How many cars should GT6 have?

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The last thing I feel GT needs to focus on is cars. The entire game needs an overhaul, on all fronts. Car count is pointless if the game doesn't even make use of 95% of them.
 
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You know what actually makes no sense? Thinking Sony would just abandon the PS3 the instant the PS4 comes out; which at this point is, again, at the very least 2 years away. Especially when no other developer seems to be abandoning the system right now and it's still shifting in large numbers.
Who said they would? I never said that.

Of course Sony are not going to abandon the PS3 once PS4 releases, but are you really insinuating that once a PS4 comes out, Sony would rather have GT6 on PS3? This makes no sense whatsoever. Why the heck would you put your largest and most important IP on an old system? How is that going to help the PS4, exactly?

Toronado
That's quite a sliding scale there:
SimonK
I mean what If the PS4 comes out and then Kaz has a 'vision' for something that it can't do? Do we let him off the hook and let him wait for the PS5 which can do it?
This is not about "Kaz's vision" crap; this is about the PS3 being fundamentally unable to do what Polyphony want it to do. I mean goodness me, alpha that runs at 1/16th resolution should be proof enough of that.

SimonK
If it is you should tell Rockstar they're wasting their time developing GTA V for it
How is that situation even comparable?

GTA V has been in development for a long time, with the goal of releasing on PS3 and 360; GT6 on the other hand will have only started development sometime in 2011, and in fact, even as recently as a few months ago, Shuhei Yoshida told us that PD's next game is still in concepting, and will take a few years.

When Rockstar finish GTA V, do you think they're going to stick with 360 and PS3? No, they are not, because GTA VI will take many years to finish, and by the time it is finished, new hardware will be in full swing.

It's the same with GT6. It's going to take a long time to make. By the time it's finished, why on Earth would it be on PS3? What would be the point of Sony developing a PS4, if they're just going to stick their largest and most important franchise on an old system? This doesn't make any sense.
 
deep_sky
This is not about "Kaz's vision" crap; this is about the PS3 being fundamentally unable to do what Polyphony want it to do.

I'm not understanding this.
I remember Kaz saying PS4 cars on a PS3 system. Also the Nurb with 24hr time change is superb.

What more does Kaz want out of the system?
I'm sure improved sound could be done. It's just PD is poor at its sound. I'm sure the Paint chip system could be made better this gen.

Fundamentally PD have more than proved the PS3 can attempt a decent GT. FPS is a bit shakey I will admit.
 
I'm not understanding this.

[Hilariously] low resolution alpha
PCF shadow filtering
Colour banding (to attempt to preserve frame rate)
Lower poly cars in-game
Tearing
Fame drops
Awful loading times

These things occur in GT5 for a reason: because the PS3 is not capable of running them how Polyphony want. If they stick with PS3, these issues are still going to be present. Only new hardware will solve these issues.

Once again, I do not disagree at all - and in fact have said a few times in other posts - that the game part of GT is a big issue, and no, Polyphony do not need new hardware to improve that situation.

But with the current concoction of new consoles coming soon, Polyphony taking an age to do anything and the PS3 being unable to deliver performance that Polyphony want, I see little reason in sticking with the PS3.
 
TokoTurismo
So what was the point of GT5 being on the PS3 then if all those problems occurred in it? :confused:

I haven't got a clue? I was just addressing deeps statement about PS3 not being up to scratch for GT.
Personally I think its just not finished, it's obvious. The things they got right are superb. They just needed more of it. It's inconsistent.
I know the PS3 isn't all that bad.
 
This is not about "Kaz's vision" crap; this is about the PS3 being fundamentally unable to do what Polyphony want it to do. I mean goodness me, alpha that runs at 1/16th resolution should be proof enough of that.

What about the PS1 and PS2? Could that do what they wanted to do? No, but it didn't stop them making the most of it and creating great games. I don't understand why people are suddenly suggesting the PS3 is awful hardware and was never good enough for what PD wanted. It's better than PS1/2 and they did what they could.
How is that situation even comparable?

GTA V has been in development for a long time, with the goal of releasing on PS3 and 360; GT6 on the other hand will have only started development sometime in 2011, and in fact, even as recently as a few months ago, Shuhei Yoshida told us that PD's next game is still in concepting, and will take a few years.

