Going back to controller

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by JayRS200, Dec 5, 2020.

  1. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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    "The rear visual is lacking apart from the last few feet, so you can't detect a dive bomber till it's too late."

    Apart from those few feet you are completely blind to what's going on behind you. And the lookback button is not a substitute for a mirror. By looking back you lose all information regarding the front of you. This isn't critical for determining distance on say a straight before a turn, but in the heat of battle with cars all around you, clicking the lookback button is a terrible thing to use and handicaps you from making fast decisions and avoiding contact. I'm constantly avoiding dive bombers because I use mirrors and can see them coming from car lengths back, something you cannot do with chase cam.

    With front view, I can't see the nose...... but neither can chase cam or bumper cam, or even real life. Hood cam would be the only one. The biggest difference between bumper and cockpit in terms of judging distance, is that bumper cam lacks a visual reference point. Hood and cockpit are the only ones that give a visual reference point to judge distance to the car ahead. Bumper get's a invisible wall that you have to guesstimate, and chase has no front visual relative to the rest. So in actuality they are very different due to having a visual reference point.
     
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  2. Winnie847

    Winnie847 Premium

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    Completely blind to what's behind you? Meh....not really. You can click and release the lookback button in a fraction of a second. Many of the top drivers use the lookback and look to the sides right in the middle of side by side racing and even through corners. Some of them are much more adept at it than I am. It's crazy to watch, but they do it seamlessly and without contact. Also, the mini-track-map can be used as a radar if you don't like the actual radar. You can see people going for dives and you can even tell which side of you they are on. It's zoomed out a bit more than the radar, but it can still function the same way.

    I too, have avoided many a dive-bomber, not only because I use the lookback constantly but I also use the radar and that's a pretty good indicator that stretches back beyond "a few feet." Of course, it's not as effective as a mirror, but each view has it's benefits and drawbacks. But the point stands, I can and have avoided dive bombers using only lookback and radar. I believe you could do the same if you used chase cam. You claim that you only avoid dive bombs because you use the mirror, but don't sell yourself short. Dive bombs are avoidable and predictable from any view, using the different tools provided.

    You mention that cockpit view provides a visual reference point, despite not being able to see the actual front of the car in most cases. Same with chase cam is it not? Your reference points are many. The rear of the car, the top of the car, the hood of the car that is visible, the mirrors. All are reference points the same way the cockpit is one from cockpit view. In fact, the bumper cam provides no reference point at all, an invisible wall as you put it. With chase cam there is no need to imagine an invisible wall, you just look at the rest of the car and get a pretty good idea of where the front of it is. Once you learn where it's at, it becomes normal and predictable just like anything else.

    Chase cam provides some of the most spacially aware racing you can get in this game. Seeing the sides of your car, when racing side by side is a pretty big advantage compared to most other views.
     
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  3. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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    You proved my point in your second sentence. Your need to click a lookback button means that you are completely blind UNLESS you click that button, which in turn removes your focus as to whats in front of you. A fraction of a second in T1 on opening lap is all it takes, let alone any other tight battles later on. You're arguing for a losing point. The fact is that in cockpit (a good one) I have better situational awareness than you do regarding what's in front and behind me simultaneously. I don't need to deviate my attention from what's in front of me, I use my peripheral to know what's going on in the side and rear mirrors.

    The larger track map and radar in general also dont hold a candle to a mirror. Sure you can learn to "use" it as best you can, but it doesn't rival a mirror. A mirror allows you to read your opponent, something you can't do with radar/map. And you can see further out and anticipate what's coming. With radar you are reacting later.

    I've watched the few fast guys who use chase/controller and while you might find it seamless I find it to be very disruptive. But it doesn't bother everyone, and they can "make" it work. The critical word here is "make" making something work is not optimal. If you ask any of those guys if they would prefer a actual rear view mirror you would get a resounding yes. They would prefer to keep attention on what's in front of them and minimize any distraction.

    Just go through replays and watch tense moments. View it from bumper with rear mirror and compare it to chase with radar, pause/rewatch to see how much more information you can gain from a mirror and reading a scenario from a 3 dimensional vantage point vs a 2D one.

    You missed the point, I covered many of the benefits/drawbacks of each view. And I wasn’t claiming that I can avoid dive bombs because of the mirror and that you cannot, but that the mirror makes it easier to see it coming from further out than radar. Radar is also a 2D proximity sensor, its very limited in information relative to the mirror. What you've done is a straw man, as I never claimed that one can't avoid dive bombs in other views, but that it is harder vs having a mirror. IE bumper/cockpit are the superior views in regards to rear visibility due to a mirror. That's not to say the other views don't have ways of detecting proximity, but that these bandaids are inferior.

