GTP_WRS/3D3 GT6 Career Championship

Discussion in 'WRS-OE Archive' started by hasslemoff, Sep 7, 2014.

  1. AaronDonegal

    AaronDonegal

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    Hi guys,
    Is it still possible to sign up and take part in this event on Sunday evening? I'm a little bewildered by all the registrations that seem to be required. Is this a comprehensive list of things that need to be for somebody brand new here?

    Things to do once, and only once: (I did these three things a couple of weeks ago)
    1. Sign up for gtplanet.net account.
    2. Send a best-lap replay as a gtplanet message to the relevant bot, in order to prove the link to your PSN account.
    3. Fill in the Driver Registry form.

    Things to be done before each event - different for each event. (This is the stuff I'm confused about now):
    1. Buy a car meeting the requirements of this competition (350pp, no tuning, et cetera)
    2. But it must cost no more than 20,000? Who/what tracks how much money you spend?
    3. Register for this event on Sunday evening (I've done that)
    4. Do we need to record a qualifying replay for this car at one (or all) of the three tracks?
     
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  2. DasDude

    DasDude

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    Just signed up, now onto the magical process of picking out a car... Which you folks have actually made rather interesting by the looks of the thread :tup:
     
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  3. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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  4. AaronDonegal

    AaronDonegal

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    Thanks! I've done that now, including the credit tracker. I guess the last thing I need to do before Sunday is practice lots! And watch the videos here about racecraft and so on, I don't want to cause any trouble as I'm going around in last place :)

    Is there any advice for back-markers? Is the race long enough that we will get lapped? I guess we're expected to get out of the way of the leaders as they come up behind us? Is there any easy way to tell whether the car behind is a race leader or another backmarker with who we are fighting for position?
     
  5. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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    Sorry I'm on my phone and so I'll keep it short.
    If you see each track has a capped lap time which you must not exceed, most drivers are choosing a car to run as close to thoose times as possible by using the power limiter and keeping the car under the pp limit, so if you can find a car to run around thoose times there is a good chance you cars are not going to be lapped. The races are also short.

    As long to try to avoid contact and keep it clean the race craft will come with more experiance, there is some videos in the WRS section from online races you could have a look at them.
     
  6. PHO3NIX_F1RE

    PHO3NIX_F1RE

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    Sorry, I fully intended on participating in the race, but some IRL stuff happened at about 6:00PM and I had to rush out of the house.

    Again, my apologies.
     
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  7. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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    Bonus Event 3 is closed.

    Thanks to all who participated in the Bonus Events, there will be no more Bonus Events until after the Novice Championship has Finished, Good luck in your car choice :).

    And remember there is the separate Cup Champion's and also the overall Novice Championship winner which one will you go for ;).
     
  8. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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    A Thank you to @jtv90069 :tup: for the help with the Credit Table, it now has the people who have done the Bonus events showing before they have to enter there car value.

    There might be a few odd bits in the table over the next hour.
     
  9. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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    Triple post oops

    Practice room open: closed
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
  10. AaronDonegal

    AaronDonegal

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    The rules about capped lap times are a bit strange. What does the 47 seconds mean for Autumn Ring Mini?

    We are expected to always/usually go *faster* than that time, e.g. take 46 seconds? If somebody is going to slow, then we kick them out for being useless?

    Or, we are expected to usually go *slower* than 47 seconds, e.g 48 seconds? Because if you go too fast, we don't like have to chase after you!!

    The problem is the word 'exceed' "Exceed 47 seconds" should mean "Take *more than* 47 seconds", but you guys mean the other way around?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
  11. Gravitron

    Gravitron Moderator

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    You cannot go faster than 47sec, ie your laptimes should always be higher than 47.000. With everyone going a similar pace, anyone can win.
     
  12. AaronDonegal

    AaronDonegal

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    Thanks for that clarification. That's a relief for me! I'm able to go faster than 47seconds sometimes, but not consistently. So I've got it about right, and should slow down a little.
     
  13. Gravitron

    Gravitron Moderator

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    Practice room up, trying to convince myself to go with the Neon (SRT4 '03) for the first 2, maybe all 3 Cups.

    1472-6681-3415-7081-5913
     
  14. Eggstor

    Eggstor Premium

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    Let me get the last few cars I need to test for the Sunday Cup and I'll be there shortly.

    I wouldn't do the Neon - it's a slow, fat pig of a car in 350PP trim. I did find something better than the Honda Civic Type Rs, though at $22,500, the TRD Celica isn't an option for those who didn't get bonus cash.
     
