Gran Turismo 7 Rumored as PlayStation 5 Launch Title

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GTPNewsWire, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. Snaeper

    Snaeper Premium

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    OT-ish: I plugged GT5 in the other day and was looking through the car dealers and got to the end and saw Spoon. I got super excited because I had completely forgot they had a Premium model... Only to re-discover the CR-Z.

    I miss the days of Mugen, Tommy Kaira, Mine's and Spoon (and many others) from GT2.

    I also got a real hankering for late '90's JGTC machinery. Someone needs to make a game solely dedicated to the 1999 JGTC season, or a Mod at least...
     
  2. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Couple of points that you have ignored here. GT is not alone in being used as a tech showcase for Sony products and the sales rates and system uplift for the GT series has dropped off dramatically from its highpoint of the PS2, something you would have t ignore cold hard sales data to even come close to making as a claim.

    When the PS54 Pro 4K upscaling was announced, GTS wasn't among the titles used to demo that, now GTS wasn't out at that point, but the argument you are making is that even before release GT is a tech-demo showcase. Yet in reality, it's far from alone in that regard, despite that at the time members here were convinced that it would be used to show off 4K upscaling. Yet the main title used to actually do so was a third party one, with Tomb Raider being one of the most used in that regard. That's of course without once again mentioning that a tech demo isn't a final product, as such PD being used to show off tech has nothing at all to do with making a release date. As indicated (as I have now mentioned repeatedly) by the Vision GT and GTHD tech demos, that didn't even end up as released products!

    Significant other numbers of first and third party titles utterly murder GT in these terms and all make for better launch system titles. GT as a series sells stupidly well for a racing title, it doesn't repeat that feat when it comes to overall software sales.


    This again.

    You do know that to get to the '3-year release timeline' you have to cherry pick data massively. Including one prologue title while ignoring another, making the assumption that dev time is equal for the first and second release for each two release platform. None of which is accurate and reaks of cherry picking, GT5 Prologue was not a full release and to include it (while omitting GT4 Prologue) is misleading, as is the use of second platform titles to reduce the average (as they should never take as long to create).

    Now if you add in both prologues and keep second platform releases in place you actually get a 2.5 year average, add in the Concepts (and you should if the prologues are in, they were as complete as the prologues) and you get to a 2.3 year average. Now you would have to be a fool to think that's an accurate reflection of PD's turnaround of new titles, but that's what the actual title to title average is, and illustrates the cherry-picking that has been done to get to the (handy) 3-year figure.

    The actual numbers, from last full release on a platform to next full release on a platform, are:

    PS2: 2 years
    PS3: 6 years
    PS4: 4 years

    Which is a 4-year average, but its also a small data set and a skewed one due to PD clearly finding the PS2 easy to develop for and the PS3 a struggle to develop for. However, given that it took 4 years to get a release out on the PS4 and many here have argued that the PS5 will be as straightforward to develop with (how the hell the can state that with authority is however a mystery, as unless they actually have hands-on with the dev-kit, toolset and middleware, its nothing but a wild guess) and like the PS3 to PS4 shift they can also pull across assets, then that looks to be the quickest they can turn a title around. Which indicates a 2011 release date rather than a 2010 one is, on the basis of not cherry picking data, more likely.


    And most of them have a track record for doing so successfully, something that PD doesn't, as such its a 'whataboutism' logical fallacy. PD's track record is what counts here.


    A. GTS is a blockbuster in terms of racing titles, not software overall.
    B. As I have covered above, it only meets the time-frame if you cherry-pick data.
    C. People who buy a console just for GT were what was being discussed, and my point was that 'single-title' purchasers are the last thing you want for a launch console.


    They said that for the last two generation changes, didn't work out that way either of those times either.

    Utter and complete nonsense, weather effects have nothing at all to do with hardware limitations of the PS4.

    Racing titles that include weather on the platform include: WRC 5, 6 and 7, with 8 to have dynamic weather, Project Cars 1 and 2 (both dynamic), DriveClub (arguably the best graphically on the platform), F1 2016, 17 and 18. Dakar 18, Vrally 4, Ride 1,2 and 3, TT IoM, SLRE, Dirt Rally 1 and 2, Dirt 4.

