Forza 4 Demo Thread

[buttsneeze]

Probably was. I seem to recall agreeing with you specifically, allthough I may not have posted such at the time. Take that for whatever you want it to mean, but to me that suggests name calling hasn't helped.

Yeah, name calling doesn't help, but neither does being exorbitantly stupid.

 

[NA]

I edited that qoute. Sincerely, do what you want. I think we understand each other as much has we are going to.

 

[buttsneeze]

I edited that qoute. Sincerely, do what you want. I think we understand each other as much has we are going to.

I never accused you of being stupid, sorry if it seemed that way.

 

[JJ72]

This isn't something particularly complex or open to interpretation. We tested it thoroughly, we recorded videos of it, and we know exactly what's going on from the player's point of view. Maybe we don't have the code in front of us but that doesn't mean we can't tell very clearly that there's a steering assist. It's like if I paint a wall green and you all tell me it's actually red. Saying something that's green is red is not a different point of view, it's just wrong.

People ain't only discussing if there is steering assist but exactly what parameter causes it, it is speed + slip angle, or slip angle alone, or maybe not related to slip angle but yaw, whether it is an ON/OFF thing or there's an algorithm behind it etc. And hence what could be the solutions, if it'll be an easy fix as in an mechanism taken out of the engine or it's a factor of several mechanisms which will be harder to get rid of.

 

[buttsneeze]

People ain't only discussing if there is steering assist but exactly what parameter causes it, it is speed + slip angle, or slip angle alone, or maybe not related to slip angle but yaw, whether it is an ON/OFF thing or there's an algorithm behind it etc. And hence what could be the solutions, if it'll be an easy fix as in an mechanism taken out of the engine or it's a factor of several mechanisms which will be harder to get rid of.

It's gone when using any wheel in sim steering set to 270 degrees or less, so it shouldn't be difficult to remove. Probably one bit of code they forgot to take out of the 900 degree steering implementation.

 

[Prosthetic]

You are taking everything so personal. It is everyone's right to challenge you. I fine it to be an healthy process until the name calling start. So dial it down a little and don't be so closed minded. You might find that other might have some interesting point of view on the matter.

We've listened to enough trivial close minded remarks. When we first brought it up, every single response to our very polite and well expressed point of views were "Well Dan says this so it must be true." And the same posts by the same people keep on pouring in like a bukkake fest that has gone out of control. To the point where its the only response we have gotten.

There has yet to be any sort of of demonstration of "well I can't get that to happen so there definitely isn't there" without posting any sort of evidence to back up their claim. But its the same side as a dev team that has history of lies. There really is no other explanation to these peoples post other then that they are blind sheep congregating in a puddle of a rich man. Taking his word and running off the cliff with it.

But now there has been another corporate power introduced into a lopsided argument. One which has posted numerous irresistible pieces of evidence that has yet to be logically debunked. The other being an army of pawns fighting with nothing but faith in a liar.

 

[amar212]

Yeah, it was respectful until the stupids came in and decided that facts and evidence weren't good enough.

Look Butt, you really shouldn't call anyone "stupid".

It takes more than watching a YT videos or reading technical explanations to understand this issue. One have to have a 900 steering wheel, have to know what are the inputs he have to recognize and he should spend some time in the demo.

So you should be more polite and open-minded in your approach because it takes a subjective expertise and few other issue to completely understand a problem we're trying to highlight.

Just an advice 👍

 

[Prosthetic]

Look Butt, you really shouldn't call anyone "stupid".

It takes more than watching a YT videos or reading technical explanations to understand this issue. One have to have a 900 steering wheel, have to know what are the inputs he have to recognize and he should spend some time in the demo.

So you should be more polite and open-minded in your approach because it takes a subjective expertise and few other issue to completely understand a problem we're trying to highlight.

Just an advice 👍

We understand that, but most of the responses are. "I'm so happy Dan removed steering assist and its not there any more, it gives me a woody to know all these people are wrong and Dan is right because he made this wonderful game of amazing awesomeness."

Really, what else can you say. Nothing. Especially when its 10 different people all double posting it over and over and over and over. All for the sake of trolling or post count collecting.

 

[buttsneeze]

Look Butt, you really shouldn't call anyone "stupid".

It takes more than watching a YT videos or reading technical explanations to understand this issue. One have to have a 900 steering wheel, have to know what are the inputs he have to recognize and he should spend some time in the demo.

So you should be more polite and open-minded in your approach because it takes a subjective expertise and few other issue to completely understand a problem we're trying to highlight.

Just an advice 👍

Yeah, it does take experience with the 900 degree wheel, which is why these people should stop posting drivel when they have no experience with it themselves.

