HKS CT230R Tuner or Racer?

[Yev]

You rather like yourself don't you.

Yeah he's wrong but there are more polite ways of telling him that

I do, very much...I just didn't know it is that noticable.
I just can't be bothered explaining obvious things to stupid people.
This thread will get locked soon I bet.

 

[Yev]

From http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_arti...62/hks-ct230r-evo--up-close-and-personal.aspx

...HKS EVO CT230R Time Attack car...

Definition for Time Attack car:

An act of racing against time or a deadline to establish how fast a certain goal can be covered or done.

Enough said.

For those who lack brain cells and still claim that HKS CT230R is a tuner have this in mind:
If a car has been purposely made for Time Trial which is an act of racing - that car automatically becomes a race car, get it?

 

[Tornado]

Rally Cars , DTM´s , GT300/500´s , Super GT´s are more or less modified/tuned Road cars.

The only cars that are remotely like modified/tuned road cars is WRC cars (and this too has waned quite a bit since Group A was dissolved).
DTM models literally share about as much with the road going counterparts as a NASCAR vehicle does. GT300 cars used to be fairly close to road spec, but in the past few years the rulebook has been changed so thoroughly that now the only way you can tell that a car is supposed to be a race version of a road car is because it has the same headlights. GT500 cars haven't been much of anything like road cars since the mid-1990s.

 

[-raVer-]

So a ABT TT-R doesn´t share anything with a Audi TT , A Calsonic GT-R with a Nissan GT-R or a Castrol Supra with a Toyota Supra etc etc?

raVer

 

[Villain]

What exactly do those cars have to do with the HKS CT230R Evo being a tuner or a racer? Besides the fact that they are also race cars which are loosely based on production vehicles (not tuners).

 

[Vitzio]

Now I'm 100% sure and positive it's a racer. Tuners are street legal. Driving a loud racecar without working headlights isn't streetlegal. Hell, dont' even call it an evo, it has the bodyframe of an evo, aspects and performance of a racecar.

 

[Tornado]

So a ABT TT-R doesn´t share anything with a Audi TT,

Nope. All DTM cars since 2000 are bespoke tube frame cars with a body shell that looks like a production car (and not always that much like a production car, as seen with the 2004 Audi A4) put on top.

A Calsonic GT-R with a Nissan GT-R

Before 2003, about the only thing shared between a GT500 Skyline and a road Skyline was the engine block. In 2003 they stopped using the RB engine as well.

or a Castrol Supra with a Toyota Supra etc etc?

Nope.

 

[-raVer-]

What exactly do those cars have to do with the HKS CT230R Evo being a tuner or a racer? Besides the fact that they are also race cars which are loosely based on production vehicles (not tuners).

The CT230R is a tuned EVO VII IMO.

And you say all cars not street legal are race cars , right?

btw I don´t care if someone takes the CT230R in my room if I name it "Tuned cars".
On the other side I got kicked for using this car in the "Super GT" room.


raVer

 

[niky]

Few race series have cars that are actually built from their street models.

WTCC, BTCC, SCCA World Speed Challenge and GT classes, Group N WRC cars, FIA GT3...

All built with the shells of the street going versions, though some manufacturers offer stripped cars specifically for racing, and with the stock engine block and engine placement. Some even require stock brakes and stock suspension mounts and geometry... Making them even less "modified" than the HKS car.

The HKS is much like the Pikes Peak Escudo... Which is also an unlimited class time attack car... But one built for a very specific event.

And no WRC Group A car is road legal. They wouldn't even pass emissions in a third world backwater like here... Special arrangements are simply made so they can be driven between stages.

---

DTM and GT500... the older a series gets, the less relevant it becomes to production class cars... Which is why NASCAR and WRC are a mockery of their former selves... And why they suck as marketing tools.

 

[Villain]

The CT230R is a tuned EVO VII IMO.

Okay, can you give us evidence to the tuning process that an EVO VII went through to become a CT230r?

And you say all cars not street legal are race cars , right?

