Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Thread...
Going back to controller
- Thread starter JayRS200
- 302 comments
- 24,025 views
- 4,978
- Val d'Orcia,Tuscany
- hardvibes
- ACR HardVibes
It's an expensive hobby. I'm tired of upgrading wheels just because companies don't allow you to use one on a certain platform and because of all the drivers issues. I don't understand any of that and I don't care.
I thought once about getting a cronusmax hub, then gave up because I wasn't sure about compatibility (what if the feedback is not as good as I expected) and because it wasn't available at some point. Then busy life took me somewhere else.
I'm better off using the pad and that's it. All I need in GT7 is a clutch button, like in FM, and a good use of the DS5 triggers (unlike the DS3's and DS4's)
I thought once about getting a cronusmax hub, then gave up because I wasn't sure about compatibility (what if the feedback is not as good as I expected) and because it wasn't available at some point. Then busy life took me somewhere else.
I'm better off using the pad and that's it. All I need in GT7 is a clutch button, like in FM, and a good use of the DS5 triggers (unlike the DS3's and DS4's)
- 772
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- CoolJetta3
Pigems
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- 9,122
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- TT_Pigems
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This sounds like a showdown for the ages, now I just need Shed Sheeran or the definitely not fake Alex Albon (or both, one can dreamOMG, really? Would you like a hero biscuit or a gold star?And we’ll race at 8pm EST Saturday, if you can still stay up that late anyways.
) to commentate it and I'm all set! 8pm EST is 2am CET, but, who cares?
- 1,772
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- AWRacing17
Junkman55
(Banned)
- 470
- United States
About Ten years ago driving simulator in your home was not available for anyone except the wealthy and then it was custom made . A YouTube video called Inside Sim Racing made a DIY cock pit for a T500 wheel that made me think about Sim Racing would be a cool thing to do.
If a gamer has to look for his game pad to have fun in a racing simulator game that is a telling the story. If you can not keep your A rating or have the same amount of wins you are not happy and need assistance in your game pad racing. Most FFB wheel drivers know the difference between the two controller and will not go back to the pad . Racing is not supposed to be easy ask anyone who did it in real life.
If a gamer has to look for his game pad to have fun in a racing simulator game that is a telling the story. If you can not keep your A rating or have the same amount of wins you are not happy and need assistance in your game pad racing. Most FFB wheel drivers know the difference between the two controller and will not go back to the pad . Racing is not supposed to be easy ask anyone who did it in real life.
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FPV MIC
Premium
- 4,189
- Australia
- GT-MIC
I had my first wheel in the 90's (edit: it was a bungee chord wheel) and I was far from wealthy back then. I also had a T500 I bought about 10 years ago and by that stage it was my forth wheel so I built my 2nd rig and guess what, while I wasn't what most would call poor I certainly wasn't wealthy then either. I, and many others are just as fast with a pad as we are on a wheel and capable of being an A rated driver quite easily on both.
Summary: You really do have no idea!
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- 3,828
- Canada
- Kaizen-Teian
Strictly speaking a simulator is 100% computer generated. Like they use to predict virus behavior.
What we do is Human in the Loop simulation or interactive sim. The goals are very different. They were considered the same before games because the goals were similar such as teaching or research. Early flight sims and driving sim were.
Due to popularity racing/flying has warped the definition to mean interactive gaming with special controllers.
What we do is Human in the Loop simulation or interactive sim. The goals are very different. They were considered the same before games because the goals were similar such as teaching or research. Early flight sims and driving sim were.
Due to popularity racing/flying has warped the definition to mean interactive gaming with special controllers.
- 1,049
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- HaydenFan69
- 593
- Stockholm
Pigems
Premium
- 9,122
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@killerjimbag You don’t allow people to send you private messages(or even view your profile lol), so how are we supposed to set up a race?
- 714
- New York
- GTP-DEADPOOL
I haven't used a controller since maybe GT3, apart from the rare messing around moment. Recently I tried to do a few laps with my son, didn't feel like busting out my rig so I used the DS4. I'm rubbish on the controller, BUT that's also due to a lack of use, I'm sure out of necessity I would adapt and be decent, we have many guys on here who are exceptionally quick/smooth with a DS4, so it can be done. But for me, I personally don't see the point, but I'm an all or nothing guy. Takes me 20-30min to build my rig, which means I need to really be in the mood to drive and drive for a few hours.