 

[JJ72]

just ignore them. afterall all that matters is you can present your findings logically and clearly to the people who matters i.e. turn 10. Have anyone sent them an e-mail in clear concise and well organised bulletpoints?

furthermore as the PR guy he has every reason to handle the problem, even IF there is indeed no steering aid he will still has to resolve the unrest among the community, so it's his job one way or the other. All we are doing is helping him out.

 

[Prosthetic]

just ignore them. afterall all that matters is you can present your findings logically and clearly to the people who matters i.e. turn 10. Have anyone sent them an e-mail in clear concise and well organised bulletpoints?

furthermore as the PR guy he has every reason to handle the problem, even IF there is indeed no steering aid he will still has to resolve the unrest among the community, so it's his job one way or the other. All we are doing is helping him out.

No, they just ignore us and say we are wrong. Turn 10 is just playing talk to the hand but we don't care, but we still want your money so buy the game.

 

[buttsneeze]

just ignore them. afterall all that matters is you can present your findings logically and clearly to the people who matters i.e. turn 10. Have anyone sent them an e-mail in clear concise and well organised bulletpoints?

furthermore as the PR guy he has every reason to handle the problem, even IF there is indeed no steering aid he will still has to resolve the unrest among the community, so it's his job one way or the other. All we are doing is helping him out.

Sent an email with video proof and detailed explanation to the Forza email address. No response. Can't post on the official forums about it because they censor my posts, but Yoritomo and others have been doing a good job of getting the word out (though people are still spewing BS trying to prove the assist isn't there, or justify it). We've also contacted Thomas, the head Fanatec guy, to see if he can get Turn 10 to fix it. And of course I made Dan aware of it via Facebook but he was quick to deny it and block me instead of addressing the problem.

 

[Scaff]

This thread calms down and members start to treat each other with respect or a few will be taking holidays from GT Planet, those may be short, long or permanent holidays dependent entirely on how much they feel like ignoring the AUP and staff.


Scaff

 

[omgitsbees]

No, they just ignore us and say we are wrong. Turn 10 is just playing talk to the hand but we don't care, but we still want your money so buy the game.

So don't buy the game then? If this non-issue that doesn't really exist, is that big of a deal to you, then stick with GT5.

 

[Spagetti69]

Look Butt

He, he you sounded welsh there for a minute.

Open wheelers would really show up this assist very well.

Good job Turn 10 havent put any open wheelers in, it would make the steering look really odd.

I wonder why we haven't got any open wheeler cars this year after so many asking for them.
Hmmm I wonder.......

Anyway it's done and that's that. The total amount of players using a 900 degree wheel is a drop in the ocean.
Yes I'm one if them and I know in my heart a fix isn't coming.

 

[amar212]

I know Prosthetic, but it is really not so common to seek for a full logic on community boards

I am perfectly aware of this issue, I have reported it myself few days ago and many of us who have the 900 wheels and playing this game for *serious* are 100% aware how some kind of assist - I prefer to call it buffer, since I find it doing the same as infamous "steering buffer" from Forza 3 - is in place. At least at this demo.

I am still waiting for the full game in order to see what is going on. Since this demo does not provide us with nay adjustable option regarding wheel, it *could* imply how some issues we're experiencing comes because game itself can't really know what wheel are we using.

Lack of HID controller in Xbox console means that hardware have to rely on wireless connection in order to detect the device. And at this point we have one generation of 270 wheels (Microsoft, Logitech), Fanatec 900 wheels and new Microsoft Speed giro-controller (I will never call that device a wheel ) for a game to recognize and adjust the steering.

Maybe, just maybe there is some hope we will get rid of that horrible buffer.

My hopes lies in fact how Demo can't really recognize 900 input device until you actually perform a "S_1/S_2" trick and it could lead in full recognition when options become available.

If not, than it is clear how buffer is still there. And no word from no person - even main developer director - can't assure me that reason because I can't force F458 to spin unless I really kill it with oversteering is because all assists are off and car should behave that way.

 

[buttsneeze]

So don't buy the game then? If this non-issue that doesn't really exist, is that big of a deal to you, then stick with GT5.

See, this is the problem. When something has been proven to exist, repeatedly, with hard evidence, you can't call it a "non-issue that doesn't really exist" and expect people to treat what you're saying as a legitimate point of view. You're not contributing anything to the discussion. You've informed us long ago that you don't care, so I think it's time you stop repeating yourself.

 

[buttsneeze]

I know Prosthetic, but it is really not so common to seek for a full logic on community boards

I am perfectly aware of this issue, I have reported it myself few days ago and many of us who have the 900 wheels and playing this game for *serious* are 100% aware how some kind of assist - I prefer to call it buffer, since I find it doing the same as infamous "steering buffer" from Forza 3 - is in place. At least at this demo.