    Some cars you can't see the front, but majority you can see enough of it, and what you can see is still a visual reference point. This is not the same as chase cam as you can only see the roof line in chase cam, you cannot see the hood of the car, roof line is the furthest forward you can see, and that is further back than cockpit/bumper can see. The point you are missing is that not all reference points are equal. In cockpit I can visually see more of the rear of my opponent and get closer than chase cam can. That's not saying that chase cam cant physically get as close, but that it loses visibility and is in a "guessing" zone while cockpit/bumper can get closer before they hit their "guessing" zone. As you stated "you just look at the rest of the car and get a pretty good idea" this is that guessing zone, of which chase cam hit's that zone before the other views do in regards to front visibility.

    The side visibility is an advantage, as I stated in the breakdown. Though it's an unrealistic one IMO. But honestly it's mostly unnecessary as I have no issue going side by side in cockpit, but everything is dependent on both drivers leaving space and not crowding the track and inviting a crash. That's not to say it isn't an advantage, just that I personally choose front/rear visibility/realism over side visibility but that's personal preference. Each has advantages/disadvantages. And rear/front visibility is the disadvantage of chase cam.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  4. fastone371

    fastone371

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    I have tried chase cam but it just looks so fricken ridiculous especially when watching a replay that I just can't use it. The car looks like its staked thru the rear bumper to the ground and the car pivots off of that stake.
     
  5. Winnie847

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    Listen, I can only go off of what you've said, and you tagged me in a reply to a comment I made many months ago. So if you're going to say something that is false, like "you are completely blind to what's behind you" or "you can't detect a divebomber until it's too late," I'm going to contest it. You are not completely blind. You said to me, that chase cam was great for side visuals but not good for seeing what's in front of you or behind you. I've argued against that, because I use chase cam and I don't have any issue knowing what's behind me and I definitely don't have any issue seeing what's in front of me....not sure why you'd say that.

    When I'm heading into a corner, I already know what's behind me and where they are because I've used the lookback several times before reaching the braking zone. If anyone is close enough to me to warrant modifying my lines, they are within the radar and I don't have to use the lookback mid-corner. If they send it from way back, they will enter my radar quickly and I still have time to avoid. Do I have as much time to avoid as you would with a mirror? No, but I never claimed I did, just that I too have the ability to avoid divebombs using chase cam. You also said before the radar only covers a few feet, but I can see between 2-3 cars length behind me with the radar. How many feet is that? 20? 25? More than a few for sure. Again, I can only respond to the language you actually use, and what you said was incorrect.

    In theory, some of what you're saying about removing your focus is true. But I'm here telling you that in practice it's not. Maybe if you were to try using chase cam you'd lose your focus by hitting the lookback button, because you're not used to it. But me and many others who are used to it, don't seem to have any issue. No focus lost. A split second is enough to see where cars are and we make it through the corners just fine. I could say the same thing about you looking at the mirror, causing you to lose your focus, but I didn't say that because I know better than that. You are used to using the mirror, and I am not. I would probably lose focus when I first tried to use the mirror, but later I would get good at it, the same way you'd get good at chase cam if you tried. But if I were to use that angle, I easily could....if someone is close enough to me that I need to worry about them going for a move, they will likely be in my radar. If they aren't, why would I be looking back at them? Which begs the question, why are you looking in your mirror at cars who aren't close enough to you? Doesn't it cause you to lose focus? Shouldn't racing drivers be looking ahead and not at the cars behind them? Again, this goes both ways. I lose no more focus using the lookback button than you do actually looking in your mirror.

    I never once claimed that the track map or radar or anything was as good as the mirror. If you read my comments back you'll see that. I claimed that each view has it's benefits and drawbacks. For example, in cockpit view, you can't see what's on the sides of you, which I would argue is more important for clean, no-contact racing than what's in front of or behind you, which can be seen from all views.

    You find watching it to be very disruptive? Is that supposed to somehow influence whether or not the user actually finds it disruptive? When I say it seems seamless, I don't mean it's seamless to watch, I mean that these guys take the corners side-by-side seamlessly while using lookback and looking side to side. Their races are seamless. Their racecraft is seamless. Their overtaking is seamless. It really doesn't matter how it looks to you, especially since you aren't the one using it. I wouldn't expect it to be seamless to you, somebody who has not practiced using these methods. Not to mention that the lookback and look to the side features are used by drivers in all views, not only chase cam. Would chase cam users prefer the option of a mirror? Probably so. But why don't they just change to bumper cam if it's such a disadvantage not having one? Why are there world tour drivers using chase cam despite not having a mirror? Why do some use hood cam without a mirror? It must not be as big of a handicap as you make it out to be.

