Formula 1 2013 Santander British Grand Prix
- Thread starter lbsf1
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- Inferno_251
Whoops, my bad 
Either way, like I said before: arrogance doesn't make you a very respectable driver
Either way, like I said before: arrogance doesn't make you a very respectable driver
- 5,379
- Yokohama
- F1fan1
He didn't damage it. It was a wing failure. And he was ahead in the championship. And given the fact that vettel has consistently beaten webber, is it really a big surprise that the team chose to give him the better part?
Don't suppose you're an Alonso fan by any chance? Did Hungary 2007 count as backstabbing? What about Germany 2010 for that matter?
- 2,170
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- Inferno_251
I wouldn't be surprised if the tyres fail because of the kerbs, but that's still completely unacceptable. Pirelli's tyres didn't fail in 2011 and 2012 like this, so why should they now? Clearly something is wrong the tyres, but maybe if Pirelli was allowed to introduce the tyres they wanted to in Canada, we could've prevented this whole situation from happening
Ultimately, it's FIA and the teams fault for not allowing Pirelli to test and develop safe tyres.
There is no in-season testing and they aren't allowed to develop their tyres on relevant cars. The current tyres were developed with a 2010 (or 2011?) in 2012.
Pirelli wanted to introduce new tyres to prevent the delamination, but that requires the approval of all 11 teams and I think it was three teams that didn't approve a tyre change.
I hope something is done very quickly about this, though. It's very dangerous, especially when the tyre literally blow-up at 300 kph. Imagine something like that happening at Eau Rogue or 130R.
And absolutely nothing will happen for next weekend. It's too late to manufacture new tyres.
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- Wardez
- Wardez
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- gdwest1
SO Pirelli wanted to change the tyres, couldn't get approval, and then suddenly theres 5 failures? Huh...
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- GOTMAXPOWER
Pirelli were just fixing the McLaren's sidepods, they were getting rid of the bit which said 'ultrafast'
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- Peasantslayer
- 84,364
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Except Pirelli were told to make a tyre with high degradation to make racing better.
There's several factors working together here. No one of them is more important than the others and the finger of blame can't be pointed squarely at any, because eliminating any one of them eliminates the problem.
- Unexpectedly high ambient temperature for the tyres - hey, it's Silverstone in June, it should be binning it down.
- Tyre construction - the tyres are made to wear to force more frequent pitting. Reliance on steel-banded tyres rather than predominantly kevlar as previously used in F1 and as used in FIA WEC assists this high wear rate but also makes the tyres more prone to temperature changes and gives them a higher angular momentum, stressing the sidewalls.
- Sharp kerbs - that drop-off pointed out by Gary Anderson was savage. If the inner sidewall is past that and lateral movement drags back across the lip, it's going to generate cuts in the sidewall. This is Exactly What Actually Happened. I was up-close and personal with a chunk of Circuit de la Sarthe last weekend and I didn't see anything that approached that height OR that angle, never mind both at once. Given that it was only at that one corner, that has to have been a defect rather than a design.
- Drivers cutting corners - Like it or not, the white line defines the track limits and the kerbs are beyond the white line. The FIA treat F1 as a special case where drivers can hack lumps of track off (or straighten corners by driving off the outside of the exit) without penalty, but lower classes face "exceeding track limits" sanctions
You can waggle fingers at Pirelli all you like, but if it were cooler OR that kerb was smoother OR drivers were penalised for driving beyong limits OR any combination of these, there'd have been far fewer punctures with the same tyres. Not none, because you can't really ever state that, but Jean-Eric Vergne would probably have cleaner underpants today.
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- 2,170
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- Inferno_251
Tired Tyres
Premium
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- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
^ That's funny.
Since the white lines are the track limits, not the kerbs, it's their own fault for driving on something that isn't the track.
Having said that, asking a driver not to take the fastest route though a corner is a bit silly, so it is up to the FIA to enforce the rules properly. Between very slim and no chance of that ever happening though.
Since the white lines are the track limits, not the kerbs, it's their own fault for driving on something that isn't the track.
Having said that, asking a driver not to take the fastest route though a corner is a bit silly, so it is up to the FIA to enforce the rules properly. Between very slim and no chance of that ever happening though.
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I seem to recall reading a report about one of the tracks that features a bridge (Spain, Singapore?), where a 10mm step in the tarmac at the bridge, could cause catastrophic failure, can't remember where I saw it though.. might have been on TV overage.
I'm inclined to believe the curb theory... a 600ish Kilo car, with at least the same force again pushing the front wheels down, being sheared over a 90° step, right against the tyre shoulder, at 150ish mph... that's ALOT of force.
The way I see it:
If Pirelli's designed a bad tyre, that's their fault.
If the FIA don't have the protocols in place to allow Pirelli to sort the problem out that's the FIA's fault.
If drivers put their rubber somewhere it might get damaged, that's their fault
If the FIA doesn't stop the drivers putting their rubber somewhere it shouldn't be, that's the FIA's fault
If Silverstone Circuit has built shoddy curbs, or not maintained them properly, that's their fault
If the FIA has inspected the track and deemed it fir for purpose, it's the FIA's fault
.. basically, there's something everyone can do to minimise the chances of this happening, but at the end of the day, it's the FIA's show, they sanction the event and it's their responsibility to get the rules right, to get the checks right, and to enforce the decisions... It's down to them to pit this right IMHO.
I'm inclined to believe the curb theory... a 600ish Kilo car, with at least the same force again pushing the front wheels down, being sheared over a 90° step, right against the tyre shoulder, at 150ish mph... that's ALOT of force.
The way I see it:
If Pirelli's designed a bad tyre, that's their fault.
If the FIA don't have the protocols in place to allow Pirelli to sort the problem out that's the FIA's fault.
If drivers put their rubber somewhere it might get damaged, that's their fault
If the FIA doesn't stop the drivers putting their rubber somewhere it shouldn't be, that's the FIA's fault
If Silverstone Circuit has built shoddy curbs, or not maintained them properly, that's their fault
If the FIA has inspected the track and deemed it fir for purpose, it's the FIA's fault
.. basically, there's something everyone can do to minimise the chances of this happening, but at the end of the day, it's the FIA's show, they sanction the event and it's their responsibility to get the rules right, to get the checks right, and to enforce the decisions... It's down to them to pit this right IMHO.
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No, it doesn't - otherwise the tyres would have failed at random.
They didn't. They failed as a result of cuts from that kerb, during that race. It was the combination of the tyres and the kerb and the temperature - and the tyres were made to FIA demands.
As I said, you can't just simplistically wave a finger at Pirelli and their tyres. Conditions, the kerb and the fact drivers shouldn't even be on the kerb all worked together with the tyres to generate tyre failures.
Anyone else think that we are seeing all these problems as a result manufactures want Michelin back as the teams can't seem to get to grips< pun intended> with these tyres yet lotus and force India and another team are looking good because they can work the tyres to there advantage.
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Indeed - I can't say that it has been, but the inside line seems to be that the combination of higher-than-expected heat, low tyre pressures (the failures all seem to have occurred on cars running 15psi) and inner sidewall damage (note that all the failures exhibit preserved outer sidewalls) has caused the failures.
But we'll wait and see what flannelling Silverstone, the FIA and Pirelli can conjure up between them
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- SiiverArrow
Derek Warwick has responded to the claims that the kerbs are to blame.
- 84,364
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- GTP_Famine
Looks fairly well preserved to me.
He's probably right. It seems incredibly unlikely that a single factor is the sole culprit, rather a combination of factors where any can be removed and the problem would not exist.
