test with no restrictions.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/oth...pirelli-can-solve-tyre-nightmare-8681414.html

 

[Famine]

Pirelli have apparently been granted a three day test with no restrictions.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/oth...pirelli-can-solve-tyre-nightmare-8681414.html

I wonder which teams they'll invite to that - and which teams will complain the loudest at not being invited...

As long as you have one wheel on track, you are classed as on the track though going by regulations

Part of one wheel, in fact - but the kerb is not part of the track.

20.2
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the
track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the
track.

so it is understandable drivers use as much of it as possible especially with kerbs on F1 tracks being generally very inviting to use.

And it's equally understandable that if they're not driving on the track, they may damage their tyres - and when the kerb isn't inviting to use because it has two inch teeth on it, they should probably avoid it.

But it's just one part of the picture. On a different day, the same tyre might have survived. With a different tyre, it might have survived on the same day...

 

[Samus]

As I was flicking through footage I did notice a lot of drivers, particularly Alonso, cut over the kerb at Becketts which looked pretty much identical in construction to turn 4 with the serated, rough edges and obviously caused no issue, being on the right side.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Pirelli have apparently been granted a three day test with no restrictions.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/oth...pirelli-can-solve-tyre-nightmare-8681414.html

Imagine uproar if Mercedes only get selected .

Part of one wheel, in fact - but the kerb is not part of the track.
And it's equally understandable that if they're not driving on the track, they may damage their tyres - and when the kerb isn't inviting to use because it has two inch teeth on it, they should probably avoid it.

But it's just one part of the picture. On a different day, the same tyre might have survived. With a different tyre, it might have survived on the same day...

Yep part of one wheel, I agree kerb is not part of the track.

It is kerbs which FIA have checked and passed and a number of race series have used over the years including F1 without any problems. In the cooler practice conditions there wasn't much of an issue even. Drivers also don't go that deep on the kerb identified as possible reason for causing tyre failure so most of them are avoiding the teeth as you put it.

 

[Samus]

They should just put every team in a hat and whichever is drawn out has to supply a 2012 car to Pirelli and that's it. No drivers, no team members, engineers or senior personnel, just a car and mechanics.The FIA can supply one or two independent drivers, the Nick Heidfeld's of the world, and Pirelli will run the test with the FIA in a transparent manner.

I really don't know why it wasn't done like that in the first place really.

 

[TheCracker]

As I was flicking through footage I did notice a lot of drivers, particularly Alonso, cut over the kerb at Becketts which looked pretty much identical in construction to turn 4 with the serated, rough edges and obviously caused no issue, being on the right side.

The Becketts 'complex' is a much older section of track than Aintree (is that what it's called?), the corner where people are saying the damage occurred. It's quite possible that the curbing is either of different construction, or that any rough edges at Becketts have been worn down by now.

 

[Samus]

The Becketts 'complex' is a much older section of track than Aintree (is that what it's called?), the corner where people are saying the damage occurred. It's quite possible that the curbing is either of different construction, or that any rough edges at Becketts have been worn down by now.

The track is of course but the kerbs look relatively fresh and as I say, the same design. I don't know when they were renewed, if it was the same time as the new section, but it's certainly not decades old kerbing.

 

[Willfred_1]

they will most likely change the construction even though for the most part there isn't anything nothing wrong with the tyres
however the tyre may not appear until two races time or after the break

 

[Pupik]

That's just what happens when you spin a 30lb tyre that has a puncture up to 1,800rpm at forty degrees..

If they're anything like the specs/dimensions of the Bridgestone racing tires, circa 2003-2006, then they're far lighter. The example tire we had at their corporate location weighed probably 5-7 pounds at most, by my surprised-right-arm-estimation.

My only question on blaming the circuit's curbing is this: Why did we not see this concern last year? There's been no major changes the past year. It may have been hotter, but Silverstone is far from the highest track temperatures they'll see all year, anyhow. I'd imagine Austin and Bahrain typically have higher ambient and therefore, higher track temperatures.

Even if Pirelli just says, hey we had a bad batch of tires, it might be the (temporary) end of this...but I suppose this isn't the kind of thing that resolves itself overnight. And if it isn't the tire supplier's fault, I'd hate to see them bundled out of the sport because of the typical team-against-team skullduggery.

 

[Anghammarad]

Anyway, I wonder if Hamilton would have been able to hold of Vettel the entire race. I don't think so.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I can't get it precisely, but this is that corner - and coincidentally, the last corner that rear-left on Hamilton's car took

The fronts don't seem far enough left, but they get a bit closer a couple of frames up and the rears are outboard of the fronts. Coincidentally, I also have a trackside photo of a car cutting the kink quite heavily... Jean-Eric Vergne!

You're looking one turn too late, that's turn 5 Gary Andersson was looking at the curbs at turn 4, the slow left hander (Massa didn't even get to turn 5 before his tyre had failed).

 

[RACECAR]

One thing I'm curious about is if these blowouts happened because of cuts from the curbs, how long did it take for those cuts to become full blowouts?

 

[SKIDMARX]

Pish posh. We all know what really happened. The CIA did it.

Oh..... I Don't Think So.
(Not sure if already posted but don't want to look through endless pages of tyre complaints.)

 

[daan]

You're looking one turn too late, that's turn 5 Gary Andersson was looking at the curbs at turn 4, the slow left hander (Massa didn't even get to turn 5 before his tyre had failed).

Gary said turn 4 in the video, but both Gary and Lewis are pictured at the same corner, which is 5.