No, I say that all race cars are race cars. A car that races is a race car regardless of whether or not it is street legal. Many people have street legal Miatas which have undergone performance upgrades/tuning and they will drive them to a track and race them. Those are race cars as well. Thy are not purpose-built race cars like the HKS CT230R. A tuner can very well be a racer, but that does not go both ways and the CT230R does not fit into that category.

btw I don´t care if someone takes the CT230R in my room if I name it "Tuned cars".
On the other side I got kicked for using this car in the "Super GT" room.


raVer

Well, that's your own (and the owner of that other rooms') personal preference. It is also irrelevant to the label of the HKS CT230R Evo being a "tuner" or a "racer."

 

[Zenith]

The CT230R is a tuned EVO VII IMO.
raVer

I'm going to take your logic for a moment...

This...

With its 850 horsepower carbureted 358ci (5.9L) V8 and 4 speed gearbox

Is a tuned version of this

👍

 

[sesselpupser]

Wow, such hostility!

Personally I believe it's a tuner car, just one with a massive, massive budget. Allow me to explain why I believe this.

Any racing category, be it Formula One, NASCAR, FIA GT, Super GT, DTM, BTCC, WTCC, V8 Supercars, Le Mans or WRC, has a set of restrictions governing the weight limits, engine design or output, drivetrain, aero and so on. Cars that are built to enter a specific category has to be built around those restrictions. Any racing car you can think of will have been built to a certain spec.

The CT230R wasn't, though. Well, not really; it entered the Unlimited AWD class, so the restrictions were: It has to be based on a road car, it has to be AWD, but other than that, do what you want. Other good examples of insanely modified cars that still aren't race cars are the Ferrari FXX, Pagani Zonda R, Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo, Amuse Carbon R (cited both because I'm not sure the S2000 had a full carbon fibre re-body like the CT230R and Carbon R).

The CT230R was built to race, but it was built to race in an event known as an opportunity for tuning companies to show off what they can do without limits. So, yeah, it's a racing car, in the same way that my old Renault Clio could have been a racing car if I'd entered it in a race. It was still a shopping car, though.

This is just how I see it, but I hope you understand my logic. To say it's a tuned Evo is quite abstract, but that doesn't make it a racing car.

Also it's just regarded as an incredibly extreme tuner car. This guy seems to think so, anyway, and knowing about stuff about this is his job:

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009/07/01/car-feature-gt-gt-the-hks-ct230r-evo.aspx

 

[stanong11]

Wow, such hostility!

Personally I believe it's a tuner car, just one with a massive, massive budget. Allow me to explain why I believe this.

Any racing category, be it Formula One, NASCAR, FIA GT, Super GT, DTM, BTCC, WTCC, V8 Supercars, Le Mans or WRC, has a set of restrictions governing the weight limits, engine design or output, drivetrain, aero and so on. Cars that are built to enter a specific category has to be built around those restrictions. Any racing car you can think of will have been built to a certain spec.

The CT230R wasn't, though. Well, not really; it entered the Unlimited AWD class, so the restrictions were: It has to be based on a road car, it has to be AWD, but other than that, do what you want. Other good examples of insanely modified cars that still aren't race cars are the Ferrari FXX, Pagani Zonda R, Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo, Amuse Carbon R (cited both because I'm not sure the S2000 had a full carbon fibre re-body like the CT230R and Carbon R).

The CT230R was built to race, but it was built to race in an event known as an opportunity for tuning companies to show off what they can do without limits. So, yeah, it's a racing car, in the same way that my old Renault Clio could have been a racing car if I'd entered it in a race. It was still a shopping car, though.

This is just how I see it, but I hope you understand my logic. To say it's a tuned Evo is quite abstract, but that doesn't make it a racing car.

Also it's just regarded as an incredibly extreme tuner car. This guy seems to think so, anyway, and knowing about stuff about this is his job:

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009/07/01/car-feature-gt-gt-the-hks-ct230r-evo.aspx

Upz!!

 

[stanong11]

It should be categorised under tuner car, just like you would call a MP4-26 an F1 car, WRC2001 a rally car, Xanavi Nismo Z a Super GT etc.

 

[freedomweasel]

WTCC, BTCC, SCCA World Speed Challenge and GT classes, Group N WRC cars, FIA GT3...[/b]

World Challenge, FIA, and (I think) Continental Challenge is pretty much what I had in mind. I guess "few" relative. I wasn't aware the touring cars and WRC cars had much in common at all. I'll have to check that out. 👍

edit: When I said few, I was thinking of televised, well known series. If you go down into SCCA spec classes, I'd bet the balance shifts the opposite direction and makes my claim of "few" incredibly wrong.