    I didn't miss any point. I disagreed with what you said. You literally said that you avoid divebombs BECAUSE you use the mirror and that you can see them coming from car's lengths back, "something that I cannot do with chase cam." I'm once again telling you that I can see them coming from multiple car lengths back. 2-3 cars can fit in my radar, and track map accounts for more distance if you need it. In this recent comment, you amended that claim by saying the mirror makes it easier, but that's not what you originally said. Once again, I can only respond to the language you use. I haven't used a straw man, I've just responded to the words you've used. You are the one who has now brought up superior/inferior and that's an avenue I have not taken. That's on you. Yes, I'll agree AGAIN, that the mirror is the better way to see behind you, but in practice, it's possible to race just as clean and be just as aware using chase cam, radar and the lookback button. But since you feel the need to say bumper and cockpit are superior in regards to rear visibility....I'll go ahead and say chase cam is superior in regards to side-by-side awareness.

    This is all just semantics. You are allowing yourself comparisons that you aren't allowing me. You can see the hood in chase cam in some cases. There are also 2 different chase cam views, closer and further. You can also change the way the camera pivots as you corner, allowing yourself to see the front of the car while turning. I don't expect you to know that since you don't use it, but it's a feature that exists. Some cockpit views don't allow you to see the front or hood of the car, some do, which you've admitted. So by admission, your claims are only partly true. Other views, such as bumper, show no parts of the car, so it's 100% guessing. At least in chase cam you can actually see the car, so the guesswork is still there, but minimized. I never said all reference points were equal, but a reference point is a reference point. If it's on the car, or on the HUD, or whatever, it makes no difference as long as it's constant. That's what a reference point is, a constant. And I think maybe you're misunderstanding what a reference point is. If you are using hood cam, you can see the actual front of the car. So that is not a reference point, that is the actual point. A reference point would be some OTHER point relative to the point you are attempting to measure distance from. So If I can see the roof of the car, or the hood of the car but I can't see the actual front bumper....that's a reference point. If you can see the bumper, that's not a reference point. So unless we are talking about hood cam, they are all reference points. Even the rear bumper of a car is a reference point.

    It matters not if it's unrealistic. That's not what this discussion is about. And here, when you say "I have no issue going side by side in cockpit" you're allowing yourself a way around discussing the weaknesses of your own view, while attacking the very weaknesses of mine, disallowing my claim that I have no problem with front/rear awareness using chase cam. You've simply written off the single most glaring weakness of the view you claim to be superior because you don't have an issue functioning that way. Interesting. You pointed to the logical fallacy of straw man earlier, but are you aware which fallacy you're using here? Several. I'll say it again...in theory, much of what you're saying is true, but in practice it's not. Many people use chase cam, many of whom are very fast, many are very clean and have no issues racing side by side. So by your own logic, your claims about front/rear awareness are rendered moot the same way you claim you do just fine with side-by-side awareness when using cockpit....because I have no issue detecting what's in front of or behind me. See how that goes both ways?

    Looking ridiculous and being useful for close, clean racing are two different things. The pivoting can be changed in the settings. I'm not really interested in chase cam because it's aesthetically pleasing, it's just the view that I grew accustomed to and it works just fine for me and many others.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  6. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    This is my dog that jogs with me. 170 lb Pressa that can run all day long. https://animalso.com/breeds/presa-canario/
    Unfortunately I fractured my wrist Thursday night tripping on his ball in my back yard. I'm out of commission for at least 3 weeks. Couldn't get in to see my Dr.until today due to Covid crap. 20201217_132743.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  7. RacingGrandpa

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    I'll add I drive in bumper ms use the HUD as reference point.
    I use the chase view when analysing, not my own and others replay because the chase view with all game info on gives the best info to learn from.
    I can't drive like that though.
    I also like cockpit for qualifying but since I can't adjust the position enough to use the mirrors without using the right stick I won't use it in race.
     
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  8. Groundfish

    Groundfish

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    In terms of side view bumper has lowest visibility. Bumper offers the virtual mirror though which is a big advantage.
    Bumper and cockpit are pretty similar in some ways but cockpits like the Megane offer more side vision than bumper-if seat is back also more than roof. But the key is the interior AND side mirrors.
    0B9042B5-B103-49CA-8B7F-1BE47BAEE058.png
    Bumper sees ahead and nothing to sides but has that virtual mirror.

