Is everything just faster?

[Voodoovaj]

You're running race soft tyres. Grp3 & 4 on line is race hard.

I'm comparing the same car and the same set up.

To compare Lago Maggiore Sport Mode times, my previous best was in the viper at a mid 2:09. I had tried the viper versus the Scirocco at the time and I was faster in the viper. Today, I ran a mid 2:05 in the Scirocco. 4 seconds is a MASSIVE difference. Sure, I could have gotten the viper into the 2:08's, but the 2:05's?...not likely.

4 seconds of increase on a 2 minute lap is MAHOOOSIVE! That's like 200hp or the difference between a Sports Soft tire and Racing super soft tire. And, on the point of tires, prior to 1.06, the difference in tires made sense. RS tires gave you a little extra grip, but they weren't ridiculous. Now, bring in the clowns.

 

[Stotty]

I'm comparing the same car and the same set up.

To compare Lago Maggiore Sport Mode times, my previous best was in the viper at a mid 2:09. I had tried the viper versus the Scirocco at the time and I was faster in the viper. Today, I ran a mid 2:05 in the Scirocco. 4 seconds is a MASSIVE difference. Sure, I could have gotten the viper into the 2:08's, but the 2:05's?...not likely.

Surely the point is whether the grip levels, on realistic tyres, are realistic, to the point they give realistic lap times c.f. real cars on real tracks?

Whether the new grip levels allow faster laps than before isn't relevant unless you believe the grip levels were correct before the change.

 

[PzR Slim]

Doesn't give you much confidence they have got any clue what they are doing with their physics/handling model when they make changes that have such a dramatic effect. If they have it right now just how did they get it so wrong to start with?

 

[DaveTheStalker]

Front wheel drive cars still have no problem washing the front end out with Racing tires.

Maybe Lewis told them, “you NEED to add more grip to the tires” (tyres for y’all’s over yonder)?

 

[Sean Renon]

I view alien times as the reference. No matter how good i feel my lap time is they go to prove there is always more to be found. I feel great if i can within 3-5 seconds. For me they are motivation.

I've been doing the same.
If I can be within 2 seconds of the #1 top 10 time I'm very happy.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Surely the point is whether the grip levels, on realistic tyres, are realistic, to the point they give realistic lap times c.f. real cars on real tracks?

Whether the new grip levels allow faster laps than before isn't relevant unless you believe the grip levels were correct before the change.

Well, I can only respond based on real life on motorcycles. A full slick racing tire is good for a second a lap, maybe 2, over a soft street tire (like a track day tire) on a track where the laps are about 2 minutes.

So, for a car on the SAME TIRE to all of a sudden gain four seconds over a two minute lap, that's insane. Having driven a real car on a real track, the physics before were accurate. Now, they are not.

Before, you had to brake as straight as possible and accelerate as straight as possible. You had to drive like they would teach you at a track day school. Now, hammer the brakes whenever you want and hammer the gas when ever you want. Grass can spin you out still, so there's that.

Doesn't give you much confidence they have got any clue what they are doing with their physics/handling model when they make changes that have such a dramatic effect. If they have it right now just how did they get it so wrong to start with?

They had it "right" before. Now it's just GT6 levels of wrong. Same core physics system so that's the answer as to how they can make the change. I mean, I get it! This makes it so more people can be less frustrated, but it's TOO big a change. Let them be a little frustrated. Why make the rest of us suffer?

 

[meck_rb7]

They've killed braking with a DS4... no feeling at all....1 second slower than my fastest time on the Nurburgring GP with GT-R Gr.3........ how?

 

[Stotty]

Well, I can only respond based on real life on motorcycles. A full slick racing tire is good for a second a lap, maybe 2, over a soft street tire (like a track day tire) on a track where the laps are about 2 minutes.

So, for a car on the SAME TIRE to all of a sudden gain four seconds over a two minute lap, that's insane. Having driven a real car on a real track, the physics before were accurate. Now, they are not.

Before, you had to brake as straight as possible and accelerate as straight as possible. You had to drive like they would teach you at a track day school. Now, hammer the brakes whenever you want and hammer the gas when ever you want. Grass can spin you out still, so there's that.

Quick Google...

Renault Megane 265, Avon ZZ5 road tyres vs Avon Slicks... 3.3s difference over a 1'16s lap

https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/anything-goes/how-quick-hot-hatch-slick-tyres

Other data may be available.

So c.6s faster over a 2 min lap.

 

[meck_rb7]

Well, I can only respond based on real life on motorcycles. A full slick racing tire is good for a second a lap, maybe 2, over a soft street tire (like a track day tire) on a track where the laps are about 2 minutes.

