Going for a gap OR divebomb?

Your opinion

  • Going for the gap

    Votes: 6 5.1%

  • Divebomb

    Votes: 62 53.0%

  • Racing incident

    Votes: 21 17.9%

  • Racing incident (avoidable/causing a collision)

    Votes: 28 23.9%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Spongeinside

Spongeinside

1,504
Netherlands
The Netherlands
Spongeinside
I need a unbiased objective opinion, below is a short video of a incident in a lobby race. I am driving the Megane and the other driver is in the Supra.

Please watch first before reading my opinion below it.



In my opinion it was a clear divebomb. He came from too big a distance back to go for a gap that was closed(/not there).

I don’t want to name and shame this person, I never had issues in the past (although many others have), but posting this is mainly the result of the ‘argument’ we had after the race. He argued that ”divebombing isn’t illegal and that Senna did it aswell and he was the greatest driver ever and was never punished for his divebombing actions”.

Apparently that’s a valid reason “Senna did it too, so it’s okay”... my mind was blown...

I want to know what you think, if I turn out to be the one a fault, I’ll offer him my apologies the next time I see him in a lobby.
 
Racing incident.

He hits the brake marker where he ought, makes the choice to go left early, is hard on the brakes and gets it stopped adequately before the apex:

upload_2020-2-8_18-52-16.png


And you start to turn in more than half a second later:

upload_2020-2-8_18-53-56.png


By which time he's got not all that much hope of avoiding you, especially as his front-right tyre is locked up:

upload_2020-2-8_18-55-28.png


In fact, it's only been 1.7s since he made the choice to go left:

upload_2020-2-8_18-56-49.png


I'm not entirely sure what he could have done to avoid this collision. Though obviously if he's quoting Senna to defend his actions, he's a tossrag.
 
I'm a huge fan of Senna but using that as an excuse is an invalid argument. Senna wouldn't get away with a number of things he did if he was racing today.

Anyway, just to play devil's advocate here, it does look like the lead car slows too much for the corner. The angle the car is at before the impact looks unusual for that corner. You normally take a deeper line before cutting back for the 2nd apex of the hairpin.

I might be wrong, but if that is the case it may have caught out the driver behind. If I'm wrong, it's a dirty dive bomb.

EDIT As @Famine says, he hit his brake marker perfectly which does make the collision look really odd. It does seem that the lead car overslows the car before turning in towards the apex.
 
It's a tricky one. Yes, he has come from a long way back, but when you see it from his point of view, he looks to have braked and slowed in a perfectly normal way, and his speed at the apex looks perfectly reasonable. So from his perspective, he's just driven that bit of track in a normal way, and has found you going inexplicably slowly in front of him. His response to that should have been to steer right, not left, as covered in the instructional video everyone has to watch before taking part in sport mode. But if you'd done that in front of me I'd have seen it as a deliberate attempt to take me out, as you look to have slowed excessively, and are taking what looks like a weird tight line that isn't optimal for the complex of two corners. I'd still have taken myself out by turning right not left, but I'd have looked at the replay afterwards to see if you were consistently doing that sort of thing to people, rather than it being a one off. Having said that, I've just looked up your DR, and at 7k you have to expect weird lines like that, so I'd see it as incompetence rather than malice. If you were at 40k+, I'd be seeing it as pretty certain that it was a deliberate attempt to take out the car behind.
 
I’m not very good at taking that corner and not a very fast driver in general, but I am a very fair one, sometimes too fair, going out of my way not to hinder other people, even when I am in full right to be there. I did go in probably slower that most others would, most likely because of lacking skill.

I can share the full replay of the race if anyone is interested, it’ll mostly show my lack of skill and taking that corner in different ways pretty much every lap.

I watched the video and replay a few times and starting to lean to unintentional divebomb / racing accident. But as I stated before, he still came from a long way, too long to be going for the nonexistent gap, and I still stand by that.

Unfortunately I didn’t take any screenshots or save a video of the argument we had in the chat afterwards.
 
Basically, at 7k, that sort of thing is bound to happen, because everyone is losing several seconds over the entire lap compared to how fast it can be driven, but people will vary a lot in how well they take individual corners. So when two drivers are racing head to head, they'll often each see the other as going weirdly slowly through some corners, and might find it hard to avoid hitting the car in front. When you see a top driver whose SR has dropped a bit so they're up against lower rated drivers, they are well aware of this, but even though they're well aware of it, they still typically get taken by surprise by just how slowly the car in front of them goes at some point, and they'll have some collisions.
 
Spongeinside
I watched the video and replay a few times and starting to lean to unintentional divebomb / racing accident. But as I stated before, he still came from a long way, too long to be going for the nonexistent gap, and I still stand by that.
Click to expand...