    727EB257-0303-43C6-8A90-F1F7F2CCEC74.png 18CA4B1B-8710-46E2-9A98-76A4EE0E28A5.png 6B755B15-42D9-4FC3-A6B8-28C1E4CB84A7.png

    These photos are from the stationary Megane at Seaside, changing views, cockpit is set all the way back and height 0.
    In cockpit you are always aware forward and back, even if it’s not your main focus because the mirrors are in your peripheral. They are also closer to your focused attention during racing.
    Further, in cockpit the car is large so you can really notice immediately the effects of micro inputs on rotation. Racing closer to the car in front is easy in this view.
    Again though I don’t think cockpit is viable on a small tv. I don’t think it will work right on gts unless you set up close to a large screen.
    For racing games imo the larger the screen the better. Regardless of chosen view. It’s just going to be more difficult to hit the nice lines if you’re using a screen the size of most phones vs a big screen tv.
    I’m good with cockpit view, but I literally had to get a big tv and build a table with shelf and custom rig to use it in gts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  9. Winnie847

    Winnie847 Premium

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    yeah, I didn't really mean for it to get into a pissing contest about views. I just believe that they are all equal in a roundabout way.

    Chase cam is great for awareness on all sides of the car, the front bumper being the weakest. But bumper cam has the same drawback, perhaps worse because you can't use any physical part of the car as a reference point, you have to use the HUD.

    Bumper cam is great because of the mirror, and I suppose the ability to see the apex since you're very close to it...unless of course another car is in the way. But it's weakness is side-by-side awareness.

    Hood cam is also great for hitting the apexes, without many of the obstructions bumper cam would allow. Side-by-side awareness is also a problem, but maybe it's less of an issue than with bumper cam. Seeing directly behind you is also an issue with hood cam compared to chase cam, which allows you to see the front of the car following behind.

    Cockpit view can be great in some cars and can be terrible in others. My biggest issue is not being able to see the apexes in some cars. I must admit though, I haven't spent a lot of time in cockpit view because every time I do I just dislike it aesthetically and technically. Also seeing the steering wheel throws me off a bit. Nothing I couldn't get used to I'm sure, but I like where I'm at currently with chase cam.

    All views can utilize look back, or side view to great benefit.

    I think the biggest challenge of chase cam is learning how to control the car with proper steering lock. It's easy to catch yourself driving as if you were behind the car and holding lock for too long exiting corners. It's unnatural at first, your instincts tell you to hold the steering angle for longer than you need to. Once you overcome that and learn to start releasing steering lock before your brain wants you to, everything else falls into place.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  10. Groundfish

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    Try a Toyota gr1 loool unusable! Many cars are unusable in cockpit. To me it really seems like there’s certain cars the game “wants” cockpit people to use.
    The Toyota sfr literally has no cockpit view.
    My view started bumper. Then I saw Fraga using roof...I switched to roof...Then started dabbling in cockpit when racing done guys from work.
    My tv was a ten year old 40. It was extremely disorienting at first but made it funny when racing my coworkers. I started using it a bit more, and after breaking that old tv going to a modern bigger one, and getting the wheelbase close and eyes centered to the target in the video settings assistant it’s been great.
    What was weird was all that time in game like almost two years of not having my eyes centered.
    If your eyes are below center everything looks uphill, above everything seems flat...
    Funny how a person like me who just turns on a game and starts playing has to learn the hard way about these details.
    I swear after I made my tv stand and rig and hopped into a familiar car track combo the difference was astonishing!
    But I made cockpit work even from a less optimal positioning of stuff...
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  11. NevilleNobody

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    So took the t150 out after giving up 6 months ago. PS4 now in the basement so I can use a proper firm chair etc, set up felt ok.

    Group 4 WRX at ring Gp as we were just there and it was the car I was fastest with. I ran a 2.03.9 in qualy.

    I start driving and take it real easy, 2.08, just getting a feel, 2.07...... then as i start to hustle even a tiny bit, all the terrible memories came back. The steering is sooooooooo wrong. Even if I set the ratio to its tightest rate, still SO MUCH PLAY in the steering, almost like a lag. If I try slow and smooth it understeer, apply bit more lock and i take the corner ok but the car feels floaty and recentering is so slow. I am always correcting, car feels like an 80s buick. In have driven real cars for 25 years, i have some limited track time in club cars, and nothing feels this....
    Sloppy.