When Rockstar finish GTA V, do you think they're going to stick with 360 and PS3? No, they are not, because GTA VI will take many years to finish, and by the time it is finished, new hardware will be in full swing.

It's the same with GT6. It's going to take a long time to make. By the time it's finished, why on Earth would it be on PS3? What would be the point of Sony developing a PS4, if they're just going to stick their largest and most important franchise on an old system? This doesn't make any sense.

All of this is still based on rumours and leaks. Until Sony announce another console we don't know when it's coming.
 
They would be foolish to announce a new console soon. It would kill off Xmas sales of PS3's/Xboxes I would imagine.
 
I would be more than happy with 3 to 5 hundred premium models, but with more variants this time. Keep the 800 standards, but upgrade them visually to at least a good standard.
 
Spagetti69
I know the PS3 isn't all that bad. [...]Personally I think its just not finished, it's obvious
The PS3 isn't bad, Polyphony just pushed the bar too high trying to cram everything in. That is why there are complaints about the shadows, about the tearing, about the pixelation, etc.

While the whole game is obviously not finished, parts of the game are. I think we'd all agree that the Nurburgring is finished, and that the weather system is finished (Kaz said in '09 that weather was finished anyway). Yet combine the two, and it induces big problems, like the aforementioned tearing and pixelation, as well as the rain just not looking too hot.

That 16 months after launch they have still not been fixed, shows that they cannot be fixed. You cannot magically boost alpha resolution, just like you cannot magically find extra resources for shadows. This will not change if GT6 is on PS3.

SimonK
What about the PS1 and PS2? Could that do what they wanted to do?
As above, on PS1 and PS2, they did not attempt to break the bank with features like real-time weather change, real-time time change, they did not have alpha-intensive effects and nor were they planning for next generation like they obviously are with GT5 and its assets and effects.
 
There's nothing completely "finished" in a racing simulator. Everything can always be improved and everything is constantly being updated, or at least PD's competition and PC sims do.

Take the Nordschleife for example. It is still off in some parts and trees are still laughable, but most importantly the elevation changes are very, very badly made. That's an issue with all tracks, particularly the ones that weren't updated for GT5 such as suzuka and laguna seca. Racing tracks feel like rollercoasters in real life and in sims, not dull like in GT5.
The second most important issue with tracks is adding all the bumps that are in real life, and add some more in the fantasy ones. That's simply crucial.
To fix both issues it is required to remake all the tracks and fiddle with the game's engine and fov extensively, therefore "finishing" them.

Weather in GT5 is also nowhere near reality, though it's somewhat a good effort in comparison to other games. Most probably it doesn't need to be re done or perfected right now since no one in the industry cares about that, so PD would be better off focusing on modelling standard to premium cars instead.
Only problem is I don't see why weather change isn't featured in all tracks. Furthermore, it is accessible for some tracks (tsukuba and TGTT as far as I know) in only some parts of the game but not at all times, which again is an issue that affects GT5 in general (for example not being allowed to play toscana tarmac of GT5 1.00 anymore).

In the end it's clear 99% of GT5's problems aren't related to PS3's hardware and software. Also there's still lots of room to make some sacrifices for GT6 for example, such as lowering the resolution near 720p like almost all other games do.
 
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PD is a joke. The cow-milking call-of-duty of driving simulators. (No wait that's an insult to activision, at least COD can take less than 6-years between copy & pasting one game title to the next)

All this GT6 talk is non-sense considering that GT5 was never truly "new" when it came down to engineering and designing most of the vehicles in the game. Plus their servers need more maintenance & monitoring than they are currently willing to put into it as well.

Copy & Paste is the name of the game.

I see All premiums in the new one. (Primarily GT5 cars dumped over onto GT6)
More international tracks
Same customization (Full of JDM/euro wheels)
More idiotic B-spec
More hours logged for less results
Same sound engineering (Worse than any racing game in the genre)

They could use the current platform and make a mends by dropping a new GT in 2013, or better yet fix/update the current garbage version to atleast allow players to feel as though a pulse exist at PD and stop ignoring their supporters who for the most part worship and applaud the incompetency that goes on within PD.

