GTP Cool Wall: 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 Coupe

[Heldenzeit]

My favorite Camaro. High revving 302 with cross ram intake made for Trans Am racing. SZ for me.

 

[huskeR32]

Great all-around performer for the day. Right behind the ZL1 as my favorite classic Camaro.

Sub-zero. One of my favorite Camaros (only behind the 69 ZL1) and of course, because it's a muscle car.

Gotta disagree with the ZL1 love here. Big blocks have one advantage: they make a fantastic noise. They have several disadvantages: They make cars nose-heavy and cause poor handling, they chug gas, and they cause people to loudly boast about horsepower numbers and quarter-mile times.

The 302, on the other hand, still makes a good noise, revs happily (which is a lot of fun), and makes for a much more balanced, better-handling car.

Cool. Though the SS is cooler.

Meh. If you're going to pass on the inherent wonderfulness of the 302 Z/28, then you may as well go for a big-block. Don't get me wrong, the 350 is a fine engine. But without the sharper responses of the Z/28, or the outrageous earth-shaking big-block noise and power levels, the SS seems like a mediocre middle ground to me.

First-gen Camaros are cool. The Z/28 is SZ.

 

[Dagger311]

Gotta disagree with the ZL1 love here. Big blocks have one advantage: they make a fantastic noise. They have several disadvantages: They make cars nose-heavy and cause poor handling, they chug gas, and they cause people to loudly boast about horsepower numbers and quarter-mile times.

The 302, on the other hand, still makes a good noise, revs happily (which is a lot of fun), and makes for a much more balanced, better-handling car.



Meh. If you're going to pass on the inherent wonderfulness of the 302 Z/28, then you may as well go for a big-block. Don't get me wrong, the 350 is a fine engine. But without the sharper responses of the Z/28, or the outrageous earth-shaking big-block noise and power levels, the SS seems like a mediocre middle ground to me.

First-gen Camaros are cool. The Z/28 is SZ.

I love the ZL1, and if someone parked a Z/28 and a ZL1 in my driveway, I can't guarantee I'd choose the Z/28, but the 302 really is a wonderful all around engine. Has plenty of power and torque, fairly lightweight, doesn't inhibit handling as bad as say, a 396, and still sounds just as wonderful.

The music ruined the video, but here's the Z/28 I saw. Numbers matching 302.


Also, shameless channel advertisement .

 

[Adamgp]

Gotta disagree with the ZL1 love here. Big blocks have one advantage: they make a fantastic noise. They have several disadvantages: They make cars nose-heavy and cause poor handling, they chug gas, and they cause people to loudly boast about horsepower numbers and quarter-mile times.

The 302, on the other hand, still makes a good noise, revs happily (which is a lot of fun), and makes for a much more balanced, better-handling car.

The 427 in the ZL1 was all aluminum and weighed about the same as a small block 327 of the same year. Weight distribution was 55/45 F/R, not far off a Z/28 of the same year. Total weight was around 3,300-3400lbs, also close to a Z/28 from 1969.

 

[huskeR32]

The 427 in the ZL1 was all aluminum...

Forgot that the ZL1 had an aluminum block, mea culpa.

...and weighed about the same as a small block 327 of the same year.

OK, but what does a 327 have to do with it? I was talking about a 302 vs. a 427.

I also tried finding information about this online, and couldn't. A couple places cited the weight savings of the ZL1 against an iron-block 427, but they didn't give the actual weight of the engine itself. And even then, they don't agree on how much the weight savings was. One site said 100 lbs., another said 150.

Not that I doubt you, I'm sure you're much more well-versed on muscle car stats than I am, but I'd be interested in seeing sources for your claim that there's not a significant weight difference.

Weight distribution was 55/45 F/R, not far off a Z/28 of the same year.

Can't seem to find reliable information online about this either. I did find one source for the ZL1 confirming your 55/45 number, so I'll accept that as true. Couldn't find a number anywhere for the Z/28, however, and since all you offered was a vague "not far off a Z/28," I'll assume you couldn't find it either. If you did, then I would again love to see a source.