    In fact the only two title I can think that didn't have wet weather are GTS and AC. Now AC was developed by a tiny team with no PS4 experience and a clear focus on physics and FFB.

    Weather, be it either fixed or dynamic is more than possible on the PS4, and in a very, very basic form is in GTS (one event at one very short track and not very well done), as such it has nothing at all to do with hardware limits and it totally about how PD chose to spend the system resource budget they had to hand. PD clearly focused on maximising visual fidelity over everything else, and that has nothing at all to do with hardware limits, or we would not see just about every other dev choosing a different system resource budget and managing to include weather.

    Yet PD being PD they are likley to re-engineer everything.

    Honestly every time we get a new platform we get the same story from PD, 'we can directly transfer assetts', we 'already have the base in place', 'most of the work is already done', the 'engine can be reused'.

    To-date its never either been done or provided the time-savings that they claimed it would, as such I remain very, very skeptical that they will change in that regard at all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  3. o000o

    o000o

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    No one here ever bring out about car damage again? To be requested for this next GT, or even use that to mock GTS?
     
  4. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Personally I've to a degree given up on a good damage model for the series, and would put a number of factors above it

    They need to fix the pinball collision physics before the damage model, as that seriously hurts the sport mode.
     
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  5. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    As much as I want this to be true, I highly doubt PD can make a GT launch title, unless they want to pull another 'GTS' and release half a game with minimal features, throw in a bunch of random updates that will make (or break) the game, add back previous content and so forth to get people singing the same thing all over again.

    They're too slow to even warrant this fact. So until proven otherwise, I will remain skeptical.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  6. karelpipa

    karelpipa

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    According to your avatar picture.
    I imagined this when GT1 and GT2. I wanted to drive in intro graphics. Now we have even better graphics, but i still want to drive in GT1/GT2 intro graphics :D
     
  7. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    All your points are completely valid.

    However, I am still optimistic also based on the graphics settings that are in GTS at the moment.

    Switching between 4k, 2k optimized for resolution, and 2k optimized for frame rate, you can really see that pixel pushing is the technological issue at the moment. My personal opinion is that 2K optimized for frame rate is actually the best looking version, When I play that on my 4K TV, I feel it looks great! That said, you can definitely see the jagged edges of the pixels and some people hate that.

    Either way, the content development time no longer increases as it has in previous iterations. So, even to get to 8K, they don't have to add dev time to add more polys to the models. As is the case now, the (relative) quality can be adjusted on the code side. Something like that can even be added in an update.

    I believe that, in this case, their claims of transferable work is more valid than it ever has been. I think once we know more about PS5, it can answer come questions. If it's very similar to PS4, but with more memory and power, the move over might be very easy. After all, backwards compatibility is supposedly a feature, maybe they achieved that by relying on the same basic architecture.
     
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  8. outofspace

    outofspace

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    I know i was just joking :)
     
  9. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    PS5 will be put on sale end 2020 to beginning 2021 , price 500 euros 560 USD.
    This is a prevision of a very trusted french youtuber who have strong technicals and commercials arguments in my opinions . (Some few english text in video)
     
  10. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    Sure but its no coincidence that PD have already shown GTS in 8k/120fps and have implemented ray tracing, both being tech features of the PS5.

    Wrong.
    GT3 was SCE's best selling exclusive of all time until TLoU.
    GT5 was also the best selling PS3 exclusive.
    GTS by the end will have near 9 million+ players and I'm guessing 7 million+ sales.

    GT has always been a blockbuster software title, especially for exclusives.

    Simple. Because they share the same architecture. That has never been the case in prior generations of Playstation.

    Thats not how it works. Most people who buy a PS for GT will continue buying games on the system.
     
  11. Auditore

    Auditore

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    Kaz talked about open world and he talked about wanting to make a rpg my idea was to make a rpg set in japan about street racing kinda like persona 5 but the big fights would be replaced with street racing(and it would be open world)that way it avoids being called a Horizon copycat
     
  12. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    If no additional tech was coming I would be inclined to agree with you, but knowing PD and the introduction of Ray-Tracing it would be a brave person to rule out them wanting t suddenly re-model and skin everything to 'make the most of it'.