I am still waiting for the full game in order to see what is going on. Since this demo does not provide us with nay adjustable option regarding wheel, it *could* imply how some issues we're experiencing comes because game itself can't really know what wheel are we using.

Lack of HID controller in Xbox console means that hardware have to rely on wireless connection in order to detect the device. And at this point we have one generation of 270 wheels (Microsoft, Logitech), Fanatec 900 wheels and new Microsoft Speed giro-controller (I will never call that device a wheel ) for a game to recognize and adjust the steering.

Maybe, just maybe there is some hope we will get rid of that horrible buffer.

My hopes lies in fact how Demo can't really recognize 900 input device until you actually perform a "S_1/S_2" trick and it could lead in full recognition when options become available.

If not, than it is clear how buffer is still there. And no word from no person - even main developer director - can't assure me how the fact I can't force F458 to spin unless I really kill it with oversteering is because all assists are off and car should behave that way.

It detects the 900 degree wheel more or less properly, it just has a counter steer assist that changes the steering rate when the car is slipping. All we need is for that counter steer assist to be removed when in sim steering and we're golden. The assist is specifically part of the 900 degree wheel implementation, because when you make the game think it's a 270 degree wheel it goes away (but that opens a can of worms in the form of massive linearity problems).

 

[Prosthetic]

So don't buy the game then? If this non-issue that doesn't really exist, is that big of a deal to you, then stick with GT5.

Why do you assume I have GT5? I don't own a 360 nor a PS3.

Why do you bother posting crapola like this "f this non-issue that doesn't really exist" It does nothing but derail the thread in a spiral of kindergarten name calling. Don't act like you're taking the high road while pouting with your arms crossed. If your going to try and disprove our complaints then do it with evidence not playground drama.

 

[omgitsbees]

I have not seen this issue myself, on my 900 degree wheel. I looked at the video posted, tried replicating and couldn't. I know a few others who have done the same and can't replicate it. I can't explain the video, but it has to be something on the users end, not the game, otherwise it would happen to everyone.

Why do you assume I have GT5? I don't own a 360 nor a PS3.

Then why are you posting something about a game you've never even played? This is why i'm not taking the camp that believes this issue exists, seriously.

 

[buttsneeze]

I have not seen this issue myself, on my 900 degree wheel. I looked at the video posted, tried replicating and couldn't. I know a few others who have done the same and can't replicate it. I can't explain the video, but it has to be something on the users end, not the game, otherwise it would happen to everyone.

If you can't replicate the issue then the problem is on your end, either mentally or technically. The majority of Fanatec users who are setting their wheel up properly and have actual sim experience are reporting the issue. How about you record yourself playing with the 900 degree wheel and show us the lack of the assist? Please, I'd love to see your proof. Also, "I haven't seen it, therefore it doesn't exist" is a classic logical fallacy.

Then why are you posting something about a game you've never even played? This is why i'm not taking the camp that believes this issue exists, seriously.

He has played it, he was at my house and played the demo with my Fanatec wheel for a good two hours.

 

[Prosthetic]

Then why are you posting something about a game you've never even played? This is why i'm not taking the camp that believes this issue exists, seriously.

Now your assuming I've never played the game because I don't own it? I have posted this already multiple times, buttsneeze and I know each other in real life. I have played the demo when it came out with him and another friend with a Fanatec 911 Turbo S wheel. All three of us were able to recreate this situation every single time we attempted it. Even when hot lapping its noticeable whenever you need to correct yourself. If you mess up, its ALWAYS because you are over correcting. You aren't expecting help from the computer resulting in a fishtail and half the time that ends up hitting another car or a wall.

 

[phil-t]

It's gone when using any wheel in sim steering set to 270 degrees or less, so it shouldn't be difficult to remove. Probably one bit of code they forgot to take out of the 900 degree steering implementation.

I thought I replicated it at 270 Degrees as well, it was just more masked by the fact the range is so limited, you tend to be putting in substantial countersteering anyway, but if you do some fixed tests, I'm sure I see the same 'stepped' steering graphic movement.

I'll double check tonight.


I did more hotlapping in the Zonda, and wow.. I really love the physics, keeping the momentum up and keeping the car around the limit is so rewarding..

I did a few laps with the telemetry up, as I do slide it slightly on a couple of corners, occasionally getting it about 10-15 degrees rotated with some countersteering, and I am glad to say that I don't see any assist kicking in at those levels, it just feels so natural..

Being clinical, I can sense a bit too much progression to what my brain thinks should be real, cars let go with some decorum and this does flatter and reward you nicely, which is good from a playability point of view, but technically I'm sure this is deemed unrealistic.. This is nothing to do with any visible assist, no countersteering is used, just 4 wheel drifting, the telemetry shows nothing untoward..