I'd bet just about anything that whatever the Z/28's weight distribution was, it was better than the ZL1. Even if the smaller engine didn't weigh significantly less, it was surely able to be mounted farther back, with less weight hanging past the front axle. That would have paid huge dividends hustling through the twisty stuff.

Total weight was around 3,300-3400lbs, also close to a Z/28 from 1969.

Same problem. Found a source or two confirming a ZL1 as being in the mid-3300 area, so I'll again take your word for it. But I found weights for the Z/28 ranging from 3,100 all the way to 3,700. Makes it hard to conclusively state either way which was lighter. And again, if you do actually have sources, I'd love to read them.

 

[Adamgp]

OK, but what does a 327 have to do with it? I was talking about a 302 vs. a 427.

I also tried finding information about this online, and couldn't. A couple places cited the weight savings of the ZL1 against an iron-block 427, but they didn't give the actual weight of the engine itself. And even then, they don't agree on how much the weight savings was. One site said 100 lbs., another said 150.

Not that I doubt you, I'm sure you're much more well-versed on muscle car stats than I am, but I'd be interested in seeing sources for your claim that there's not a significant weight difference.

http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/classic-muscle-cars/1969-chevrolet-camaro-zl1.htm

4th paragraph down.

And it weighed just 500 pounds -- about the same as Chevy's 327-cid V-8.

Mentioned it to point out that larger displacement =/= more weight. Not all big blocks were heavy cast iron "boat anchors".

As for the 302 in the Z/28, I can't find any weights for the engine itself.

Can't seem to find reliable information online about this either. I did find one source for the ZL1 confirming your 55/45 number, so I'll accept that as true. Couldn't find a number anywhere for the Z/28, however, and since all you offered was a vague "not far off a Z/28," I'll assume you couldn't find it either. If you did, then I would again love to see a source.

I'd bet just about anything that whatever the Z/28's weight distribution was, it was better than the ZL1. Even if the smaller engine didn't weigh significantly less, it was surely able to be mounted farther back, with less weight hanging past the front axle. That would have paid huge dividends hustling through the twisty stuff.

I couldn't find a source for a Z/28. I'm sure the Z/28 had better balance, as the ZL1 wasn't built to be a corner carver. Being a car from the 60's, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a perfect 50/50. More like 52/48 or 53/47, which isn't far off the ZL1's 55/45.

I have no doubt a Z/28 will beat a Z/28 around a race track, as that is what the Z/28 was designed for.

Same problem. Found a source or two confirming a ZL1 as being in the mid-3300 area, so I'll again take your word for it. But I found weights for the Z/28 ranging from 3,100 all the way to 3,700. Makes it hard to conclusively state either way which was lighter. And again, if you do actually have sources, I'd love to read them.

Some sites get lazy with the specs. 3,100-3,700 was the weight range for the entire 1st gen V8 Camaro line. 3,100 for a base V8 coupe, 3,700 for a iron block SS396. A 1969 Z/28 was around 3,250.

http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

A ZL1 was was roughly 100lbs heavier than a Z/28. Depending on options of course. Not exactly a huge difference.

 

[Tornado]

'69 Camaros led the charge into the "Pro-Touring" scene of muscle cars. Since it's so common to see one of these sitting on proper sport suspension and tires, it gets a pass from being associated with the normal muscle car crowd.

That reminds me:

It was no EJECTO SEATO, though.

 

[Dagger311]

That reminds me:

It was no EJECTO SEATO, though.

I have to watch the Fast and Furious movies now.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

That reminds me:

It was no EJECTO SEATO, though.

But they did do some Dukes of Hazzard 🤬.

 

[huskeR32]

http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/classic-muscle-cars/1969-chevrolet-camaro-zl1.htm

4th paragraph down.

Thanks. So ZL1 roughly equals 327 in weight. Quite impressive for an engine that size, I must say.

Mentioned it to point out that larger displacement =/= more weight.

Don't recall saying that was the case.