On the otherhand, I personally wouldn't call any of these cars "tuned" versions of their street cars. They're a bit more than that. Some of the more extreme cars at autocrosses, or heavily modified track cars, are "tuned". Cars built for specific events, or built to specific rules, just seem a bit more than that.

 

[Villain]

Wow, such hostility!

Personally I believe it's a tuner car, just one with a massive, massive budget. Allow me to explain why I believe this.

Okay.

Any racing category, be it Formula One, NASCAR, FIA GT, Super GT, DTM, BTCC, WTCC, V8 Supercars, Le Mans or WRC, has a set of restrictions governing the weight limits, engine design or output, drivetrain, aero and so on. Cars that are built to enter a specific category has to be built around those restrictions. Any racing car you can think of will have been built to a certain spec.

I'm with you...

The CT230R wasn't, though. Well, not really; it entered the Unlimited AWD class, so the restrictions were: It has to be based on a road car, it has to be AWD, but other than that, do what you want.

That is a blatant condradiction there, sir. You said it wasn't built to any specifications, but then listed the ones it was built to.

Other good examples of insanely modified cars that still aren't race cars are the Ferrari FXX, Pagani Zonda R, Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo, Amuse Carbon R (cited both because I'm not sure the S2000 had a full carbon fibre re-body like the CT230R and Carbon R).

I see the similarities, but I disagree. Those are not purpose-built time attack cars like the HKS CT230R Evo.

The CT230R was built to race, but it was built to race in an event known as an opportunity for tuning companies to show off what they can do without limits.

I don't know, man. That sure sounds like a race car to me.

So, yeah, it's a racing car, in the same way that my old Renault Clio could have been a racing car if I'd entered it in a race. It was still a shopping car, though.

It's also a racing car in the same way that a Suzuki Escudo Dirt Trial Car is a race car, and a Ferrari F10, and a NASCAR Impala, etc. A race car is a race car, period. This has been established throughout the many pages of this thread.

This is just how I see it, but I hope you understand my logic. To say it's a tuned Evo is quite abstract, but that doesn't make it a racing car.

It's not a tuned Evo, and it is a race car. I don't understand how your logic brought you to the conclusion that this is a "tuner." You said it many times that this is a race car. I am not following you at all. You're admitting that it's a race car but your "logic" points you to tuner?

Also it's just regarded as an incredibly extreme tuner car. This guy seems to think so, anyway, and knowing about stuff about this is his job:

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009/07/01/car-feature-gt-gt-the-hks-ct230r-evo.aspx

Yes, this link has been referrenced many times on this thread. If you want to debate the finer points, find them in this thread.

 

[McLaren]

The only cars that are remotely like modified/tuned road cars is WRC cars (and this too has waned quite a bit since Group A was dissolved).
DTM models literally share about as much with the road going counterparts as a NASCAR vehicle does. GT300 cars used to be fairly close to road spec, but in the past few years the rulebook has been changed so thoroughly that now the only way you can tell that a car is supposed to be a race version of a road car is because it has the same headlights. GT500 cars haven't been much of anything like road cars since the mid-1990s.

IIRC, GT500 cars now-a-days are pretty much just production car shells thrown over a pre-built chassis. Sort of like Nascar & DTM for Japan.

 

[sesselpupser]

That is a blatant condradiction there, sir. You said it wasn't built to any specifications, but then listed the ones it was built to.

Are you aware of the restrictions placed on other racing series? Can you really compare the restrictions of, say, WRC cars to 'based on a production car, AWD, but do whatever you want to it'? You're splitting very fine, very pedantic hairs.

Also it could be said that the only restriction is that it's based on a production car (which isn't exactly a restriction either); they could have converted an AWD Evo to RWD and entered it in the RWD Unlimited class if they wanted. Also note the fact that the class is called 'Unlimited', as in 'no limits'.


I see the similarities, but I disagree. Those are not purpose-built time attack cars like the HKS CT230R Evo.