    Nor beyond a short tech demo do we know how well PD is getting on with ray tracing, and I'm not going to assume a launch day release based on an unconfirmed rumour and a tech demo.



    In the grand scheme of things its a minor clue, PD have shown a lot off in tech demos before, doesn't have a single bearing on what we will get or how quickly we get it, and the how quickly we get it is the key factor.


    Not at all, as I never limited it to either first party title or exclusives.

    Once again, and utterly unsurprisingly, you have moved the goal posts.


    ****ing hell, you have access to a dev-kit, know the tool-set and the middleware?

    Do share, that will be an exclusive and a half.

    Sharing the same architecture is no guarantee of a quick and easy transfer from one platform to another. At work the platform we use (Kalidus Learn) we are in the process of switching from one version to another, the software is the same base, the server architecture it's hosted on is unchanged, yet our content (which is also unchanged in package type - SCORM) upon testing did not behave as expected and is now being subject to a major re-write and in some cases change of authoring tool).

    What to the layman may seem an easy transfer, is often, in reality far from it. So to be blunt I'm going to treat your assumptions as exactly that, unfounded assumptions based on bugger all actual knowledge.


    If you had actually bothered to read what I was replying to you would know that the point I was responding to was people buying a PS5 just for GT, as such your reply is an utter irrelevance
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  13. Auditore

    Auditore

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    Im glad PS5 will have PS4 BC because it ensures GT will have a smooth transition to next gen instead of the botched GT6 that was condemned to PS3 hell when it came out.
     
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  14. o000o

    o000o

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    GT (and Forza Motorsport, currently) is already basically CaRPG. RPG elements in GT Mode:
    • When you win you gain money (in place of experience); although in GT4 and GT5 there was real experience point.
    • You can then raise your money (in place of leveling up) until you have enough to buy new kit, and upgrading parts replaces the upgrade cycle of buying new armor and weapons. GTS go straight leveling up.
    • Both raise your stats so you can take on tougher opponents, and you also get new cars instead of party members.
    • And quite often you'll grind the races for more money and selling off the prize cars.
    I would like the open world to stimulate real world street driving (The Real Driving Simulator, at all, not Racing). It may be the first to do so, but may be extremely restrictive and boring (when open world's appeal is freedom). Kaz did say he wanted to implement speed limit...
     
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  15. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Don't forget that in GTS you now can also effectively 'level-up' your cars as well.
     
  16. Earth

    Earth

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    Making GT7 a PS5 launch title would be a brilliant move by Sony and would continue GT's road to redemption.

    PD has already fixed some big issues like lack of relevant cars, and no livery editor. Now they just need a compelling single player campaign and reasonable 3 year gaps between titles and we will have old GT again.
     
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  17. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Titles exist on PC that simulate day to day driving, so in that regard no it wouldn't be the first, as does the Euro Truck series.

    First on console, but I fear we are talking far too niche an idea for console.
     
  18. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    Won't be boring if players can drive to a race track. ;)
     
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  19. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    It should have an open-world too like Forza Horizon but don't mind. That's just mostly wishful thinking. :lol:
     
  20. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    Why wouldn't it? It could very well signal next gen GT being well into development.

    Neither did I. GT sales numbers are still blockbuster and something many big third parties would envy.

    The point was its far easier and quicker than prior gens were the two architectures were wildly different.

    :lol:

    And my response was those people will in most cases buy more games.
     
  21. Auditore

    Auditore

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    That's why i wanted it to be about street racing,but my idea would go even further,the game would have walking sections.Inspired by Initial D,a kid with a crappy car goes up the ranks in street racing.Kaz was a street racer himself he could bring his experience to the story.
     
  22. AlanH49

    AlanH49

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    TBH, I think you’re being a touch overzealous and your arguments overreliant on past examples. It’s reminiscent of those who insisted PS5 would not have backwards compatibility because of Sony’s current gen policy. A view which made zero sense after recent industry changes & consumer behaviour.

