Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[Tidgney]

Don't forget though that the Manufacturers Cup was Gr. 3.
So that doesn't explain the Alpine being elevated to Gr. 1 either.

Another surprise was seeing the Peugeot on that grid.
But I guess they only had 16 manufacturers to choose and they opted for the ones they did.

Ahh yes of course, got mixed up with the cups !! All I know is that when they came to cars to be chosen (Which is why I got confused) each car could only be represented once, and there was a clear instruction on the fact manufacturers were watching!

 

[Johnnypenso]

My guess would be that it's been heavily de-powered to rein in it's top speed.
And so the big drop in power also meant a big drop in weight to keep it competitive.

No dice. I don't think there is any modification you could do to that street car to get it to 980 kgs. The only thing that would do that is a complete build of a race car from the ground up and the creation of a shell to go over it that looks like the street car.

It's pretty obvious that there is going to be some fudging going on with the numbers for BoP purposes. The aero numbers of non-race cars wouldn't approach purpose built race cars either but it'll have to in order to compete.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No dice. I don't think there is any modification you could do to that street car to get it to 980 kgs. The only thing that would do that is a complete build of a race car from the ground up and the creation of a shell to go over it that looks like the street car.

It's pretty obvious that there is going to be some fudging going on with the numbers for BoP purposes. The aero numbers of non-race cars wouldn't approach purpose built race cars either but it'll have to in order to compete.

At the end of the day it's a virtual game so I think PD are basically saying: "who cares?"

 

[Tornado]

They similarly fudged around with numbers in GT4 (and GT5 and GT6 as a result) as well, seemingly to make race cars more competitive with cars they shouldn't have been.


It almost makes you wonder what the point of even having licenced cars is.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

View attachment 562368

Here is your answer to your concerns about the balance.

This chart creates more questions than it answers for me. If PD is going to the trouble of creating these custom classes, why is there such a surprising PP discrepancy between the Toyota and Bugatti? I'm not terribly surprised the VGT's seemingly top their classes, too.

Not that a PP/PI system will ever be perfect, so I don't expect cars to either all have identical scores using it, or all lap every track close to each other, but that's still a bigger difference than I'd expect given the entire point of the game is competition. I suppose it's less than a 10% difference, but it still strikes me as odd. Or, to put it more succinctly:

It almost makes you wonder what the point of even having licenced cars is.

 

[ribloGT]

At the end of the day it's a virtual game so I think PD are basically saying: "who cares?"

So PD should remove "the real driving simulation" from the cover cause there is no real no driving no simulation anymore... Just a FIA brand...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

In GT6, with most cars, PP pretty useless for gauging lap time performance ( Aero changes, grip from tire size, chassis, etc do not affect PP ) Some cars are simply better because it has better chassis grip, aero, power/weight ratio, weight distribution, torque curve and better tire size ( wider tires ).

GTS would be more than likely be the same, some cars even with more PP ( say 599 vs 620 ) may have similar lap time performance, PP system in GT was never right anyway, even in seasonal with limited PP, there's always the same car used that dominate the lap time, because PP calculation is still inaccurate.

 

[Tired Tyres]

PP is stupid. End of.

The last time I loaded GT6 I was looking for a race car and I noticed that the Toyota TS40 was 615 PP. Then I noticed the LMP2 car we got. 607 if I recall....

How many times does a LMP1 lap an LMP2 in a race?

 

[jm79]

PP is stupid. End of.

The last time I loaded GT6 I was looking for a race car and I noticed that the Toyota TS40 was 615 PP. Then I noticed the LMP2 car we got. 607 if I recall....

How many times does a LMP1 lap an LMP2 in a race?

God I hate the phrase 'End of', especially in internet forums, lol

Though that is an interesting question... Surely someone on here would know! (probably not many laps, I'd wager)

 

[Samus]

At Le Mans LMP2 is around 16-18 seconds a lap slower. The best LMP2 finisher this year was 27 laps off the LMP1 winner.

PP is stupid. End of.

The last time I loaded GT6 I was looking for a race car and I noticed that the Toyota TS40 was 615 PP. Then I noticed the LMP2 car we got. 607 if I recall....

How many times does a LMP1 lap an LMP2 in a race?

Indeed, and the GTR-LM was 655. I know it was replicated as a best-case scenario rather than what the real car ever managed but still.

 

[TurismoBad]

There's still hope for the car list. The rest of cars could be all GT3, LMP and super cars. As it is now it's not great to putt it lightly.

 

[ribloGT]

There's still hope for the car list. The rest of cars could be all GT3, LMP and super cars. As it is now it's not great to putt it lightly.

Hope is the first step on the road for disappointment...

 

[jm79]

Hope is the first step on the road for disappointment...

Still half of them to come! Stay positive! haha

 

[Tired Tyres]

Still half of them to come! Stay positive! haha

Oh man! The glass is half empty all ready.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So PD should remove "the real driving simulation" from the cover cause there is no real no driving no simulation anymore... Just a FIA brand...