    It's so disconnected, I can't attack a corner, have zero confidence. I don't know if it's me or the wheel but best I did after 25 laps was a 2.04.9. Picked up the controller and within 3 laps did a 2.03.5. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  12. UnkaD

    UnkaD

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    I feel like what you describe is because of the standard chase settings, but correct me if I'm wrong. Pretty much out of the box the camera is completely fixed to the car, so any small rotaion of the car causes the camera to swing violently since it's so far from the pivot point. You can change the settings to loosen the connection between car and camera so the car moves more freely while the camera remains smooth and moves gradually, like in the old PS1 games.

    There is an issue, though, where uou have to reset your camera settings everytime you restart the game because they revert each play session even though it shows the settings as you left them.
     
  13. Pigems

    Pigems Premium

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    It’s not something that will just “click” over an evening or even 10. It’s gonna takes weeks/months of dedicated practice to get used to the wheel and pick up on the cues the game is giving you. It’s just a matter of sticking with it long enough to get used to it. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  14. fastone371

    fastone371

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    The thing that amazes me is that I normally use roof cam and sometimes bumper (but I hate that you can see nothing in front of you when behind another car, thats why I quit using bumper) but when I try cockpit in qualifying I am usually quicker straight away than with roof cam. I think I should probably learn to race in cockpit view.
     
  15. Johnnn

    Johnnn

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    Hard to say what is wrong but GT has highly assisted gamepad controls and are very easy to use. So it's not a surprise but your bad FFB experience doesn't sound good. I don't know I haven't tried GTS with a wheel but old GT were nothing special to enjoy. Don't know actual situation.
     
  16. NevilleNobody

    NevilleNobody

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    Its just so loose, wobbly even. Like there are marbles between the wheel and the car.
     
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  17. Pigems

    Pigems Premium

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    What torque and sensitivity setting are you using with the wheel? Try 3 Torque and 20 Sens, if you’re not on that already.
     
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  18. NevilleNobody

    NevilleNobody

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    Yeah too much torque was throwing me off so i set it to low torque, high sensitivity, not sure of the numbers exactly.
     
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  19. Winnie847

    Winnie847 Premium

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    just for reference, it took me something like 2 weeks of adjusting to the wheel to match my DS4 times....and this is when I was a B-rated driver still learning things and getting up to speed. So if you've already been playing for awhile and are an A-rated driver or above, it could take longer. It was actually pretty frustrating at first and I wondered if I had made a mistake spending money on a wheel. Turns out....it was a great investment.

    Having said that, I'm not ruling out there could be a hardware or settings issue with your wheel. I use a T300 GT, but in general, low torque and high sensitivity is the way to go for most people. My torque is on 3 or 4 and sensitivity on 9.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  20. NevilleNobody

    NevilleNobody

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    I dont know if it's a hardware issue or just a) been driving real cars too long and/or b) got used to the ds4.

    Brakes are an issue, feel no travel at all. There is lift off oversteer too that is not there on the pad.

    Steering is a case of not enough, not enough, not enough then wham too much. Then correct it and its like trying to drive a 70s corvette.
     
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  21. Pigems

    Pigems Premium

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    Are you using 2 feet to drive or just one, two is the best way to go if now. Do you pedals have that rubber brake mod in them? The brakes are a bit weird to get used, it will take some time to adjust to the travel. I ended up getting stiffer replacement springs for my pedals and it helped a lot. Also, are you mainly braking in a straight line or trail braking? Trail braking is a huge advantage in GTS if you can get it down. :)

    I’d be more than happy to jump into a lobby with you some night, to see if I can help you out a bit with getting used to the wheel. Just shoot me a message if your interested and we’ll set something up. :cheers:
     
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  22. Groundfish

    Groundfish

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    I think to reset anything adjustable to default.
    Especially wheel rotation amount.
    Never used that wheel tho.
    Sounds maybe weird to say but gr4 is difficult on wheel at first. Maybe try a Miata or 86.
    The inputs you use on pad you can forget on wheel.
    Change views too.
     
  23. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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    Then you didn't read everything I said. Nothing I said was false. Outside of the few feet you can see in chase cam and radar you are blind to what is going on behind you UNLESS you click the lookback button.

    Nothing about that statement was false, it's 100% FACT and is demonstratable as well.

    You may THINK you don't have less information in front/behind, but reality says differently. We can literally look at each view and show how you are wrong. Sure you can see, but you have less visual information, and with the rear you have far less information. This isn't really debatable. You even stated "It also allows you to see better on the sides of your car" yet you acknowledge the fact that it has less front/rear visibility. You can't have it both ways.


