Formula 1 Formula 1 Off Season, Launches and Testing thread 2019-20

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Jimlaad43, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne

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    Firstly: we don't know what level of agreement there may be between Mercedes and this customer.

    Secondly: Teams spend a lot of money photographing each other's work at every opportunity. It wouldn't be difficult to model that up when so many of the metrics for baselines are known.
     
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  2. LordExia

    LordExia

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    This might be a very ignorant and stupid question but I'll ask it anyway, does changing the tire toe also means changing the suspension?

    I'm not all that great with the technical stuff but when I think suspension I'm thinking spring rate/load, ride height and such. While I understand that the steering rack is also connected to the suspension it may not necessarily mean that device is impacting how the suspension is set up in the car.

    Assuming that's the case, that could be very much legal and if they get to keep using it, I'm very interested to see how much of a gain they would get from that.
     
  3. baldgye

    baldgye Premium

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    https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes-das-steering-innovation-explained-by-gary-anderson/

    Here it is explained, I don't think it touches the suspension
     
  4. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    So not necessarily, typically it is because suspension angle dictates the toe, camber, and caster. However, the heave can effect it too, the balance ratio has an effect as well.

    This system is supposedly one where the driver gives the inputs via added steering gemoetry. The FIA is aware as well and so far seem fine with it.
    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148345/mercedes-fia-is-aware-of-dualaxis-steering

    Here is a clip for those curious of what is actually being talked about who haven't seen it.
     
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  5. LordExia

    LordExia

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    So essentially, we will get to see them using it over the season. I'm very intrigued about how they'll put that to use and if that bit of innovation will give them a leg up on their rivals.
     
  6. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    It's pretty simple in what it will help improve, front wear tire life is one benefit. It will also improve lap times, if it works like it should. The car can have an optimal toe angle setup for great corner speeds, but also be setup for straight lines as well. Rather than have one general setting which compromises one area over another, this would mean little to no compromise.
     
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  7. twitcher

    twitcher

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    I’ve never really understood F1’s banning of active suspension. The only reason it makes sense is for cost reducing purposes, but it’s not like the teams don’t find ways to spend that money regardless.

    In my opinion, excessive downforce and flappy paddle gear boxes both have less road relevance than active suspension, and have both done more to ruin good racing than active suspension ever would.
     
  8. DesertPenguin

    DesertPenguin Premium

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    I was only 6 years old in 1994 but I think it had a lot to do with things being automated per track and that took control out of the driver's hands. That's unsportsmanlike. Then later on there were ducts that drivers would have to leave open or cover with a hand meaning only one hand on the wheel. That was disliked because of the obvious danger of controlling an F1 car with one hand. This new thing is driver controlled and he has both hands on the wheel so... I don't know where I'm going with this lol
     
  9. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Paddle shift applications have been road applicable since the mid late 90s so I don't see how it has less. It an efficient and more seamless way for a car to be controlled via transmission and has come a long way, to the point that it is more ideal than the "purist" floor shifter.

    Aerodynamics are necessary for obvious reasons. Not everything done in F1 is to be road relevent and many teams would argue shouldn't be given the nature of the cars and the goal of being the fastest pinnacle of motorsport. However the advances in CFD and wind tunnel technology to achieve such a level have had benefits to many applications beyond cars...

    For why active suspension was banned, us due to the very quick and dangerous levels it allowed the car to carry speed through corners. As well as the development cost on top of the development cost in aero, engines and other innovations.
     
  10. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Paddle shifters on road cars are either only on performance cars, or are a gimmick. Active suspension could be used on any kind of road car, from a work truck to a kei car.

    Active suspension makes cars corner quicker. Aerodynamic downforce makes cars corner quicker. Larger, stickier tires make cars corner quicker. Same difference.

    I also never said everything about F1 has to be road relevant.
     
  11. -Fred-

    -Fred- Staff Emeritus

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    Ask Alex Zanardi how he feels about active suspension, after his failed through Eau Rouge...


    They got rid of it because of the exorbitant costs, in part, but also because they were quite dangerous when they stopped working.
     
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  12. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    Active Suspension was too fast for the safety of the early-mid 90's, which is why it went away.
     