He probably had no intention of going for the gap though. He braked to take the corner normally and follow you through. He then finds your car crawling through the apex and its too late to do anything about it.

I'm beginning to feel like my hunch is right. Its not a divebomb if a car goes that slowly into a corner as its impossible to anticipate.

It would be interesting to see the full race.

I'M ALL ABOUT THE EDITS As @breeminator says, with very different driver ratings on the same track these kind of things are bound to happen.
 
I think this one depends on what line you use at the final corner, if you treat it as one corner with a wide arc (a wider line but carrying more speed) between the two apexes the Supra does nothing wrong, the Megane looks like it is going for the 2 corners, taking a tight line between both apexes (less distance but a lot less speed onto the front straight). Somebody has got it badly wrong but it's hard to say who, one being spun and another taking a penalty would be fair enough.

That famous Senna quote only exists because Jackie Stewart (fairly) suggested he was a dirty driver for the incident with Prost at T1 Suzuka. It's not a good excuse (especially when there is a 50% chance you're totally innocent).
 
Spongeinside
I need a unbiased objective opinion, below is a short video of a incident in a lobby race. I am driving the Megane and the other driver is in the Supra.

Please watch first before reading my opinion below it.



In my opinion it was a clear divebomb. He came from too big a distance back to go for a gap that was closed(/not there).

I don’t want to name and shame this person, I never had issues in the past (although many others have), but posting this is mainly the result of the ‘argument’ we had after the race. He argued that ”divebombing isn’t illegal and that Senna did it aswell and he was the greatest driver ever and was never punished for his divebombing actions”.

Apparently that’s a valid reason “Senna did it too, so it’s okay”... my mind was blown...

I want to know what you think, if I turn out to be the one a fault, I’ll offer him my apologies the next time I see him in a lobby.
Click to expand...


This is a divebomb. A mild one but that dude misjudged his skills and brakes.

He is not half up on your side, you are turning into the corner as he proceeded to force his way into a place where he has no right to be.

It's not up to you to provide space to someone behind you or to figure out if he uses a special line through each corner. He has to find a clean way around you or stay behind.

The rules are in my signature
 
kilesa4568
Right or wrong lines aside, committing to the inside of the Megane from so far back is the deciding factor for me. Plenty of time to back out of it but they chose to do it anyway.
Click to expand...

I take that point but the Supra is hard on the brakes all the way to the apex. Unless they were going too fast, and I don't think they were because they braked in the right place, there's no backing out of that.

I don't think the poll has all the relevant possibilities as I don't think either is correct. They were just following a normal line through the corner and came upon an unexpectedly slow moving car.
 
I added 2 more poll options;
- racing incident
- racing incident (avoidable/causing a collision)

Also you can change your vote if you feel either of the new options are better representing your opinion.
 
In my opinion it is "avoidable contact", since the Toyota Supra driver has rammed you, thus causing your car to spin off-track.
 
You were in front & turning into the corner well before he hit you, so you had the corner rights. It's a clear cut case of divebombing IMHO. Regardless of whether it was intentional or not, the result was the same. People who drive like that, or think that driving like that is acceptable, go straight on my PSN block list.
 
kilesa4568
Right or wrong lines aside, committing to the inside of the Megane from so far back is the deciding factor for me. Plenty of time to back out of it but they chose to do it anyway.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Supra should have turned right not left. But it's still basically a brake check by the Megane, it's not like driving on the road where you're expected to leave a two second gap to be able to stop if the car in front stops. You simply can't race if you always leave a big enough gap to the car in front to cope with them parking the car on the track in front of you. So the Supra could have avoided the incident by binning it off to the outside, but the Megane would then deserve a penalty for taking out the Supra.
 
breeminator
Yes, the Supra should have turned right not left. But it's still basically a brake check by the Megane, it's not like driving on the road where you're expected to leave a two second gap to be able to stop if the car in front stops. You simply can't race if you always leave a big enough gap to the car in front to cope with them parking the car on the track in front of you. So the Supra could have avoided the incident by binning it off to the outside, but the Megane would then deserve a penalty for taking out the Supra.
Click to expand...
Thats just not how it works - The Megane has done nothing “illegal to be where it is” all contact and collision is therefore on the attacking car to avoid - this isn't to say that this is a divebomb by the Supra, it is to say that the contact was their’s too avoid.

The Supra is not alongside in the braking zone.
The Supra is not alongside at turn in.
It only achieves any overlap at the apex at which point its nose should not have been there.
 
rono_thomas
Thats just not how it works - The Megane has done nothing “illegal to be where it is” all contact and collision is therefore on the attacking car to avoid - this isn't to say that this is a divebomb by the Supra, it is to say that the contact was their’s too avoid.