I don't see them branding this game a driving simulator, when it's a competition based racer. I get the joke but it's best saved for GT7

 

[Palestinian]

The difference in PP between the cars in Gr.1 is the speed they will have setup as default settings. IF all the gr.1 cars were at there optimum setup then the PP rating would be the same. Some are setup with better race setting as default. I don't think it is possible to race in a sanction event if balance of performance is not taken in to consideration.\

the same can be said for the GR.3 class. you could get a Z4 to be same PP as GTR, with suspension-camber-aero setup.

 

[TokoTurismo]

So Kaz really is getting around since the launch event, isn't he? First he goes to do the Nurburgring 24hr, then he went all the way to E3 just to do a few presentations of 'old' footage and features, he then went to Italy for the FIA event but seemingly did nothing of note except for posing with FIA people and now he's flown back to the US to drive up PP for no real reason at all.

I'm telling ya the guy is just bored now. lol

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The difference in PP between the cars in Gr.1 is the speed they will have setup as default settings. IF all the gr.1 cars were at there optimum setup then the PP rating would be the same. Some are setup with better race setting as default. I don't think it is possible to race in a sanction event if balance of performance is not taken in to consideration.

It's a game though, all cars could be set up the same VGT wise with the idea of having same PP and just give them different characteristics to achieve this based on their fictional background.

the same can be said for the GR.3 class. you could get a Z4 to be same PP as GTR, with suspension-camber-aero setup.

No you can't not in a real world setting, it's not that simple. But once again as I've said and others say even more cynically (no fault of them but PD), they can do what they want based on the idea of a game. But it strikes me as a strange thing to do when the idea was an eSports game to corner that ever growing market, while trying to mimic a real world racing event that us normal people will never experience outside a game. Instead we get ridge racer vs real world cars.

I'm excited for the game, but at the same time I'm a bit worried with the competition aspect right now.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In GT6, with most cars, PP pretty useless for gauging lap time performance ( Aero changes, grip from tire size, chassis, etc do not affect PP ) Some cars are simply better because it has better chassis grip, aero, power/weight ratio, weight distribution, torque curve and better tire size ( wider tires ).

GTS would be more than likely be the same, some cars even with more PP ( say 599 vs 620 ) may have similar lap time performance, PP system in GT was never right anyway, even in seasonal with limited PP, there's always the same car used that dominate the lap time, because PP calculation is still inaccurate.

As with most blanket statements, this is untrue. While PP was not a perfect calculator of performance it was nowhere near useless. The problem with it was the outliers, cars that dramatically outperformed others at the same PP levels. Because they were so much faster than other cars they got all the focus and made the system look much worse than it really was. If the outliers were taken care of, many of the rest of the cars were actually fairly close in performance.

The difference in PP between the cars in Gr.1 is the speed they will have setup as default settings. IF all the gr.1 cars were at there optimum setup then the PP rating would be the same. Some are setup with better race setting as default. I don't think it is possible to race in a sanction event if balance of performance is not taken in to consideration.\

the same can be said for the GR.3 class. you could get a Z4 to be same PP as GTR, with suspension-camber-aero setup.

You have no idea if this is true or not. It's more than possible for cars of different PP levels to perform equally on track and vice versa, especially if PD sticks with aero not being a part of the PP calculation like it was in GT6. For all we know they could be sitting in the garage already BoP'd and that is the PP that comes with it as a balanced car. Suspension, camber and aero weren't a part of the PP calculation in GT6.

 

[GTPorsche]

PP shouldn't even be a thing in this game. If the cars are properly balanced in each class, PP is completely useless to base anything off of.

 

[Palestinian]

agree, common sense says the performance shud be balanced. And i think it will be. @Johnnypenso that was possible reason that could be the result of the difference. So i meant in effect the PP of all the cars is the same

 

[Grandea GTR]

Now to just watch when everyone goes for the highest PP car in the online lobbies...

 

[ribloGT]

Still half of them to come! Stay positive! haha

I was positive with GT6 and VGT...
We all know how it ended... ;-)

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

As with most blanket statements, this is untrue. While PP was not a perfect calculator of performance it was nowhere near useless. The problem with it was the outliers, cars that dramatically outperformed others at the same PP levels. Because they were so much faster than other cars they got all the focus and made the system look much worse than it really was. If the outliers were taken care of, many of the rest of the cars were actually fairly close in performance.

Blanket statement ? I have built so many cars in GT6, and cars that have similar lap time ( within half second for example ) at Apricot Hill, Tsukuba or Midfield, most of them varied in PP value ( can be more than 10PP difference ). Cars with high PP and skinny tires, or old vintage cars are often bad in terms of lap time, PP accuracy seem work better in car with weight range of 1000-1400kg, too much torque or too skinny tires, the PP would be less accurate quickly. I did Sega Touring car builds recently, tuning the Alfa 155, Opel Calibra, these 2 cars were very close in real life, but in GT6, Alfa 155 is doing better at Midfield even with more weight than Calibra ( both using same aero level )

The outlier car can also mean a lot slower car than it should ( from PP value ), the Buick Special is a good example, it's slower than other cars with same PP.