DS4 def has the advantage of being physically less demanding, especially when compared to a higher end setup with a load cell. Some tracks/corners favor the speed the DS4 can go from lock to lock with tight fast transitions instantly whereas with a wheel you need to physically rotate the wheel which takes longer. And with higher force wheels, this can get tiring after a long race. Same with having to use a load cell, lap after lap hammering on a 50kg+ load cell takes it's toll, even more if you have bad knees like me lol.
Great thing is, there are many options and ways to play. Want to be casual and play with DS4 go for it, wanna dedicate tons of time and perfect the DS4 go for it, want to spend $10k plus on a rig have at it. The most important part is racing clean, how you do it is irrelevant.
It's not a matter of no power steering. The force setting is entirely dependent on the strength of the wheel being used. For instance, your T150 has around 2.5Nm of TQ...........which is nothing. Your street car has more TQ than that. Most high end sports cars are in the 6-8Nm range. To get close to replicating a real street car you need something like a CSL Elite or T-GT just to get you close to replicating a real street car, and that's only if you run the wheel at max force to achieve those numbers.
I'm on a DD2 and have the screen to show me live Nm readings which I use to do custom setups for different cars. For most street cars I keep it around 7Nm, with GR3 and up I keep it 7Nm-10Nm, and I only go above those numbers for old historic race cars.
So in actuality, with your setup and running low numbers, you are effectively running insane amounts of power steering to the point that the wheel becomes lifeless.
Advantages:
• Dependent on car, you get a side mirror and a rear mirror or screen. This is a HUGE advantage over chase cam. Bumper cam get's a rear mirror but no side mirrors. But some cockpits have no mirrors, so it's very much car dependent.
• Sense of depth to car ahead. I have more visual information regarding the car directly in front of me than chase cam, due to the angle of chase cam you lose visual on the car ahead when in tight racing.
• Sense of rotation. I used to run bumper cam exclusively until cockpit became good enough. What I found is the bumper cam creates a visual pendulum effect where you dont visually see the oversteer till a later point than with cockpit. With cockpit you are situated more to the middle of the chassis and you can visually detect under/oversteer faster than with bumper cam. With chase cam you are getting delayed info IMO.
Disadvantages:
• The lack of FOV adjustments is the biggest. This requires the user to try and fit their rig within the 80ish degree fixed setting of GTS. It's doable, but not optimal. And with FOV if you arent in the ballpark of whats' right, cockpit becomes a huge disadvantage to other views. For instance if you are seated 5ft from the screen, especially a small screen, you lose lots of visuals. Cockpit is about immersion, and if you don't have a rig setup with proper FOV then cockpit will never be a good choice.
• Lack of mirrors in some cars, leaves you blind. With Chase cam, while you dont have mirrors either, you do have a good visual of whats directly on your side. The rear visual is lacking apart from the last few feet, so you can't detect a dive bomber till it's too late.
• Not able to remove hands/wheel, some cars it's a non issue, others it's annoying.
It's great for side visuals, but really blinds you to the front/rear in races.
I think it depends. For immersion bigger is better, so long as you keep the FOV set properly. But the downside is that games have lots of extra info off to the corners which are now harder to see while racing. For instance I have a 65" that sits 31" from my face, fantastic for immersion but I can't see my radar without diverting my eyes to it. In most cars I use this isn't a issue as I prefer a car with mirrors and hate relying on radar.
I would disagree on this point. In terms of simulating the act of car racing, it's the culmination of all factors that determines the most accurate recreation of the real thing. You could have the greatest physics engine in the world, but if youre using a controller then it completely destroys the point and is strictly a game only at that point. For example, if we say take ACC with a DS4 vs GTS with a rig/CSL/DD/load cell etc, in terms of being a "simulator" GT with a rig easily bests ACC in the act of recreating the experience of driving. Now ACC with the same setup will best GT due to it being better at simulating the real thing.
The input device is actually the most critical to it being a sim/game, at least in regards to the games being discussed. Because they are all "games" in essence. Real racing is a "game" just like sports are "games". Each are simulations of said game, ACC/RFactor etc just do a better job at it.
Just get the drivehub from Cronusmax, it runs flawlessly.
DS4 def has the advantage of being physically less demanding, especially when compared to a higher end setup with a load cell. Some tracks/corners favor the speed the DS4 can go from lock to lock with tight fast transitions instantly whereas with a wheel you need to physically rotate the wheel which takes longer. And with higher force wheels, this can get tiring after a long race. Same with having to use a load cell, lap after lap hammering on a 50kg+ load cell takes it's toll, even more if you have bad knees like me lol.
Great thing is, there are many options and ways to play. Want to be casual and play with DS4 go for it, wanna dedicate tons of time and perfect the DS4 go for it, want to spend $10k plus on a rig have at it. The most important part is racing clean, how you do it is irrelevant.