    It’s fine to be sceptical of PD’s claim PS4 asset’s are future proofed. PS5 will be a native 4K machine while PS4 Pro is a checkerboard 4K console. New hardware will give PD the overhead to use high LOD ‘photomode’ quality models & lighting, higher resolutions & textures, more cars on the grid etc. It isn’t going to fundamentally change the racing genre and require a ground up redesign.

    Neither do I believe Sony/PD would dedicate so many resources to ‘free’ track/car DLC (with no sign of it ending). Unless such content could be used on a PS5 title(s).

    It’s also misplaced to suggest GT7 isn’t big enough to be a key PS5 launch title. PS4 launched with Killzone.....and Knack. GT7, going head-to-head with the next Forza, backed-up by prominent cross-gen titles, would be a formidable line-up.

    Post GTS’s release I see plenty evidence PlayStation & PD are getting their house in order. I’ve been of the view GT7 would be a PS5 launch window title well before leaks hit. Development is unpredictable. PD may target PS5 launch, it could slip 6 months out, even a full year later. What I certainly don’t expect is GT7 arriving 3-4 years into the generation.
     
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  23. o000o

    o000o

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    Relevant cars? Only new cars are relevant? Not classic legendaries like Group Cs?
     
  24. ArR29

    ArR29

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    Correct me if im wrong isn't it modern and up to date the same meaning or am I using the term "modern" wrong? What I'm trying to say is most cars in GT3 aren't up to date and majority of them are from the 90's.
     
  25. HarVee

    HarVee

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    I'm still not understanding your point. These '90s cars you reference are mostly between the years of 1996-1999. a 5 year difference doesn't make a car old enough to not be classified as modern.
     
  26. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    'Could' that's the right word.

    Could be well in development, could also be struggling in dev hell with only a short pre-generated bit of target footage possible.

    All it does (with any degree of certainty) mean is that the PS5 will have ray tracing in some form and that the next GT title will most likley have it, it provides no accurate idea of how far away that GT title is.


    Yes, you clearly did, that's why you used the terms SCE and exclusive.

    However, these days the numbers of circa 7 million doesn't make it a blockbuster. The likes of FIFA, COD, GTA, Red Dead Redemption 2 all utterly dominate those numbers. Now yes they are multi-format and multi-generational (in some cases), but that's exactly what is needed to be a blockbuster title.

    GT is a AAA title, no dought about that at all, but these days its certainly not a blockbuster in terms of raw figures, and the truly big third parties are the ones that are the real blockbusters.


    No, the point is that it 'may' be quicker and easier than prior gens.

    At this point right now you would need access to the dev-kits, etc and actually be working on it to know that. Even then the experience of one studio with it doesn't automatically mean that another will be identical. The PS3 is a good example of that, no-one disagrees that it was a pain in the arse to develop for, but some studios got to grips with it better than others, contrast the turnaround and work of Naughty Dog with that of PD for evidence.

    You're once again making absolute statements based on far to little information.



    Given that many of those players have never done that (quite literally we have had members here who buy a console for one title and that's it, you are once again utterly missing the point.


    Nope, I'm using the actual information we have and not overplaying it.

    Keep in mind that I have not said GT7 cannot be a launch title, simply that based on past evidence (which is all we have to work with) that i'm sceptical.

    Your BC example is actually a good one, as based on past evidence it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the PS5 will be backwards compatible (and I have never once said it wouldn't be) given that the PS2 and PS3 both were (and I am fortunate enough to own an original fat PS3, which I still use for PS2 title).


    I think you underestimate ray-tracing and the system demands it will place on a dev if they chose to use it, take a look at the grunt needed to get it running on a PC for clear evidence of that.

    If PD is looking to use it throughout the title it may well preclude larger grids, it may well be once again giving them a resolution vs frame-rate challenge.

    So yes it may well require a fundamental re-think and re-design of the work flow they use when running the software, the simple truth is that we don't know, and personally, I'm not going to state categorically that GT7 will be a launch title based on an unknown that big.



    Unless they wanted GTS to die on its arse they had little choice, GTS was launched at full price for a very content lite title.