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  15. Gravitron

    Gravitron Moderator

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    Yes, I know, but within 5laps I've got it within tenths of the laptime limits at AR Mini and Stowe, and well...almost 4sec off the limit at Grand Valley East. :ouch:

    But I just noticed that we're using Draft settings of Weak, so I'll throw out one race and hope to not be last there. Can easily hit the laptime published recently by Paul for the 2nd Cup with it in 400pp trim.
     
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  16. GTP_Nail

    GTP_Nail Premium

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    Sorry guys...thunderstorm...power surges..the lights out! :crazy:
     
  17. Iceman220

    Iceman220

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    we can enter the credits after the sunday cup races right? Or we have to do it before?
     
  18. Gravitron

    Gravitron Moderator

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    OP says:

     
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  19. Eggstor

    Eggstor Premium

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    Revision history:

    1.0 (2 am CDT 10/10/2014) - Began the observations with most of the cars on my list tested at Grand Valley East.
    1.01 (9:30 am CDT 10/10/2014) - Began a "super-cheap" (i.e. cars under $16,000) section for those thinking about purchasing a 2nd car before the Amateur Cup.
    1.02 (6 pm CDT 10/10/2014) - Finally finished testing at Grand Valley East, added a link to a spreadsheet on the cars under $20,000 I tested, and added a section on "twins".


    My testing of 86 cars, 43 of them under $20,000, that are eligible for the Sunday Cup is (almost) complete, enough that I can give some impressions. I'm not the fastest person around (I'm usually a tick or two...or three behind the top times in the time trials), so the faster people might go with a car that's a bit weaker. Also, I ran all of my laps with no electronic aids, so that is something to keep in mind, especially when I get a more-comprehensive table, probably for just the sub-$20,000 cars, up, likely Friday night.

    General Sunday Cup observations

    The track that I struggled most to get close to the par time was Grand Valley East (GVE). The absolute fastest car I tested there, the 2000 TRD Celica, had a fast time of 1'24.381 on a solo 5-lap run. There isn't a tire drop-off in the limited distance, so with a end-of-the-race fuel load, that might well have dropped under 1'24.0.

    I had 12 cars go under 1'25.0, all but 2 front-wheel-drive cars with the other 2 MR cars, and another 12 under 1'25.6, including 2 FR cars and another MR car that is an uncontrollable "twin" of 1 of the top-speed MR cars. All of them are, at least on paper, also solid contenders for the Amateur Cup and a couple even have promise for the Novice Cup.

    A properly-executed full-lap draft at GVE is good for shaving a bit under a second off a solo run, so that is something to keep in mind. On the other hand, times seemed to be about a half-second slower in race conditions than in practice conditions (perhaps cautious driving did that).

    In limited testing at the other Sunday Cup tracks, both by myself and through others' reports, if a car is within 2-3 seconds of the par time at GVE, it should be right at the par time (or faster) at the other tracks.

    If a car ends up faster than par at the other tracks in your testing, you could either use the power limiter to get the PP under 350 or lift more often. Both carry risks; cutting the PP would limit your ability to recover from a mid-lap screw-up and you could forget to bump it back up at GVE, while lifting more often could get you run over in the race.

    Starter cars under $20,000

    There isn't a car under $20,000 that will top 400 PP with an oil change. That isn't to say there isn't potential for a multi-Cup car on a budget; indeed, the fastest 11 tested can get to at least 386 PP with an oil change.

    The class of the field is the 1990s Honda Civics/CR-X's, headed by the 1997 Type R. At 123 horsepower with no oil change and the limiter set at 69.8%, the 1997 Type R posted the 2nd-fastest time in the GVE testing at 1'24.610, and easily broke the par times at not only the other two Sunday Cup tracks, but, once at its maximum of 397 PP/185 hp after an oil change, at Brands Hatch Indy and Suzuka East (2 of the 3 tracks of the Amateur Cup). I'd expect it to struggle in the Novice Cup though.

    If you're not a Honda guy, the 1998 Toyota Sprinter Trueno/Corolla Levin BZ-R twins, the 1999 Toyota MR2 Spyder (but decidedly not its "twin" the MR-S S Edition) and the 1997 Mitsubishi Mirage Cyborg ZR all ran within 0.2 seconds of the 1997 Civic Type R, and are, on paper, strong contenders in the Amateur Cup. The 1997 Mitsubishi FTO GR, another on-paper strong contender in the Amateur Cup, was a bit behind at 1'25.756. Other, untested non-Honda strong candidates for a multi-Cup run include the 2002 Mazda Protege/Familia Sedan Sport 20 twins, the 1994 Mitsubishi FTO GR and the 2003 Mazda Axela 23S.