What does it matter why the car was built? I'm not 100%, but I'm sure you'll find other tuning companies entering cars they'd already built for whatever other reason. I doubt everyone who enters the time attack events does so with cars built expressly for that purpose, so do they become racing cars?


I don't know, man. That sure sounds like a race car to me.

No, it sounds like the opposite. Every other type of racing has restrictions to keep things even and fair, so that races are actual races. If the restrictions for F1 were to be loosened to 'it has to look like an F1 car and have an engine in the middle', would you call the resulting imbalance a 'race'? Probably not, unless you were trying to win an internet argument. History has plenty of examples of cars that were banned after totally destroying the competition, why do you think that is?


It's also a racing car in the same way that a Suzuki Escudo Dirt Trial Car is a race car, and a Ferrari F10, and a NASCAR Impala, etc. A race car is a race car, period. This has been established throughout the many pages of this thread.

It's not a tuned Evo, and it is a race car. I don't understand how your logic brought you to the conclusion that this is a "tuner." You said it many times that this is a race car. I am not following you at all. You're admitting that it's a race car but your "logic" points you to tuner?

Racing a race car and racing a tuner car are different things.


Yes, this link has been referrenced many times on this thread. If you want to debate the finer points, find them in this thread.

No. You'll never admit you're wrong and neither will I, we both know this topic is far too irrelevant for that. It's also too irrelevant for me to be bothered to quote you properly, but I trust you'll work out which part is something you said and which part is something I said.

 

[Terronium-12]

Wow, such hostility!

Personally I believe it's a tuner car, just one with a massive, massive budget. Allow me to explain why I believe this.

Any racing category, be it Formula One, NASCAR, FIA GT, Super GT, DTM, BTCC, WTCC, V8 Supercars, Le Mans or WRC, has a set of restrictions governing the weight limits, engine design or output, drivetrain, aero and so on. Cars that are built to enter a specific category has to be built around those restrictions. Any racing car you can think of will have been built to a certain spec.

The CT230R wasn't, though. Well, not really; it entered the Unlimited AWD class, so the restrictions were: It has to be based on a road car, it has to be AWD, but other than that, do what you want. Other good examples of insanely modified cars that still aren't race cars are the Ferrari FXX, Pagani Zonda R, Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo, Amuse Carbon R (cited both because I'm not sure the S2000 had a full carbon fibre re-body like the CT230R and Carbon R).

The CT230R was built to race, but it was built to race in an event known as an opportunity for tuning companies to show off what they can do without limits. So, yeah, it's a racing car, in the same way that my old Renault Clio could have been a racing car if I'd entered it in a race. It was still a shopping car, though.

This is just how I see it, but I hope you understand my logic. To say it's a tuned Evo is quite abstract, but that doesn't make it a racing car.

Also it's just regarded as an incredibly extreme tuner car. This guy seems to think so, anyway, and knowing about stuff about this is his job:

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009/07/01/car-feature-gt-gt-the-hks-ct230r-evo.aspx

I just want you to know I stopped reading after you mentioned the FXX and Zonda R. What next, the CCGT?

 

[JDMsk8r]

Man You think this thread would've been closed already.

 

[Zenith]

It should be categorised under tuner car, just like you would call a MP4-26 an F1 car, WRC2001 a rally car, Xanavi Nismo Z a Super GT etc.

So a WRC2001 was meant to race in a rally, a Xanavi Z is meant to race in a Super GT race, and a MP4-26 was meant to race in F1

The CT230R was meant to race in Time Attack, which is (inarguably) a race. Therefore, like the WRC2001, Xanavi Z, and MP4-26, it is a racing car.

Any racing category, be it Formula One, NASCAR, FIA GT, Super GT, DTM, BTCC, WTCC, V8 Supercars, Le Mans or WRC, has a set of restrictions governing the weight limits, engine design or output, drivetrain, aero and so on. Cars that are built to enter a specific category has to be built around those restrictions. Any racing car you can think of will have been built to a certain spec.

The CT230R wasn't, though. Well, not really; it entered the Unlimited AWD class, so the restrictions were: It has to be based on a road car, it has to be AWD, but other than that, do what you want. Other good examples of insanely modified cars that still aren't race cars are the Ferrari FXX, Pagani Zonda R, Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo, Amuse Carbon R (cited both because I'm not sure the S2000 had a full carbon fibre re-body like the CT230R and Carbon R).