    You continue to miss the point. The fact that you have to use the lookback at all proves my point. And having to glance over to the corner of the screen for radar is also less efficient than a rear mirror. How can what I said be incorrect when you literally just agreed with me that you have less time to avoid than I do with a mirror. Ok maybe radar is more than a few feet, but now youre just getting into nitpicking over the actual measurable distance which is a red herring and completely avoids the point that was being made in that the mirror has far more information and from further back.

    I really don't see why you are trying to argue it further when you admit that I'm right. Bumper/cockpit have superior front/rear spatial awareness vs chase. That was the point, and you've agreed with that point. Trying to say "it's more than a few feet" is a silly argument when the end result is the same, you have less visibility.


    I'm here to tell you that in practice, it is. It's not theory. You would fair better by removing as many distractions as possible and in turn improve reaction time. This is really basic fundamentals of any race school/program.

    You missed the point again though, yes you've adapted and "made" it work for you, but this is not optimal. Will you not just admit that a virtual rear mirror in chase cam would benefit you. Because that's the bottomline. You can't with a straight face say you prefer not to have a rear mirror.

    For one the radar is poorly placed and requires shifting focus away from what's in front of you. Mirrors are placed right in your primary FOV and can be seen while maintaining eyes on whats ahead. And nice straw man regarding mirrors and being close enough. Fact is a divebomber can be anticipated via the mirror before they even register on the radar. And racing drivers have mirrors for a reason, so your comment regarding looking ahead was ignorant.

    Fact is you do lose more focus with the lookback button vs me using a mirror. My mirror is placed within my peripheral vision, I don't have to look away from the car in front of me to use the mirror. YOU have to physically click a lookback button which removes all visual information from in front of you. Now this may only be for a fraction of a second, but the fact that you lost all forward visuals at all proves my point. Wether or not you think this is "significant" is irrelevant, the fact is you have less visual information. How much focus is lost is irrelevant to the discussion.



    You brought up track map/radar in your defense. You opened that can of worms yourself. And if you had read my comment you would have seen that i went over the benefits/drawbacks of each view and have covered everything you stated already. But for some reason you want to defend Chase view to the death rather than acknowledge it's drawbacks.

    Actually in cockpit view you can see to the sides of you. Is it as much as chase cam? No. And I would completely disagree regarding side information having greater importance. Spatial awareness is a culmination of all information, not a singular aspect.


    You posted that example regarding the lookback and stated that you don't find it disruptive. Is that supposed to somehow influence whether or not the user actually finds it disruptive? See that, I used your own argument against you to demonstrate the hypocrisy of your statement. You can't criticize me for weighing in on your own discussion regarding the lookback function being/not being disruptive.

    Why do we have constant complaints of people crashing? "Use your radar!!" etc. Lack of information. Your argument is invalid. The notion that "well because these guys run it, it must not be a issue". When in reality it is a issue they have learned to live with . And per your own admittance "Would chase cam users prefer the option of a mirror? Probably so" your argument falls apart. Why do some still use chase cam? Old habits die hard. But the vast majority, and usually the victors, use bumper with a rear mirror. That's all in the personal preference aspect which is completely separate from a analytical discussion of which view has more visual information. You're conflating two different things.

    You're argument is entirely reliant on anecdotes, which is why it fails.


    You missed the context of what was said. Go read it again, I was clearly discussing how a mirror can see further back than radar/map. So yes, you did miss the point.

    And you can't see 2-3 cars lengthwise on radar. 2 at best. And even that's delayed and reacting more than anticipating. And regarding the mirror making it easier, that is what I said. Go read the entire comment that was made. You missed it not me.

    You need a refresher on what a straw man is then. " You claim that you only avoid dive bombs because you use the mirror" because that was a straw man, you didn't respond with the words I used, you took words out of context and spun them. That's a straw man.

    And were not discussing what's possible. We all know that people can learn to work with less information and making things work. That's not the discussion. The discussion was the limitations of the view, not if one can live without it. Again, conflating two different things.

    And I would agree that chase came is superior in regards to side by side visibility, but that cockpit/bumper are superior in regards to both front/rear visibility, not just rear.

    You're the one with the semantics. And where did I allow myself comparisons but not yours?? I acknowledged your point and expanded. The topic was about visibility, you brought up workarounds, I didn’t deny there utility, I simply pointed out the fact that they workarounds and not on topic.