So, for a car on the SAME TIRE to all of a sudden gain four seconds over a two minute lap, that's insane. Having driven a real car on a real track, the physics before were accurate. Now, they are not.

Before, you had to brake as straight as possible and accelerate as straight as possible. You had to drive like they would teach you at a track day school. Now, hammer the brakes whenever you want and hammer the gas when ever you want. Grass can spin you out still, so there's that.



They had it "right" before. Now it's just GT6 levels of wrong. Same core physics system so that's the answer as to how they can make the change. I mean, I get it! This makes it so more people can be less frustrated, but it's TOO big a change. Let them be a little frustrated. Why make the rest of us suffer?

Yes!! This! Stamp the brake and gas pedals... but no feeling at all....

 

[Tired Tyres]

So, I went and finished the Nurb lap.

Corvette GR3 Road Car, RS tires, from a standing start. Saturday I ran an 8:53.6 and I was trying to be as smooth as I could. I think I could have gone faster...maybe a second or so. Now, same car, same set up (EXACTLY), from a standing start, I ran a scruffy 8:46.3.

I was flat in corners that used to require balance!!!

It reminded me of driving cheater cars in GT6. The fun is gone. It's just GT6 again. This change goes WAY WAY WAY too far.

Time will tell, but before, I started races in the A/S group knowing there was a good chance that someone in front of me would crash all the while focusing on that crasher not being me! Now, you really need to be playing with your feet to screw up (no offense to those players playing with their feet on the regular).

Funny that. This morning I did the Suzuka circuit experience in an NSX gr3. Gold time is 2:07. Real GT3/GT300 cars this season where doing 2:01/02's. Did we have realistic tyre grip then? Do we have it now?

 

[DaveTheStalker]

So, I went and finished the Nurb lap.

Corvette GR3 Road Car, RS tires, from a standing start. Saturday I ran an 8:53.6 and I was trying to be as smooth as I could. I think I could have gone faster...maybe a second or so. Now, same car, same set up (EXACTLY), from a standing start, I ran a scruffy 8:46.3.

I was flat in corners that used to require balance!!!

It reminded me of driving cheater cars in GT6. The fun is gone. It's just GT6 again. This change goes WAY WAY WAY too far.

Time will tell, but before, I started races in the A/S group knowing there was a good chance that someone in front of me would crash all the while focusing on that crasher not being me! Now, you really need to be playing with your feet to screw up (no offense to those players playing with their feet on the regular).

Which lap was that, first? Fifth? Seventh? Fifteenth?

 

[Voodoovaj]

Funny that. This morning I did the Suzuka circuit experience in an NSX gr3. Gold time is 2:07. Real GT3/GT300 cars this season where doing 2:01/02's. Did we have realistic tyre grip then? Do we have it now?

I guess that depends on whether you are good enough driver to be paid to drive a GT300 car. I know that I am not. You would have to climb behind the wheel and find out for yourself, but I will go out on a limb and wager that you are not, regardless of how good you are in the game (no offense meant).

In any event, it is what it is. The change has been made and we have to deal with it.

Personally, I think that stabbing the brake and stabbing the gas with reckless abandon makes it less realistic. Why? Because I can't do that in real life and expect to stay on the track. But hey, maybe there'll be more folks online now.

Which lap was that, first? Fifth? Seventh? Fifteenth?

The first one (8:53) was after a couple of hours. I am going to guess it was a seventh or eighth time around.

The 8:46 was the second time. First full lap. I exited the first attempt.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I guess that depends on whether you are good enough driver to be paid to drive a GT300 car. I know that I am not. You would have to climb behind the wheel and find out for yourself, but I will go out on a limb and wager that you are not, regardless of how good you are in the game (no offense meant).

In any event, it is what it is. The change has been made and we have to deal with it.

That's partly what I meant. How many people here have practical experience of slicks on a race track? I know I don't.

 

[Deko Wolf-GTPT]

I'm feeling slightly frustrated because it seems I'm the only one having a negative experience with the new handling system.

Reading the forum feedback, it seems this new handling system is much forgiving while before it was hard and punishing. I'm experiencing the exact opposite.
I enjoyed the previous handling, if anything, I found it to be so much easier. Now however, it's incredibly difficult to drive. Throttle feels like an on/off switch, braking distance have increased, and occasionally my wheel becomes loose, having now to turn 90 degrees on corners that rarely need a 45 degree angle.

 

[Voodoovaj]

That's partly what I meant. How many people here have practical experience of slicks on a race track? I know I don't.