The Supra is not alongside in the braking zone.
The Supra is not alongside at turn in.
It only achieves any overlap at the apex at which point its nose should not have been there.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but you will never see anyone park the car on the track like that in real racing, nor is the car behind expected to follow so far back that it can avoid contact if the car in front does do that. At the 150m board, the Supra looks to be about 30m behind, yet the Megane still slows down so excessively that it puts the Supra on a collision course with it. Just how far back do you think people should follow, and how do you expect racing to take place if people have to maintain that size of gap to the car in front at all times?
 
breeminator
I'm sorry but you will never see anyone park the car on the track like that in real racing, nor is the car behind expected to follow so far back that it can avoid contact if the car in front does do that. At the 150m board, the Supra looks to be about 30m behind, yet the Megane still slows down so excessively that it puts the Supra on a collision course with it. Just how far back do you think people should follow, and how do you expect racing to take place if people have to maintain that size of gap to the car in front at all times?
Click to expand...
The same way any close racing takes place, by reacting to what it is happening in front of you.

“The Megane is certainly not parked on the apex”
 
Famine
Racing incident.

He hits the brake marker where he ought, makes the choice to go left early, is hard on the brakes and gets it stopped adequately before the apex:

View attachment 889075

And you start to turn in more than half a second later:

View attachment 889076

By which time he's got not all that much hope of avoiding you, especially as his front-right tyre is locked up:

View attachment 889077

In fact, it's only been 1.7s since he made the choice to go left:

View attachment 889079

I'm not entirely sure what he could have done to avoid this collision. Though obviously if he's quoting Senna to defend his actions, he's a tossrag.
Click to expand...
Going for the left when he should have realized there wasn't a gap there was the issue here in my opinion. If he realizes he's to far back and doesn't make the decision to chuck it up the inside then the contact doesn't happen. Thats way to far back to go for a move with no contact. If I was the lead guy I turn in on him too because I wouldn't expect he dives from that far back.
 
Fudman420
Going for the left when he should have realized there wasn't a gap there was the issue here in my opinion.
Click to expand...
There was a gap, until 0.65s after he decided to go into it when the car in front turned into it.

He had a tiny, tiny window of opportunity to take evasive action and go right (which he may not have succeeded in doing because of that locked up front-right) but a surprising number of people have target fixation in situations like that.

Both cars would have made it through the corner at race-ish pace if the Megane hadn't shut the door - which with early braking (more so given the Megane V6's incredible brakes) and a very late turn in, it had left wide open - but ultimately it's two unaware cars in a mixed class (so different performance abilities) going for the same apex at the same time.

If the Supra had used the Megane to slow itself down, sure, but it didn't. It's an unwittingly open door unwittingly slammed shut while someone was inexorably heading towards it. Racing incident.
 
rono_thomas
The same way any close racing takes place, by reacting to what it is happening in front of you.
Click to expand...
There's no way that the car behind could have predicted the car in front was going to slow down so excessively at the point where he'd have needed to start braking to avoid the collision. I remember an F1 incident where a driver went into the back of the car in front in a braking zone, and they checked the telemetry to see if the car in front had braked any earlier than is normal for that corner. They found that the car in front had braked normally, but the implication was that if it hadn't, it would have been the fault of the car in front, not the car behind. You're not allowed to just do whatever the heck you want to put the car behind on a collision course with you.
 
Fudman420
Going for the left when he should have realized there wasn't a gap there was the issue here in my opinion. If he realizes he's to far back and doesn't make the decision to chuck it up the inside then the contact doesn't happen. Thats way to far back to go for a move with no contact. If I was the lead guy I turn in on him too because I wouldn't expect he dives from that far back.
Click to expand...
This is exactly right, if that’s not enough of a gap to make a real time decision that the pass is not on what is.

The Supra is attempting to take his “normal” (Ive no way of knowing but benefit of the doubt) line without factoring the very obvious different line the Megane is taking
 
breeminator
There's no way that the car behind could have predicted the car in front was going to slow down so excessively at the point where he'd have needed to start braking to avoid the collision. I remember an F1 incident where a driver went into the back of the car in front in a braking zone, and they checked the telemetry to see if the car in front had braked any earlier than is normal for that corner. They found that the car in front had braked normally, but the implication was that if it hadn't, it would have been the fault of the car in front, not the car behind. You're not allowed to just do whatever the heck you want to put the car behind on a collision course with you.
Click to expand...
Its very easy to predict, and very obvious that the Megane is on a different line
 
The other thing I see there is to me the supra had positioned his car to head for that gap from the braking point. I feel like he had made up his mind to go there before the braking point. I always race under the assumption that it is the responsibility of the overtaking car to put him or her self in a position make a clean overtake. I think it's real easy to look at that situation and say there isn't a good opportunity at a clean overtake and setup a pass at a different point where I'm side by side at the braking marker.
 

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