    For those who do not like to use front-wheel-drive cars or the mid-engined MR2, there aren't a lot of choices that will keep up at GVE, especially if one wants to use the car in the Amateur Cup. The 1982 Toyota Corolla Levin GT-Apex and the non-premium 1991 Mazda MX-5 J-Limited twins (not the heavier Eunos premium version) were the only FR cars I could get into the 1'25.7 range, though I suspect some of the other MX-5s I didn't have on my test list could also get to that range. None of those can get to 380 PP with an oil change, so they are not likely candidates for the Amateur Cup.

    The 1985 Mazda RX-7 GT-Limited twins, which can hit 396 PP/191 hp with an oil change, were almost 2 seconds off the 1997 Civic Type R's pace, at 1'26.561 for the Savanna and 1'26.788 for the RX-7.

    I didn't test the highest-PP sub-$20,000 car, the 1988 Nissan Silvia K's (399 PP/180 hp after an oil change, 115 hp at 350 PP without an oil change), but I tested the slightly newer/more-costly/more-powerful 1991 version (400 PP/184 hp after an oil change, 116 hp at 350 PP without an oil change), and it clocked in at 1'27.272. Similarly, I haven't yet fully tested the 1999 Toyota MR2 Spyder/MR-S S Edition twins, which can hit 383 PP/144 hp with an oil change, but a single mid-1'25 lap in Lucas' (@Gravitron's) group test room, with just a bit of tail-wagging, showed a lot of promise.

    I finally tested the MR2/MR-S, and because of suspension differences, the MR2 is blindingly quick if a bit unstable at the limit, while the MR-S is completely uncontrollable and thus much slower. In fact, I spun the MR-S twice in testing.

    I also put up a Google Docs spreadsheet with the 43 cars I tested, listing the PP, horsepower, weight (in pounds), power-to-weight ratio, whether the car had an oil change or not, the power limiter setting, and the fast lap time at Grand Valley East. The lap times were set in private single-car online tests with the room set to the event regulations and the car set to 0 ABS, 0 traction control and no stability management, and are the best of 5 hot laps.

    Starter cars above $20,000

    Other than the world-beating tuner TRD Celica and the 2002 Toyota MR2 Spyder (3rd-fastest overall at 1'24.652), money doesn't really buy speed at GVE. The 1998 Honda Integra Type R was the third-fastest expensive car at 1'25.015, and not in the top 12 overall. The 1995, 1999 and 2003 Honda Integra Type R, the 2001 Honda Civic Type R, the 1997/1999 Mitsubishi FTO GP Version R, the 2003 Pontiac Vibe GT (yes, a crossover), the 2002 Toyota MR-S V Edition, and the 1998 Toyota Altezza RS200/Lexus IS 200 (J) twins (the fastest FR cars) were the other cars to get under 1'25.6. Given the single-lap 1999 MR2 experience described above, I suspect the 2002 Toyota MR2/MR-S twins would also be in this range.

    The 2002 MR2/MR-S twins had, except for the lack of full 180s in the 2002 MR-S and a bit more control of both, the same experience as the 1999 MR2/MR-S twins. Again, the MR2 comes far more recommended the MR-S, even though the difference in times is much closer.

    With that said, there are more than a few cars that, in theory, can hold their own in all 3 Cups as they can reach at least 405 PP with nothing more than an oil change. Partly because I have become intrigued in the possibility of running a single car, but mostly because I haven't done testing on the Amateur/Novice Cup tracks outside of the 1997 Civic Type R, all I can say is if you plan on going this route, you had best have been testing the last week.

    The "super-cheap" route (i.e. starter cars under $16,000)

    Since there are so few cars that can, even in great hands, credibly run all three series, the odds are to be competitive in all 3 series, most people will be looking at two cars. I've previously touched on most of the starter cars that can run both the Sunday and Amateur Cups. That route would require finding a car that can win or place highly at multiple Novice Cup races that would cost no more than the maximum "regular" winnings of $36,000 possible there, and I haven't done the testing required to see what cars can do that yet.

    There is a second 2-car route - buying a cheap car for the Sunday Cup and a more-capable car for the rest of the series. Again, that will likely require some good racing because one would need to leave the Sunday Cup with more than the $20,000 starting credit, and ideally with at least $25,000, to get something that can credibly run the last 2 Cups.

    The 1990 Honda CR-X ($15,470) is actually a contender for both 2-car routes; it turned GVE at 1'24.699, and with an oil change, it can get to 389 PP/165 hp. The 1982 Toyota Corolla Levin/Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex ($15,360; the Corolla is mentioned above and is 0.13 seconds faster than the Sprinter) and the 1997 Eagle Talon Esi ($15,740) all clocked in under 1'26.0. The true budget-buster, at least among the cars I tested, is the 1970 Honda 1300 Coupe 9 S ($12,800), which lapped GVE at a respectable 1'27.707 and drives a lot more lively than an economy car older than me should.