 

[buttsneeze]

I thought I replicated it at 270 Degrees as well, it was just more masked by the fact the range is so limited, you tend to be putting in substantial countersteering anyway, but if you do some fixed tests, I'm sure I see the same 'stepped' steering graphic movement.

I'll double check tonight.


I did more hotlapping in the Zonda, and wow.. I really love the physics, keeping the momentum up and keeping the car around the limit is so rewarding..

I did a few laps with the telemetry up, as I do slide it slightly on a couple of corners, occasionally getting it about 10-15 degrees rotated with some countersteering, and I am glad to say that I don't see any assist kicking in at those levels, it just feels so natural..

Being clinical, I can sense a bit too much progression to what my brain thinks should be real, cars let go with some decorum and this does flatter and reward you nicely, which is good from a playability point of view, but technically I'm sure this is deemed unrealistic.. This is nothing to do with any visible assist, no countersteering is used, just 4 wheel drifting, the telemetry shows nothing untoward..

In my testing the assist is not present at all in sim steering with the wheel set to 270. Try it again at 900 and you'll definitely notice it.

 

[phil-t]

In my testing the assist is not present at all in sim steering with the wheel set to 270. Try it again at 900 and you'll definitely notice it.

Yes, I know it's present at 900, I've mentioned it a few times that I can replicate it! I just thought it also did it at 270 when I was testing..

Anyway, I'll repeat it tonight and double check.. I'd also like to confirm whether it is dependent on the rotation angle of the car as well..(Certainly seemed to be to me) do some more structured testing as it's easy to get it to do it, but it might help to characterise it as much as possible..

 

[drivatar]

As far as I can tell the "assist" is also present when using the Microsoft wheel. But it's less noticeable and intrusive than when using a gamepad (or a 900° wheel but I can't test this myself).

 

[PzR Slim]

Chris and PzR are you using wheels or controllers guys?

Fanatec PWTS with clubsports

 

[PzR Slim]

I thought I replicated it at 270 Degrees as well, it was just more masked by the fact the range is so limited, you tend to be putting in substantial countersteering anyway, but if you do some fixed tests, I'm sure I see the same 'stepped' steering graphic movement.

I'll double check tonight.


I did more hotlapping in the Zonda, and wow.. I really love the physics, keeping the momentum up and keeping the car around the limit is so rewarding..

I did a few laps with the telemetry up, as I do slide it slightly on a couple of corners, occasionally getting it about 10-15 degrees rotated with some countersteering, and I am glad to say that I don't see any assist kicking in at those levels, it just feels so natural..

Being clinical, I can sense a bit too much progression to what my brain thinks should be real, cars let go with some decorum and this does flatter and reward you nicely, which is good from a playability point of view, but technically I'm sure this is deemed unrealistic.. This is nothing to do with any visible assist, no countersteering is used, just 4 wheel drifting, the telemetry shows nothing untoward..

I want to reiterate this point. I've done the same as Crazy and this assist is only evident under certain conditions. Otherwise why would you see the snap. When the snap happens the conditions that exist for the assist to switch on must disappear. And following that logic it must also appear at a certain condition. I can say after a lot of testing of hotlapping the Zonda that under normal driving with small slides and twitches of the car this is assist is not present. Slides have to be fairly substantial for the right conditions to exist for this assist to come into play.

What we need to do is work out what the trigger for the assist is. Is it a yaw angle, a certain value of tyre slip or even a degree of countersteer angle when using 900 degree wheels. Or is it a combination of many such factors?

 

[HBK]

I can confirm the "assist" does not kick in unless there is some serious sliding going on. Probably a combination of factors such as slip angles, speed, and the act of actually counter-steering.

 

[Risco]

In my testing the assist is not present at all in sim steering with the wheel set to 270. Try it again at 900 and you'll definitely notice it.

Mate, do us all a favour and put a lid on it. For the last 8 pages or so since I replied all I see is you moaning and groaning. So yes, we get it, there is an issue with the steering. But seriously, do you need to go on and on and on about it? The answer is NO, you don't. I am surpised a moderator hasn't branched your posts off to another thread. So far you have come across as obnoxious, rude and arrogant. With that attitude, nobody is gonna listen as you sound like someone with ADHD. I hope I do not see another post about from you unless it is ON TOPIC and about the game, NOT the friggin steering wheel ( which is owned by a very small percentage of users )

So back on topic, I am totally loving this game. If you have a Sony Bravia set, I suggest you set the scene mode to Gaming Standard. The picture looks a lot more natural. I have to also say that the steering is much improved and the cars don't spin you every time they clip your wing like in Forza 3. I hope the career mode is better, I got SO bored playing it I never completed the last one.