It's not a matter of no power steering. The force setting is entirely dependent on the strength of the wheel being used. For instance, your T150 has around 2.5Nm of TQ...........which is nothing. Your street car has more TQ than that. Most high end sports cars are in the 6-8Nm range. To get close to replicating a real street car you need something like a CSL Elite or T-GT just to get you close to replicating a real street car, and that's only if you run the wheel at max force to achieve those numbers.
I'm on a DD2 and have the screen to show me live Nm readings which I use to do custom setups for different cars. For most street cars I keep it around 7Nm, with GR3 and up I keep it 7Nm-10Nm, and I only go above those numbers for old historic race cars.
So in actuality, with your setup and running low numbers, you are effectively running insane amounts of power steering to the point that the wheel becomes lifeless.
Cockpit isn't terrible. It has issues for sure, but it's immersive and has a few advantages over all other views, and disadvantages.
Advantages:
• Dependent on car, you get a side mirror and a rear mirror or screen. This is a HUGE advantage over chase cam. Bumper cam get's a rear mirror but no side mirrors. But some cockpits have no mirrors, so it's very much car dependent.
• Sense of depth to car ahead. I have more visual information regarding the car directly in front of me than chase cam, due to the angle of chase cam you lose visual on the car ahead when in tight racing.
• Sense of rotation. I used to run bumper cam exclusively until cockpit became good enough. What I found is the bumper cam creates a visual pendulum effect where you dont visually see the oversteer till a later point than with cockpit. With cockpit you are situated more to the middle of the chassis and you can visually detect under/oversteer faster than with bumper cam. With chase cam you are getting delayed info IMO.
Disadvantages:
• The lack of FOV adjustments is the biggest. This requires the user to try and fit their rig within the 80ish degree fixed setting of GTS. It's doable, but not optimal. And with FOV if you arent in the ballpark of whats' right, cockpit becomes a huge disadvantage to other views. For instance if you are seated 5ft from the screen, especially a small screen, you lose lots of visuals. Cockpit is about immersion, and if you don't have a rig setup with proper FOV then cockpit will never be a good choice.
• Lack of mirrors in some cars, leaves you blind. With Chase cam, while you dont have mirrors either, you do have a good visual of whats directly on your side. The rear visual is lacking apart from the last few feet, so you can't detect a dive bomber till it's too late.
• Not able to remove hands/wheel, some cars it's a non issue, others it's annoying.
It's great for side visuals, but really blinds you to the front/rear in races.
I think it depends. For immersion bigger is better, so long as you keep the FOV set properly. But the downside is that games have lots of extra info off to the corners which are now harder to see while racing. For instance I have a 65" that sits 31" from my face, fantastic for immersion but I can't see my radar without diverting my eyes to it. In most cars I use this isn't a issue as I prefer a car with mirrors and hate relying on radar.
I would disagree on this point. In terms of simulating the act of car racing, it's the culmination of all factors that determines the most accurate recreation of the real thing. You could have the greatest physics engine in the world, but if youre using a controller then it completely destroys the point and is strictly a game only at that point. For example, if we say take ACC with a DS4 vs GTS with a rig/CSL/DD/load cell etc, in terms of being a "simulator" GT with a rig easily bests ACC in the act of recreating the experience of driving. Now ACC with the same setup will best GT due to it being better at simulating the real thing.
The input device is actually the most critical to it being a sim/game, at least in regards to the games being discussed. Because they are all "games" in essence. Real racing is a "game" just like sports are "games". Each are simulations of said game, ACC/RFactor etc just do a better job at it.
Just get the drivehub from Cronusmax, it runs flawlessly.
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Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
That’s a lot of torque. I toyed with the idea of dd1/2...Do you have any comments comparing it to csl elite?
For a while I was driving so much I was a bit worried about adding torque because repetitive motion. I’m driving less now, so no more concern, and I’m also doing some rfactor2 automobilista 2. I’m really curious about your thoughts comparing dd to belt drive.
Great synopsis. I agree.
This is my issue with the modern group 1. Blinded. I have used the roof cam but I just can’t stand it, plus using look back is a complete nuisance and really not effective. With mirrors you know what’s going on in a very natural way if you run close to the 65.
I don’t drive those cars anymore. Gr c is great though.
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- 3,828
- Canada
- Kaizen-Teian
I'm pretty sure PS games are designed for the controller, then 3rd party controllers. Logic being, Sony would prefer people buy a Sony brand replacement controller than a 3rd party wheel. 100% vs a % of licensing fees.
I think the wheel compatibility has been so good that we forget they are 3rd party.