    99% of the time you can't see the hood. So youre really grasping at straws with that claim. And I've tried chase cam and know how mid corner you can see for a fraction of a second the corner of the front of the car........but why are you staring at a off angle to the corner of the car instead of up ahead. Do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds? It also contradicts the need for a reference point to be fixed, the camera angle changing in the turn means it's not a fixed point per the camera movement ;)

    And again, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Your comment that my claims are only partly true ignores the rest of the comment. I mentioned that while some cockpits cant see the very front of the hood, they still have a direct line of sight to the back of the car behind them and have a reference point that is further forward than chase cam. This applies to all cockpits, all of them offer greater frontal view. If you had read my comment you would have seen that very clearly.

    I never claimed that you said all reference points were equal, I clearly stated that you missed MY point that not all reference points are equal. You keep getting yourself mixed up on context. Further that by your odd rambling about them all being reference points.....did you not read anything I wrote??? I said they are all reference points, but not equal......missed the point again.

    You need to go work on your definition of reference point as well. The front bumper IS a reference point. Just as the roof/hood are also reference points. The bumper is a reference point relative to anything ahead of you that you are trying to gauge the distance of. The only difference is that with views that can't see the bumper you are using a different reference point to guess the distance remaining based on a rough idea of distance from roof to bumper and in turn to the object ahead. On one hand you are gauging the roof to the object ahead, on the other you are using the roof to guess the distance to the bumper and in turn the car ahead, depends on how you want to look at it. All are reference points to gauge distance though. But I already covered this.

    "The exact position of an object is the separation between the object and the reference point" the object being the back of the car ahead or anything at all, and the reference point being any fixed point on the car that I can use to assess the distance. No, it's you who has misunderstood what a reference point is, and contradicted yourself on top of it. Because you can't claim the roof is a reference point but the bumper is not. They both are.

    And seriously, did you completely skim everything I said? You are literally just repeating my arguments as if they are your own. 90% of what you just said was what I said...... so what is your point?



    It doesn't matter if it's realistic, that was simply stated as a opinion. We are free to add opinions are we not?

    The discussion was about visibility, you derailed it with opinions regarding ways to work around the problem of your view. That's not what the discussion was about, so it was you who went off topic. And your claim that I disallowed your claims is disingenuous. I acknowledged your points and how they werent the point of the discussion, I added the side by side as an example, that sure I can make it work but it is a disadvantage. You keep missing the point.

    I don't think you understand fallacies very well then, as none of them were present. But I invite you to showcase them. I could see the attempt to claim the mention of realism as a red herring but a red herring would be if I avoided the actual discussion, that was merely a sidebar moment. But the claim of several, nah. And you even committed another straw man.

    "So by your own logic, your claims about front/rear awareness are rendered moot the same way you claim you do just fine with side-by-side awareness when using cockpit....because I have no issue detecting what's in front of or behind me."

    This was yet another straw man. The topic wasn't about workarounds/adapting to limitations. The discussion was about ACTUAL visibility. You've completely gone off topic in your defense.

    And I didn't write off the weakness of side visibility. Go back and reread everything as I clearly discussed it as an disadvantage, and that I chose front/rear visibility over side as a trade off. And yes I see how it goes both ways, I literally discussed how it goes both ways multiple times...... how on earth did you miss that? I mean youve missed a lot, so it's not surprising.

    Heres the key, the discussion was in regards to visibility of each view. I pointed out that relative to bumper/cockpit with a rear mirror, chase came is "blind" by comparison, to which you began the semantics despite decrying them later. Whether or not youve learned to work around this limitation is irrelevant.

    Here's an example for you. To show how your logic is flawed.

    1994 Spanish GP. Schuey finished 2nd despite being stuck in 5th gear the whole race. By your logic he doesn't need the other gears because he made it work. Overcoming adversity doesn't remove the adversity from being a problem. Learning to drive without mirrors is the same thing, though not as extreme, sure guys can overcome the problem via workarounds, but the problem/limitation still exists.

    I never said guys with chase cam can’t race close/clean etc. Not sure why you keep bringing that up. Your focus is completely off topic.