The CT230R was built to race, but it was built to race in an event known as an opportunity for tuning companies to show off what they can do without limits. So, yeah, it's a racing car, in the same way that my old Renault Clio could have been a racing car if I'd entered it in a race. It was still a shopping car, though.

The restriction point...

You just listed the restrictions.

That Clio point...

The Clio and the CT230R are completely different in their design. The Clio is a road car because it was built specifically for use by people like you and me on the road. If it had entered a race, it would've been a road car that had participated in a race, not a race car. The CT230R however was specifically built to race and only race. It was a race car before it ever raced in an event.

 

[HumanDestroyah]

What does this thread remind me of...? I remember now!!!

It's totally a racecar anyhow. I wanted to lean toward tuner at first because it screams tuner, but when you boil the car down to it's roots it really is a racecar.​

 

[GTP_roadrunner]

Why are people claiming this thread to be already closed? I say until this debate is running in a halfways normal direction with no offending the other side, it HAS it's right to exist. By the way, I voted as "tuner" at the very beginning, but thanks to a few posts "from the other side" which really make sense, I'm not that sure than at the beginning.

I'm ok if there's more to come..

 

[Yev]

This debate will end when the poll starts showing the right results.

 

[pampsu]

This thread has been an interesting read since so many lobbies have these restrictions and I'm not always sure if my car fits the regulations.
What I've learned here: It is a tuner because it is based on Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VIII . It is also built only for race purpose so call it a race car. If you build an amazing tuner it automatically becomes a racer too.

 

[GTP_roadrunner]

This debate will end when the poll starts showing the right results.

...or the results YOU want to see as "right"? Come on, if there already had been onehundred percent evidence for/against, aka facts, this thread already'd been closed.

 

[Yev]

...or the results YOU want to see as "right"? Come on, if there already had been onehundred percent evidence for/against, aka facts, this thread already'd been closed.

From http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_arti...62/hks-ct230r-evo--up-close-and-personal.aspx

...HKS EVO CT230R Time Attack car...

Definition for Time Attack car:

An act of racing against time or a deadline to establish how fast a certain goal can be covered or done.

Enough said.

If a car has been purposely made for Time Trial which is an act of racing - that car automatically becomes a race car, get it?

Facts that HKS CT230R is a race car.
Do you guys know what a tuner is? Look at Amuse 350Z Super Leggera or S2000 GT1, those are tuners.

 

[Yev]

*Sigh* PS3 browser...
There are no facts posted here which would support the theory that HKS CT230R is a tuner. Only the game (GT5) classes it as tuner, puts it in tuner races, it's cheaper than race cars and it comes on sport softs - that's your only argument in this debate, an error within GT5.
People go on and on about how HKS is a tuning company and how Lancer Evolution is a street car, OK I say, now why don't people claim that GT500, DTM, WRC (etc.) cars are tuners too?
C'mon...

 

[pk_090]

its was made by HKS for its main purpose to be a time attack car.
i quote

"A time attack is another term for time trial. The term is commonly used in Japan for individual time trial events for motor vehicles that involves a vehicle running around the circuit in lieu of a qualifying lap and the term is widely adopted outside the country for tuner event and media.

Motorsport

Time Attack (alternatively known as Super Lap or Tuner Battles) originated in Japan when the tuning media organized the event on race circuits such as Tsukuba Circuit, where it commonly occurs, as a proving ground for street tuned cars built at a large budget by highly respected tuning companies. As a result of the quick rise in popularity, tuners developed cars especially to use to beat the competition,[1] including the purpose built HKS CT230R Lancer Evolution, with its body made entirely out of carbon fiber. The Lancer Evo is the OEM chassis Time Attack record holder at Tsukuba which it still holds to this day."

hence a tuning company building a motorsport car.

 

[freedomweasel]

...including the purpose built HKS CT230R Lancer Evolution...

hence a tuning company building a motorsport car.

👍

If a car is "purpose built" for a series, event, etc, I don't see how it could be anything else but a "race car". It is a car built with the intention to race.