How do you propose to take care the outlier cars ( both slower and faster than it should ) ? PP works by same calculation that applied to all cars in GT, in order to make these outlier car to have proper PP value to represent it's performance, how about the rest of the cars that you deem already fairly close in performance ? What are these cars that you said fairly close ? FR cars vs AWD cars vs FF cars on 450PP, are they can be very close ? Could you show me some cars with each drivetrain that can compete within half second of each other on at least 3 different track on 450PP ?

In the end, most of the time, BOP needs to be done if wanted to be sure, as PP can't be relied on, or do parity racing, you and I have done this back in GT5, the easiest way to do close racing, than relying on PP limit.

 

[Samus]

The difference in PP between the cars in Gr.1 is the speed they will have setup as default settings. IF all the gr.1 cars were at there optimum setup then the PP rating would be the same. Some are setup with better race setting as default. I don't think it is possible to race in a sanction event if balance of performance is not taken in to consideration.\

the same can be said for the GR.3 class. you could get a Z4 to be same PP as GTR, with suspension-camber-aero setup.

What? Are you saying some cars are purposely set up badly, and that lowers their PP?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Now to just watch when everyone goes for the highest PP car in the online lobbies...

If it's a true esport game, then it will be patched, and there will be a meta, thus a shift if power with each patch.

 

[Palestinian]

@Samus if they have BoP then that is the only logical explanation.... but they could genuinely they have a different level of performance. Don't see how racing can be made fair if some cars are dynamically faster then others... But will have to see what the actual situation is

 

[Seanspeed]

Crap, I was at Goodwood Festival of Speed yesterday trying to keep my eye out to see if GT Sport was anywhere and I couldn't find it. Just one setup where they had GT6 to play.

But apparently the Volkswagen building had it and I totally missed it.

Argh.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Blanket statement ?

In GT6, with most cars, PP pretty useless for gauging lap time performance

I have built so many cars in GT6, and cars that have similar lap time ( within half second for example ) at Apricot Hill, Tsukuba or Midfield, most of them varied in PP value ( can be more than 10PP difference ).

My point exactly. Many cars with nearly identical lap times only a few PP apart. If you take out the outliers there are dozens of cars with similar performance, at least close enough to race with, at any given PP level. The system wasn't perfect but it was far from useless.

How do you propose to take care the outlier cars ( both slower and faster than it should ) ? PP works by same calculation that applied to all cars in GT, in order to make these outlier car to have proper PP value to represent it's performance, how about the rest of the cars that you deem already fairly close in performance ? What are these cars that you said fairly close ? FR cars vs AWD cars vs FF cars on 450PP, are they can be very close ? Could you show me some cars with each drivetrain that can compete within half second of each other on at least 3 different track on 450PP ?

The outliers indicate that the system is misweighted on at least one key element, which, IMO, is grip. One thing I learned from hybriding in GT5 was that if you took cars that didn't have good grip, increased the grip levels and let the PP rise, then reduced power to compensate, they all of a sudden became competent performers on the track. The cars that carry the highest cornering speeds are generally the fastest at any PP. The real answer is to rewrite the algorithm that determines PP levels but, again, IMO, it's not reasonable to expect any system to come close to equalizing all the various different categories of cars into one giant supercategory sorted by PP. I think the system is weaker than it needs to be in part because it simply tries to do too much.

One possible solution is to subdivide cars into different categories and have PP levels that make more sense within the category. Modern supercars, modern sports cars, modern sedans, classic FF's etc. could all be subcategories where the PP levels are much closer and it would make more sense to race them together rather than trying to come up with a single system where a 90's Civic is trying to race against a Lotus Elise. Hosts can use the various tools at hand like limiting drivetrains to further divide the categories for more balanced racing.

In the end, most of the time, BOP needs to be done if wanted to be sure, as PP can't be relied on, or do parity racing, you and I have done this back in GT5, the easiest way to do close racing, than relying on PP limit.

BoP is absolutely necessary for GTSport to provide close and even racing. Let's hope they didn't rely on the PP system to do it and did an extensive amount of testing to verify whatever the BoP levels were for each car.

 

[dacc10]

This chart creates more questions than it answers for me. If PD is going to the trouble of creating these custom classes, why is there such a surprising PP discrepancy between the Toyota and Bugatti? I'm not terribly surprised the VGT's seemingly top their classes, too.

Not that a PP/PI system will ever be perfect, so I don't expect cars to either all have identical scores using it, or all lap every track close to each other, but that's still a bigger difference than I'd expect given the entire point of the game is competition. I suppose it's less than a 10% difference, but it still strikes me as odd. Or, to put it more succinctly:

I posted the chart (a print screen from one of the videos PD had taken down), to answer a specific question of someone doubting about the cars being re-balanced.
Of course it would raise more questions.

I don't know how the PP system will work this time, and I don't know how it worked before. Maybe small things such as top speed, and electric power of some hybrid cars isn't calculated. The Toyota has a temporary boost of power, so maybe that explains it's low PP if they do not count the hybrid system. After all, it works just like NOS, a temporary boost of power giving extra acceleration, once it cuts out, these cars only have the power of the combustion.

But hey, what do I know? They are the only ones who in fact know what counts and what doesn't count for the PP system, we just speculate...