    Untested cars that, based on power and weight stats, might work as a super-cheap starter car include the 1999 Hyundai Tiburon Turbulence ($14,080), 1988 Nissan Silvia Q's ($15,560), 1988 Nissan EXA (though that is an ugly car at $14,810), 1983 Honda Civic 1500 ($11,890), and the 2000 Toyota Vitz/Yaris RS 1.5 ($14,530).

    A note about "twins"

    As long as Gran Turismo has been around, there have been multiple copies of essentially the same car. A lot of the time, the differences, if they exist, are slight enough to not really matter. Sometimes, however, there are very real differences, as illustrated by the MR2/MR-S twins, where a difference in spring rates is enough to make one car fast and the other undrivable. Another example is the freshly-minted premium Eunos Roadsters versus their non-premium MX-5/Miata counterparts. In short, it pays to look for those differences.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2014
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  20. GTP_Patrick1

    GTP_Patrick1

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    Nice write up and thanks for the info. I have not done near the testing you have done, but it verifies what I have found. Lucas and I were toying with a few cars that will be able to get to the 425 PP and still be at 350 for this week's races. I tried the RX-8 03, this car was slow at GVE, but could work for every other race, cost is about $26,000 so you had to do some of the bonus events.
     
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  21. Eggstor

    Eggstor Premium

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    That strategy is a case of which race(s) one wants to essentially throw away. The RX-8 and SRT4 would be a "throw away" at GVE (with the SRT4 a "throw away" at more tracks in my ham-fisted hands), while I strongly suspect the Integras and TRD Celica would be a "throw away" late in the Novice Cup due to their lack of power.
     
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  22. DasDude

    DasDude

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    You sir, have just made my day :bowdown:
     
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  23. Eggstor

    Eggstor Premium

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    Thanks for the kind words and likes on my guide. I didn't fire up the PS3 yet today (have to catch up on other things), but I started a section for those looking to take a "super-cheap" route on their starter car and looking to upgrade before the Amateur Cup.
     
  24. roamer2629

    roamer2629 Premium

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    Amazing work Steve well done :bowdown:
     
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  25. Gameratwork99

    Gameratwork99

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    Am I able to change the car if I change my mind? I haven't but just wondering.
     
  26. Eggstor

    Eggstor Premium

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    Yes, as long as it is either before the start of a Cup or in between Cups. If it is before the start of the Sunday Cup and you already put your entry on the credit tracker form, PM @hasslemoff with the details, don't go back to the credit tracker.

    I'm back testing, and have a quick note about "twins" in general and the Toyota MR2/MR-S ones in particular - don't assume that "twins" are actually the same car. Some indeed are (the Daihatsu Mira/Cuore come to mind - their slow times are within 0.05 seconds of each other), others are not. Because of spring rate differences, the 1999 and 2002 MR2's are quite drivable (and very quick), while the 1999 and 2002 MR-S's are undrivable. In fact, I looped the 1999 MR-S a couple times.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
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  27. Gameratwork99

    Gameratwork99

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    The reason why I asked is because I chose the premium eunos and after your analysis, I'm having second thoughts.
     
  28. roamer2629

    roamer2629 Premium

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    The MR2 was my original choice, because I thought it was not going to be as popular as others cars, but GVE was out of reach for it. Worked just fine at the other two tracks though.
     
  29. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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    @Eggstor Nothing more to say on the write up :tup::bowdown:, i'm sure many will appreciate it :)

    Thats why you have up to 48 hours to register your car and value after the event, it gives people enough time to add the details if they have a last minute change of mind.
    But please do not use the form if you are changing your mind as it will just charge you again, I would prefer people to not change there mind as i've got to edit a few bits manually so that it all works well behind the scenes ;), but if you have to just send a PM :).
     
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  30. Eggstor

    Eggstor Premium

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    That would be a prudent thing to do. The 1989 Eunos is rated at 5 PP higher than the two 1989 standard MX-5s, and that causes a 5-hp drop at 350 PP for the Eunos versus the standard MX-5s.
    It must be all the practicing at GVE and the wheel allowing me to make the necessary smaller corrections of oversteer, but I got it down to under 1'24.7.

    If you're talking about the 1986 MR2, it is undrivable just like the MR-S. That 1999 MR-S looping came in between running the 2002 MR2 and 1999 MR2, so it's not (hopefully) me figuring out how to drive MR cars, forgetting, then figuring it out again.
     
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