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  13. twitcher

    twitcher

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    I get that it was too fast for the 90s, but with improvements to cars and tracks today, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think it could make a come back.

    As far as the dangers involved when the system fails, especially mid corner, I don’t see how that’s any more dangerous than a tire failing mid corner; or even DRS failing to close, which we’ve seen a couple times.
     
  14. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    It wasn't unsportsmanlike I really don't see how you arrived to that.

    The F-duct came about 16 years later, did not require the driver to take a hand off the wheel, rather they rested their leg on a hole in the cockpit to stall out the rear wing.

    Jus like the F duct, DAS is driver controlled and thus not an active

    If that were the case they would be seen in all levels of cars, they're not. Upper end cars like high performance and luxury cars see them. Paddle shifters are seen in far greater use and with different ranges of the application.

    What gimmick are you talking about with them?

    No, not the same difference, they all do this in different ways and varying degrews of success. The active suspension having the best benefit when done right and coupled with the others. A system that controls yaw, pitch, roll and heave and can easily be changed quickly or over a duration has much more lasting effects.

    The danger is when it's abused or fails. Zanardi crash in 93 due to an active suspension failure that ended his season is one such example. The cost chasing by teams was again the other issue.

    Never said you did, rather that you seem to imply road relevence should or is a big factor to why thing should be allowed in F1.
     
  15. BrainsBush

    BrainsBush

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    With all the testing in Barcelona we almost forgot the new Arie Luyendyk curve. That angle is steep

    [​IMG]
     
  16. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Paddle shifters are only seen on a wider variety of vehicles because in most cases, it’s a gimmick, an optional selling feature. Unless we’re talking high end performance cars, vast majority of road cars can be fully automatic.

    If active suspension had received as much R&D and marketing over the last 20-30 years as paddle shift gearboxes have, perhaps we’d see active suspension on a wider variety of road vehicles.

    Like I’ve said, I understand the safety argument in the 90s, I just don’t think the same argument is as strong today.

    It is a big factor in what is allowed in F1 though, at least according to the big wigs in F1. They’re always yammering on about road relevance, and trickle down development, blah blah blah. Personally I could care less about road relevance. My point is, a lot of where F1 is today (eg hybrids) is because of manufacturers insisting on road relevance, while at the same time they spend endless dollars researching downforce, which for 95% of road cars, has no relevance. Same with paddle shift gear boxes to a degree.
     
  17. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Glad someone else telling you the exact reason why it was bad after I did, helped you understand why it was banned.

    As for the comeback, teams have agreed in recent to wanting it back, the 2021 rules had it as an option even at one point. In reality we're just answering your initial question as to why it was banned. So far the FIA doesn't want to bring it back, and with cost control measure and spec computers soon to be a thing, it makes it even less likely to be seen any time soon.

    Because the car gets turned into something with no control. We've seen tires go out and the drivers have some control in those situations and the speed tends to get scrubbed. DRS failures don't lead into the cars driving off with no control, rather a driver turns wide into a corner, and then needs to pit to fix the situation.

    The only thing I can think of similar to the active suspension failures are the suspension failures we've seen in the more modern cars where the drivers are just sitting in a missile basically with no control. Another, would be front wing failures as well. Or as it was described with the Zanardi incident like a surfboard. The other problem was the cars were run at very low ride heights to try and simulate the suction effects that the then banned ground effects provided prior. So level car through an entire corner carrying fast speeds, along with low clearance and tons of downforce is a very dangerous mix.
     
  18. twitcher

    twitcher

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    From the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for helping me understand, oh wise one.
     
  19. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    I have a feeling it's one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" situations. The teams know that Active Suspension will give them massive amounts of laptime at a vast cost, so it would just allow the top teams to spend their way to the top even further than they currently are. With a budget cap imminent, Active Suspension seems like a waste of time and capital.
     
  20. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Pretty much every car has the option, and it's not a selling feature it's just given out because sometime it's necessary to have that control depending on the driving situation. Only time I hear the "gimmick" argument is from those who are greatly opposed to it due to wanting traditional manual gearboxes. Even the high end cars are semi auto, or 7 to 10 speed auto because the computer shifts faster. But that technology innovation came from the move away from manual gear boxes to semi auto paddle boxes and then further. So in reality the innovation has proven itself and beyond.