Seems the P.C. really is the way to go when it comes to simulators. I'm sure the lazy folks over at PD will prove it when the P.C.-based PS4-console drops.
 
SimonK
What about the PS1 and PS2? Could that do what they wanted to do? No, but it didn't stop them making the most of it and creating great games. I don't understand why people are suddenly suggesting the PS3 is awful hardware and was never good enough for what PD wanted. It's better than PS1/2 and they did what they could.

All of this is still based on rumours and leaks. Until Sony announce another console we don't know when it's coming.

You only need a brain in your head to realise that the PS4 will be here in, at the most, 2 years.
 
As a forum, there should be a policy that the OP gets a "Here's what you've missed section." Seeing debates go on for pages and pages without progress is tiring. The page numbers simulate progress though :-)
 
You only need a brain in your head to realise that the PS4 will be here in, at the most, 2 years.

Funnily enough, I do have a brain in my head, and I still can't imagine a set of circumstances that makes it so "obvious" that the PS4 will definitely be out two years from today that the response to the idea that it wont warrants such a smartass response on the matter from you.

Who said they would? I never said that.
It's implied. Heavily. Otherwise, it goes back to the question of why it makes any difference outside of us not being able to play a GT game in the however many years it takes PD to get a GT game out on PS4. Because there certainly isn't any direct link I can think of to having GT6 on PS3 and waiting longer for a PS4 GT. Because, again, we either wait 3-5 years for a PS4 GT game that is GT6, or we wait 3-5 years for a PS4 GT game that is GT7.

Of course Sony are not going to abandon the PS3 once PS4 releases, but are you really insinuating that once a PS4 comes out, Sony would rather have GT6 on PS3? This makes no sense whatsoever. Why the heck would you put your largest and most important IP on an old system? How is that going to help the PS4, exactly?
Are you really insinuating that for the 2-3years of perfectly healthy shelf-life the PS3 has, Sony won't want a Gran Turismo game on it? That Sony would allow GT5 to have a dwindling life cycle of 5 years+ while PD gets a jumpstart that they would probably squander anyway modeling the letters on seatbelt releases? And that, since PD wouldn't bother making a second GT game on the PS3 as per your assumptions, that that somehow automatically implies that we will get one sooner (first two years) in the PS4's life cycle?

I don't consider it a joke. What's funny about it? Are we pointing and laughing at the poor kid with a deformity, or something?
Actually, yeah. A lot of people are laughing at PD already over the issue. One doesn't need to even leave this site to see it.


I was talking about texture quality, isn't that another "joke"?
I've played with livery editors on inferior hardware to what you've just listed (NASCAR Racing, on a DX4-100, for example), I know that's not an issue. I'm sure Charles Babbage could have made a livery editor, had he been so inclined; the problem is not a functional one. It certainly has no bearing on the inclusion of Standards in the next game, which I hope won't be necessary.
It's interesting, because you seem to have merged two completely seperate responses into one. I was asking for some kind of quantifiable proof that the PS3 could not handle a livery editor along the lines of Forza's when it was capable of being done on far weaker hardware. Not a tangent on what it means for Standard cars.

That 16 months after launch they have still not been fixed, shows that they cannot be fixed.

Correlation does not equal causation. There are a lot of things PD haven't fixed about GT5, but that doesn't mean that they can't.
 
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I also have a brain in my head, and I will wager 2+ years before we see ps4. And even longer til we see a GT game on ps4.

Again, it is the same as anyone elses speculation at this point. Just rambling.
 
Maybee it will be longer for a gt game to be released, but I will bet my last penny that the PS4 (orbis) will be released either on or before Xmas 2013.
 
So you honestly believe that the PS4 will not be out in 2 years?

I dunno. Is it worth actually debating it with you, or are you going pull a One Sane Man and waste my time since it's apparently so obvious to you that you feel the need to insult people over it for disagreeing.
 
Toronado
I dunno. Is it worth actually debating it with you, or are you going pull a One Sane Man and waste my time since it's apparently so obvious to you that you feel the need to insult people over it for disagreeing.

I didn't mean to insult you or anyone else, and I apologise if I did. I just can't understand how anybody can believe that PD (a company so strung up on time restraints :confused: ) would spend time and money developing a title that wouldn't be as they wanted it to be, knowing full well that a new system is on the way.
 