Not all big blocks were heavy cast iron "boat anchors".

Indeed they're not, as you've clearly demonstrated. However, I'd say the ZL1 is an exception to the rule.

As for the 302 in the Z/28, I can't find any weights for the engine itself.

Then I'd say we're an an impasse on that one, huh?

I couldn't find a source for a Z/28. I'm sure the Z/28 had better balance, as the ZL1 wasn't built to be a corner carver. Being a car from the 60's, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a perfect 50/50. More like 52/48 or 53/47, which isn't far off the ZL1's 55/45.

I'd say that's a fair guess, let's call it 52.5/47.5.

Some sites get lazy with the specs. 3,100-3,700 was the weight range for the entire 1st gen V8 Camaro line. 3,100 for a base V8 coupe, 3,700 for a iron block SS396. A 1969 Z/28 was around 3,250.

http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

A ZL1 was was roughly 100lbs heavier than a Z/28.

That link takes me to a page about an 8-Series BMW? But anyways, I'll take your word for it. If we use your numbers and do the math:

Z/28: 3,250 * 0.525 = 1,706 lbs over the front wheels
ZL1: 3,350 * 0.55 = 1,843 lbs over the front wheels

So a ZL1 has an extra 137 lbs hanging over its front wheels. In other words, the increase in front-end weight is actually greater than the total weight difference between the two cars! Further, if both cars had the same 55/45 distribution, that difference would only be 55 lbs. I'd say that 2-3 point difference in weight distribution is more significant than you think it is.

 

[Legro]

Gotta disagree with the ZL1 love here. Big blocks have one advantage: they make a fantastic noise. They have several disadvantages: They make cars nose-heavy and cause poor handling, they chug gas, and they cause people to loudly boast about horsepower numbers and quarter-mile times.

The 302, on the other hand, still makes a good noise, revs happily (which is a lot of fun), and makes for a much more balanced, better-handling car.



Meh. If you're going to pass on the inherent wonderfulness of the 302 Z/28, then you may as well go for a big-block. Don't get me wrong, the 350 is a fine engine. But without the sharper responses of the Z/28, or the outrageous earth-shaking big-block noise and power levels, the SS seems like a mediocre middle ground to me.

First-gen Camaros are cool. The Z/28 is SZ.

This doesn't mean anything to many, many people. I'm not one to them, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any.

 

[huskeR32]

This doesn't mean anything to many, many people. I'm not one to them, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any.

Nearly every opinion that has been shared by anybody on any GTP Cool Wall wouldn't mean anything to the vast majority of people. What's your point?

 

[Tornado]

Remember that the SBC was a compact, lightweight engine compared to the industrial-looking iron lumps they replaced ten years earlier, but they were still iron engines.

 

[Legro]

Nearly every opinion that has been shared by anybody on any GTP Cool Wall wouldn't mean anything to the vast majority of people. What's your point?

I don't think that many people buy Camaro because of performance, mostly they buy them because of looks and sound and that comes to a personal preference, some may like ZL1 more some may not.

 

[huskeR32]

I don't think that many people buy Camaro because of performance, mostly they buy them because of looks and sound and that comes to a personal preference, some may like ZL1 more some may not.

I don't disagree, that's why I said this:

First-gen Camaros are cool. The Z/28 is SZ.

 

[PeterJB]

I absolutely need one of these in my life.

 

[Dagger311]

I absolutely need one of these in my life.

Same, unfortunately they'll be even rarer and more expensive by the time I could get one.

 

[Mikeybc]

Any 69 Camaro is SZ to me. I think it's the best looking generation Camaro ever...to bad they only made them this way for only 1 year.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

It's a Vauxhall.

Uncool.

I'm confused here, how is this Camaro a Vauxhall?

...or is this another joke going over my head?

 

[Cano]

I'm confused here, how is this Camaro a Vauxhall?

...or is this another joke going over my head?

I don't think even he understands hisownself sometimes.

 

[BATHURST 1000]

Best muscle car. Sub zero.