    As for R&D being taken from Active suspension, that's not true at all. The first systems were developed and being used in the 50s and then further in the next decade and onward. Bose even had a system in the early 90s, known as the "magic carpet" suspension that virtually eliminated body roll. However, it was costly (again) and heavy to implement for the time. This was done by a manufacture who wasn't even in F1 and others as well not in F1. Also there is plenty of active electronic suspension it's just in upper end luxury and high performance cars as I said. There is no reason to put it into lower end or even mid range cars especially for the cost.

    Great, glad again you understand after being told a few times. The argument however is for the FIA to decide. Teams want it back as I said though.

    No it's not a big factor, it only recently became one, due to how big of an effect the 08 global market crash had on the automotive industry and how it eliminated frivolous spending, which despite how you and I see it, that is what racing more often tends to be. Manufactures (other than Ferrari) don't want to spend millions of dollars unless they're getting some added benefit to use, beyond PR and global advertising 20 to 22 Sundays every year.

    They're not researching down force they know the science, what they're doing is spending money developing tools to reconfigure aero kits within the always changing rules of F1. Which is why when you get consecutive years of the same rules, you don't see the cars change drastically. Also aerodynamics doesn't have "no relevance" for "95 percent of road cars". If it did companies wouldn't spend as much as they do on ANSYS or CAD tools that help model CFD to better enhance the shape of their cars and allow for better fuel efficiency along with other factors. Again as I said
    these advances in such tools have real world applications even if what F1 teams are doing don't, and F1 teams have actually helped the industry by advancing said tools through their "non relevant" work. As for the gearboxes I've explained it quite well it's a dead horse to keep trying to rehash it from step one.

    Not a problem :tup:

    Though I'd probably be far more receptive and feel less likely to point out that I'm repeating myself, if I didn't have to in the first place every time you want to state yourself (views?).
     
  21. twitcher

    twitcher

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    What if, just as an example for the sake of discussion, the regs called for standardized gearboxes and brakes, allowing that portion of the budget to be spent on active suspension?

    Edit:
    No one is asking you to repeat yourself, you just seem to insist on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  22. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Insist on what? You ignored the factual answers I gave you, then when others said the same thing after you accepted them. Not before arguing those same reasons when posed by me but not others. It's just a bit strange honestly. Especially when you don't see a difference in what the system provides as opposed to mechanical grip and aero grip without it.

    Also people have been asking for standard gearboxes for some time as well, and many people have the option to buy them from the manufacture they use to power their cars. Others rather build in house due to it being cheaper supposedly. Brakes are pretty standard drive by wire, but what drives that cost up is how they're housed, the cooling systems and integration with the wheel hub assembly
     
  23. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Insist on repeating yourself. Where did I ignore you? Are you actually salty because I quoted Jim and not you?
     
  24. evldave333

    evldave333

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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51576106
    The new Dual Axis Steering system might be a game changer, apparently Mercedes have talked to the FIA about it and it is compliant with the regulations. Bad news for the other teams if this allows Mercedes to have better wear and tyre temperature management. Potentially they could have a couple of months advantage out of this before the other teams implement a copy / interpretation of it. Its early days yet Im curious what Ferrari's true pace is looks like they're sandbagging so far.
     
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  25. evldave333

    evldave333

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  26. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    I gather an Alfa Romeo was quickest in testing today. It's very rare that an Alfa is quickest in anything to do with F1.

    I remember a glorious day long ago when a man of amazing bravery put an Alfa on the pole at Long Beach. I was only feet away when he made sparks between his rims and the wall on his pole lap.
     
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  27. -Fred-

    -Fred- Staff Emeritus

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    I can't wait to see how Codemasters will make DAS work in the next F1 game. :lol:
     
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  28. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Logitech are rubbing their palms together right now :lol:
     
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  29. DesertPenguin

    DesertPenguin Premium

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    It will probably be a button for in or out like DRS. I doubt it has gradual settings.
     
  30. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne

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    That was Raikkkonnnnnen, but he was the only Ultrasoft runner of the day, and it looks like the top teams went for heavier/longer runs today on M and H. Still nice to see Alfa up there, testing or not :)