700 premiums, then lots of dlc. Maybe more if forza catches up.

If only!:drool:

As I posted a while back, 500 seems very possible and realistic. But if PD remains so eccentric in their desire to model every interior stitch, then we will see a decline in the premium count and likely a decline in fans.
 
Actually, yeah. A lot of people are laughing at PD already over the issue. One doesn't need to even leave this site to see it.

I don't really see how that means I shouldn't be able to use cars that already drive well enough in the current game, in the next game; especially when said game will, by Kaz's admission, make use of the current game's underpinnings.
It's interesting, because you seem to have merged two completely seperate responses into one. I was asking for some kind of quantifiable proof that the PS3 could not handle a livery editor along the lines of Forza's when it was capable of being done on far weaker hardware. Not a tangent on what it means for Standard cars.

I never said it couldn't handle it. My response was to a reasoning that Standards cannot be included if a livery editor is included because of some imagined limitation with polygons. I was stating it would be low-quality for all cars, due to low texture resolution.

It's not like you to trip up like that; it's usual for you to be accusing others of not reading properly. I can't imagine what you think it was I was trying to prove...
 
Maybee it will be longer for a gt game to be released, but I will bet my last penny that the PS4 (orbis) will be released either on or before Xmas 2013.

Explain why you believe this. Let me first remind you that the PS4/'orbis' are officially confirmed by Sony.
 
I'd go about 650 PREMIUM cars (no standard)

with the 1035 or-so cars in GT5, only about 220 were premium. sad...
 
SimonK
Explain why you believe this. Let me first remind you that the PS4/'orbis' are officially confirmed by Sony.

I think I have already been into this.

Microsoft have sent out developers kits, so just by sending them out you have to accept that the next gen Xbox is just around the corner. Agree?

Sony lost out big time on sales because of their slow release on the PS3. Do you agree on this?

If you was the person in Charge would you delay again? Would you risk the losses? This leads me to my next point.

Sony has just announced losses of just over 6 billion. Now you may say that a company like Sony are able to absorb such losses, but Sony is a company worth around 17 billion. That represents about 30% of their total worth. No company can stand that kind of loss. As a result Kazuo Hirai has said that sony is to cut the production of their TV's by half, because they make huge losses. Adversely they are concentrating on digital media, gaming and mobiles, in that order.

Back to microsoft, the recent leaks are that the next processor is going to be massive. Something like a 16 core, mainly because the next gen kinect needs 4 cores, because it's reported to be able to read posture and the outer extremities (fingers). Although these are leaks, and not set in stone, it does seem doable, mainly because a 16 core processor was released in November, alongside the fact the the kinect was designed beyond the current capabilities of the 360, and so dumbed down, again if you repute this search online.

So the fact that Sony, If they have any sense, will not make the same mistake as the did with the release of the PS3, means that they are going to have to release within the next two years, and it's going to have to be quite a bit better that the PS3, not that there is anything wrong with the PS3, I LOVE MY PS3.

So if you was a developer would you start work on a new game for the PS3 or the next gen Playstation?

As for the argument that nobody will buy a PS4 for GT6. Did you buy a PS3 for GT5? If not then there is no reason that you wouldn't buy a PS4, if you did, then there is also no reason not to buy a PS4.

I understand that some people will pick bones in my post, and maybe rightly so, but there is no denying that there is a next generation not too far away, and I for one am very exited to see a perfect GT on a system that is capable of better than the current generation of playstation is capable of. Why the rush? Let PD perfect it, Sony rushed them with GT5, and looked how that turned out. The online section is horrible, maybe you could say its because it's PD's first venture into the world of online coding. Maybe not.


The games that were mentioned before, being released this year or next, have been in development for at least a year, maybe more. That's why their out for the PS3.

Well there we are, my case for a next gen console within 2 years. I understand that this may not be to everyone's reasoning, but to my mind, it's logical.
 
I don't really see how that means I shouldn't be able to use cars that already drive well enough in the current game, in the next game; especially when said game will, by Kaz's admission, make use of the current game's underpinnings.