    Just went and did a test run as well, but with another car to see how close I could get to the other car while retaining positional visibility. In chase cam you enter a guessing zone which is a good 5-6ft. With bumper/cockpit that drops to maybe 1ft before you have to guess if you're too close. That extra visibility IMO is invaluable. Sure chase cam can get as close, but they are guessing the distance vs actually seeing the distance. You can see in the pics how you lose almost all visibility due to the angle, the roof is blocking the view.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  24. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    3,915
    @NevilleNobody
    Hope you were not offended by my suggestion to run a slower car.
    I just remember from my learning (albeit I learned in this game on wheel) that gr4/3 things were very tough for me personally at first.
    Also re view, that I said because it’s my thinking that when you take a player like yourself who is fast on pad, then SAME VIEW they try to learn wheel the frustration level must be very very high.
    Seeing the same track like GP where you and I have had great battles and seeing it all look the same but losing seconds must be maddening!
    My idea was switch views to have some psychological effect and limit the frustration.
    I’d take @Pigems up on his offer.
    Things like this imo are best dealt with in person second best in direct conversation Internet means more will be lost in translation.
    My only idea re driving gr3/4 is abs default always brake 100 percent and start turning before coming off brake.
    The biggest key on the gr3/4 imo is coordinating coming off brake and turning into apex. Exits are easy if you can do that.
    Either way good luck. I realized just now looking back at my previous post it could be easily misconstrued...
    The one thing I’d be a stickler on is rotation degrees in GTS. I’d leave it alone!
    Imo unless you are an expert at ffb wheel leave it alone. Default rotation in gts is perfect on every car.
    In game ffb I’ve used 3-10 4-10 5 1 and right now 4-4 or 5-5. My wheels a different one tho.
    I like default lol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  25. NevilleNobody

    NevilleNobody

    Messages:
    1,724
    Offended? Ha! Nah I am just comfortable with some downforce and the wrx has a shed load of grip even without tc.

    Pages I may take you up on that offer if I can find the time!!
     
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  26. Winnie847

    Winnie847 Premium

    Messages:
    994
    Location:
    United States
    False claim #1 & #2: "apart from the last few feet." You can see a few feet behind you in chase cam, and much more than a few feet in the radar. You admitted this to be a false claim, then claimed it didn't really matter that you made the false claim.

    False claim #3: "you can't detect a dive bomber until it's too late." False because it's subjective. I can detect dive bombers using chase cam. Do it all the time.

    False claim #4 & #5: again, more than a few feet visible in the radar. I said 2-3 car lengths. You said 2 at most, which means I have made an accurate claim. "Completely blind to what's behind you." Not true. I can see a few feet, and much more than a few feet using the radar. This means I am not completely blind to what's behind me. Perhaps our definitions of "completely blind" differ? Not sure how that could be, but perhaps.

    Never said it was. I acknowledged that the mirror is better. This is bordering on what a straw man is, that thing you like to talk about so much. Straw man is not necessarily taking something out of context as you claimed, it's actually arguing against a position that was never made.

    Here's that thing you claim you didn't say. I too can see divebombers coming from car lengths back. Remember when you acknowledged that the radar shows 2 car lengths? I could say "I'm constantly avoiding dive bombers because I use radar and can see them coming from car lengths back, something you can do from any view" and I'd be 100% correct.

    this part is just a misunderstanding I suppose. I am saying that the front bumper is the point whose exact location you are trying to determine. You can see the rear of the car ahead, so you know how far it is. When I'm claiming that any point of the car is a reference point, I am saying that it's in reference to the front bumper of my own car, not to the rear of the car I'm following. I can see the car ahead, so the only thing I don't know is where the bumper is...so I use a reference point to determine that.

    I'm trying to figure out the same thing. What's your point? This all started by you tagging me and saying chase cam renders you completely blind to the front and rear. I said it does not. You expanded and said much of what I've captioned above....several false claims. I pointed out they were false...and here we are. I never said any view was superior to the other, I was simply disagreeing that you are "completely blind" and that you can only see "a few feet" behind you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  27. Pigems

    Pigems Premium

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Canada
    I just like bumper cam for the rear view mirror, I can see behind me without having to hit the look back button. I also prefer my radar in the center, both should at least be options in the other views. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  28. fisheye

    fisheye

    Messages:
    347
    With a hand held controller you can lean into the corners for more realism. I caught my wife doing that when she plays Wreckfest and GT Sport.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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  29. Redneckchef

    Redneckchef Premium

    Messages:
    1,936
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Umm, I dont know anyone on a controller who doesnt have the lean. And waving the hands to push it helps as well.
    I refuse to hear opinions otherwise. Been doing it for 25 years, ain't stopping now.
     
  30. fisheye

    fisheye

    Messages:
    347
    OK... I admit it. I lean into corners too. That might explain why my coffee table dumped the contents onto the floor when I tried out my T150 clamped down on it.