Like an Apple computer is designed for an Apple mouse/keyboard. There are better for customized use. But originally, it was designed for the stock as default.
The game doesn't get better or worse based on controller. The limits are set to whatever zeros and ones were originally programmed. It's the human interaction method that is customized to the individual which benefits immersion.
I think the wheel compatibility has been so good that we forget they are 3rd party.
Like an Apple computer is designed for an Apple mouse/keyboard. There are better for customized use. But originally, it was designed for the stock as default.
The game doesn't get better or worse based on controller. The limits are set to whatever zeros and ones were originally programmed. It's the human interaction method that is customized to the individual which benefits immersion.
- 714
- New York
- GTP-DEADPOOL
With the CSL Elite I started at 80% Force on wheel and in game 5-6 to avoid clipping. Then I upped the wheel to 100% after I acclimated to it. But then I wanted more lol. The problem is the wheel starts to blend sensations with clipping at max power and it still wasn't enough strength for me in terms of wheel weight. That and I found my corrections were too fast for the belt and I could feel it slipping in fast corrections. So those were my two main reasons for switching.
With the DD2 I now have more than enough head room for any car I want to simulate. RSR I keep around 7-8Nm to match the real thing, but front engine cars have heavier steering so I up those to 8-10Nm. I also have access to more settings such as NFR that I can tweak and get the feel right.
Mid corner I typically see constant forces between 7-10Nm but still have room for peaks without clipping. It's also far smoother than belt fed, theres no delay anymore, and I feel more comfortable taking the car right to the edge of the track than I did with the CSL, the CSL there was just that tinnnyyyy dead zone that made me hesitant to do the same. Big corrections feel better as well, the CSL was great so that's really just me nitpicking.
Yeah it's infuriating. Can't wait for VR to render this a non issue.
FPV MIC
Premium
- 4,189
- Australia
- GT-MIC
No I won't be, but I do regularly swap between both control methods due to being unfortunate enough to have rheumatoid arthritis in my fingers and wrists. If just my fingers are having a bad day I can normally get away with using my rig but I have trouble with the DS4/5. If my wrists are suffering there's no way I can use my rig but I'm okay with the controller.
And I have no idea where you're coming from with the ''thinking they are better on the pad'' part of you're comment. There's so many reasons why people use a pad (eg. my circumstances for instance,lack of space for a rig, can't justify the expense because they have a wife, three kids and a house mortgage that take priority), but I have never, ever, in my many, many years of gaming and being a member of gaming forums, heard thinking they are better on the pad as the reason
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Junkman55
(Banned)
- 470
- United States
No I won't be, but I do regularly swap between both control methods due to being unfortunate enough to have rheumatoid arthritis in my fingers and wrists. If just my fingers are having a bad day I can normally get away with using my rig but I have trouble with the DS4/5. If my wrists are suffering there's no way I can use my rig but I'm okay with the controller.
And I have no idea where you're coming from with the ''thinking they are better on the pad'' part of you're comment. There's so many reasons why people use a pad (eg. my circumstances for instance,lack of space for a rig, can't justify the expense because they have a wife, three kids and a house mortgage that take priority), but I have never, ever, in my many, many years of gaming and being a member of gaming forums, heard thinking they are better on the pad as the reason
The steering wheel spinner might Help you when those bad day are happing ,some guys put them on their car when they wanted to be cool driving with one hand. Some use them because it made parking easier with no power steering. Some people use them when arthritis made it hard to drive their car.
FPV MIC
Premium
- 4,189
- Australia
- GT-MIC
I will not sell my Sim rig and go back to Controller even if someone pays me $5000 to get rid of my Sim rig, and I will never do such a thing to sell it. I want to be completive and I am not that completive with a controller, but there are some that are better with a controller than me because they have better reflexes, and are dam good using a controller.
I am very lucky to have Sim rig and all of my other equipment in my spare bedroom, and If I did not have a spare bedroom well I just have to use a controller.
- 1,121
- Austin, TX USA
- Winnie847
I partially disagree.
It doesn't blind you to the rear at all. In fact, you can see the front end of the car behind when it's really close to you. And you still have the "lookback" feature any time you want, which gives you a full view of what's behind.
As far as your view to the front goes, you can't see the nose of the car very well, but that's no different than bumper cam. When using bumper cam (which is a very popular view) you basically have to learn over time where the nose of the car is and base your driving over that learned position, since it cannot be seen. This is no different with chase cam. You learn where it is, and adjust accordingly.
- 74
- Nord Italia
I have a whell and i use chase cam,it's just habit. many strong players use it