This is actually a response to a post a bit before this one, but: I miss some GT2 cars too, but I'm still happy with the overall decision to drop them from GT3 and focus on a smaller lineup that was all held to roughly the same level of consistent quality. The divide between Standards and Premiums is large, not just from a visual standpoint, and while there's plenty of golden rides that I might lose out on if they're dropped, I'd rather that than see the same recycled models and outdated methods showing up in a game well over a decade after they were created. This applies for me whether GT6 shows up on PS3 or the next-generation, and really, it'd be even more laughable if PS2-era anything shows up there.

The inclusion of Standards still smells of placing more importance on the roster totals than on the quality found within, to me. I can totally understand the reasoning behind them, and I can even understand some of the arguments in their favour, but I still believe if any other franchise pulled this sort of half-baked plan, on a game that was in development for half a decade, and used these last-gen assets to make up the majority of the car lineup, it'd be deservedly ragged on. Doing it twice? Oh dear.

Plus (and I'm sure I sound like a broken record by now), there's still the hard-to-answer question about how the Standards interact with GT5's physics engine. It's safe to assume the current engine takes into account more variables than GT4's did, so for all those new values, that were plugged into a Premium model from its inception, can we ever know for sure how those values were dealt with for the Standards? Did they already have them, grabbing more info than they needed at the time of GT4's creation? Did they revisit the cars? It's an issue I've still wanted to look into further, but as there's no easy way to check it in game, it's sort of hard to come to any conclusions.

I never said it couldn't handle it. My response was to a reasoning that Standards cannot be included if a livery editor is included because of some imagined limitation with polygons. I was stating it would be low-quality for all cars, due to low texture resolution.

Hmmm, most of GT5's Premiums have a higher texture resolution than FM4's cars can manage. I know the WRC Impreza, for example, has clearer, more defined stickers when viewed close up than most of the liveries I've downloaded or constructed. The memory limitation may cause problems if we ever had to deal with multiple layers while creating liveries, sure, but I'm not sure it'd really be a problem for finished ones. Depending on how PD handled the entire procedure, of course.



Again, as thoroughly thought out as that may seem to you, it's still just that - your own reasoning. Until Sony confirms anything, there is literally nothing concrete about the next generation, other than they do infact intend to continue in the gaming world (and thank goodness for that).

As for the argument that nobody will buy a PS4 for GT6. Did you buy a PS3 for GT5? If not then there is no reason that you wouldn't buy a PS4, if you did, then there is also no reason not to buy a PS4.

I imagine a lot of people who bought the system, had to wait years for the promised game, and then were disappointed with it, may be a bit hesitant to do the same on what will undoubtedly be just as pricey a system (at least originally).

I understand that some people will pick bones in my post, and maybe rightly so, but there is no denying that there is a next generation not too far away, and I for one am very exited to see a perfect GT on a system that is capable of better than the current generation of playstation is capable of.[/QUOTE]

Perfect?

Why the rush? Let PD perfect it, Sony rushed them with GT5, and looked how that turned out. The online section is horrible, maybe you could say its because it's PD's first venture into the world of online coding. Maybe not.

"Rushed" is a bit of a misnomer. Kaz went on record saying he could release the game "at any time"... nearly a year before it was actually released (which was, as we all remember, after an 11th hour delay, because PD couldn't wrap it up then either). After the release, he said he wanted two more years. That's quite a different tune to sing.


Well there we are, my case for a next gen console within 2 years. I understand that this may not be to everyone's reasoning, but to my mind, it's logical.

It's logical, in the sense you use one conveniently held personal belief to validate a further one, and so on and so forth. Again, not arguing with it, as it makes sense in a self-contained way, but it is far from concrete.

...

Anywho, I'll re-iterate that I still think 500 cars is a nice round number to hit for GT6, with the caveat that they all hit the level of detail we currently see in Premiums. The poly counts are plenty good in my eyes, the textures could always be redone in higher resolution (depending on which system the next game ends up on), but as they stand, the best Premiums are still some of the best-modelled cars in any game, so give us an improved tuning infrastructure, or even better, more options akin to an actual dealership, and I'd be more than happy, even if we did lose a few of the gems of GT4 (though, that never has to be permanent, thanks to DLC).
 
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