    In the past GT as a series was too big for a launch title, why do you think the real blockbuster devs don't target console launches, the simple answer is that the target audience is too small. The PS4 (Sonys fastest selling machine) sold 1 million on its first day and circa 5 million in the first six months. To date, its sold 91 million units and GTS around 6 million copies, that's a 6.6% attach rate. Even if PD managed to increase its attach rate to 15% and Sony sold twice as many PS5's on day one, that would equate to only around 300,000 units sold.

    Being a release title is both an advantage and a disadvantage. If your sales volume is historically low (and Killzone's has always been) then its an advantage, KZ2 sold circa 1 million units total, KZ3 sold less than that, KZ3 sold 2.1 million, with 1 million in the first 7 weeks (as the first first-person shooter on PS4). Great numbers for them, shocking numbers when compared to even the worst GT numbers.


    I agree that they are getting their house in order, with getting being the operative word.

    Keep in mind that I've already said that I find it quite likely that GT7 may be targeted as a launch title, it would not be the first time for that. GT2000 was targeted as a PS2 launch title and renamed GT3 when it missed that target. GT7 being targeted doesn't mean it will happen.

    The source of all of this I think also needs to be remembered, it's a paste-bin post, which requires no verification to put in place, and as such should be treated with a degree of scepticism.

    Could GT7 be a launch title? Yes, I've never said anything different, does this 'evidence' confirm it as one? No, and even if it is targeted to be one, that doesn't make it a slam-dunk either.


    If the majority of the cars in GT3 are from a period within ten years of the time GT3 came out then they are modern in that regard.

    The only way the majority of the cars in GT3 were not modern is if you are viewing it from today's date, but that would be patently absurd.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
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  27. Seasidesammy

    Seasidesammy

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    Rc
    Still going to cost £750 to get started
     
  28. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    This I think is an important key as to what the focus may be on the next GTS title. Also they are talking VR and as I have been looking into VR currently for PC the amount of processing power both CPU and GPU required for good VR performance actually taxes the the best of the high end PC consumer hardware currently available and to build a rig to those upper end specs you are looking north of 2000.00 U.S. dollars currently.

    So if a game wants to maintain the graphical levels and add in VR and Ray-tracing (another demanding process) then any increase in game performance allocations to physics, real time weather, AI whatever will be hampered as a result.

    Simple actually, you have a dollar worth of resources to spend and each process cost so many cents to implement, some much more than others. You can only allocate so many processes before you are out of resource budget, somewhere something is going to give and come up short and you have already spent your whole dollars worth of resources.

    I like a nice looking game as much as anyone but personally I find say spending the resources on ray-tracing to be of a much less importance than spending the resource budget giving me better driving physics, good user adjustable FFB and a better smarter AI who's difficulty and aggression lever is on a user adjustable slider bar than not gaining those things and getting graphics better than in the current GTS game which is the best in the genre already.

    Eye candy and detail is awesome but does not make up for a game that play is lacking as a result of being pretty.

    Another thing is this day and time there are more racing games or sims that challenge GTS for sales and pretty much all of those are available multi-platform and do not require a Playstation to play on and playing on PC does not require and additional subscription to play online which is another cost to factor into using the PS platform.

    As console cost continue to get higher to buy into the next generations then you may find more people not willing to pay the cost of admission. I have owned every series of the playstation to date but I am not sure I will buy into the PS5.

    Gts is a decent game in a lot of areas but is actually the only game I play on a constant basis that I cannot access through my PC. I question right now whether that one game will be worth the purchase of the most expensive console to be released by Sony will be worthwhile for me any way.

    Say what you want but cost does factor into how many people will decide to spend their gaming budget.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
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  29. 305Michael305

    305Michael305

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    Why would it flop. Gt is a system seller. It’s better then forza in terms of true racing and realism. I always liked gt.
     
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  30. 305Michael305

    305Michael305

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    Racing games are not purchased by everyone. Gt has a history with the best racing game ever on ps and both real life cars and real life racing. It may take a few years for each one to come out and that’s not a bad thing because each one that comes out isnamazing andnadvanced. Forza doesn’t come close to doing what gt does I’m racing games for realism. They might be close in graphics but that’s it then gt pulls away for the win. Just like in formula 1. Ferrari might be fast but in the end it’s Mercedes and it’s team that always win.
     
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