I do

I'm no pro. Braking zones scare the crap out of me. I brake from WAAY back.

Tires make a huge difference. From regular road tires to track day tires, the difference is massive, but you still need to drive the car properly. Mistakes in handing the car don't disappear. That's my beef. It's not the time change, it's the skill change.

K, so last night, I was doing the Bathurst event. I lament being in the A/S group because I am a back of the back guy in the group. I qualified with a 2:10. The pole was a 2:03!!!! I thought "how???". By the end of the race, I was laping in the 2:07's. I know where I could go faster, where I was scrubbing time, etc. I just had to get better at doing it. Now, with all this flat out stuff, where is the time?

 

[Stotty]

K, so last night, I was doing the Bathurst event. I lament being in the A/S group because I am a back of the back guy in the group. I qualified with a 2:10. The pole was a 2:03!!!! I thought "how???". By the end of the race, I was laping in the 2:07's. I know where I could go faster, where I was scrubbing time, etc. I just had to get better at doing it. Now, with all this flat out stuff, where is the time?

Bathurst qualifying record is a 2'01.286, race record is a 2'01.567, both set by Shane Van Gisbergen in a McLaren 650S GT3... so significantly quicker than the qualifying times I saw at Bathurst yesterday in GTS (my best was a 2'03.9xx, with optimum at 2'03.4xx).

So old GTS physics/tyre/grip model was significantly slower than RL.

Qualifying video...



You find time by exiting corners better, and then carrying that speed along the next section until you have the next big brake.

 

[Sean Renon]

Bathurst qualifying record is a 2'01.286, race record is a 2'01.567, both set by Shane Van Gisbergen in a McLaren 650S GT3... so significantly quicker than the qualifying times I saw at Bathurst yesterday in GTS (my best was a 2'03.9xx, with optimum at 2'03.4xx).

So old GTS physics/tyre/grip model was significantly slower than RL.

Qualifying video...



You find time by exiting corners better, and then carrying that speed along the next section until you have the next big brake.

I'm not disputing that old GTS physics may have been slower, but don't real life GT3 races allow tuning? For that short period of time that tuning was allowed online we were seeing times near 2 seconds faster than stock cars with good tunes.

 

[PzR Slim]

This dude is not happy.

 

[Stotty]

I'm not disputing that old GTS physics may have been slower, but don't real life GT3 races allow tuning? For that short period of time that tuning was allowed online we were seeing times near 2 seconds faster than stock cars with good tunes.

Would be nice to see the telemetry for the Bathurst lap... so you could see speed/brake point and how hard he's on the accelerator.

Yes, you could probably make that sort of lap time improvement through tuning... but then is that anymore realistic given some of the shortcuts to fast lap times using tuning?

 

[diesel97]

Increase. (I say this because the likelihood of them crashing to far reduced. The ragged edge is now smooth as silk).

They broke the game IMHO. I set a 8:53 in the corvette GR3 road car at Nurb 24 over the weekend. Today, I thought the grip was WAY different so I tried it. I was (I'm guessing) 5 seconds ahead by half a lap. I crashed, spun, corrected myself (at the hairpin before the climb up the hill on the back section), and got underway before the ghost caught me. I caught the ghost again before the right hander at the bottom of the hill before the first carousel. That's INSANE.

This is why we can't have nice things. The hamfisted gripe and then the game gets altered to be an arcade game again. What's the point? Where did the skill go? Now it's just hammer the brakes and hammer the throttle. This just encourages bad driving. If it were a very, very, very slight change, then I wouldn't mind so much but this change makes it a completely different game (again my opinion).

Also, great work on the car balance (NOT). The Scirocco on Lago Maggiore is 2 seconds faster than most other cars in my garage. I qualified my Scirocco at a 2:05:5. My previous best qualifying was with the Viper at a 2:09:5 (ya, I could have done better). I raced with the Genesis and the Lexus and ran high 2:07's low 2:08's

Terrible, terrible, terrible change.

I guess smashing the brakes and throttle didn't work this time LOL

 

[Voodoovaj]

I guess smashing the brakes and throttle didn't work this time LOL

I hit the grass while I was smashing the throttle

 

[7HO]

Doesn't give you much confidence they have got any clue what they are doing with their physics/handling model when they make changes that have such a dramatic effect. If they have it right now just how did they get it so wrong to start with?

You should see the changes other sims make. It was hilarious when Assetto Corsa first came out and the period after that. There were awesome debates over physics on the iRacing forums and which was more realistic, top iRacing drivers stopped racing on iRacing including a Pro IIRC, well I know he was a Team Redline driver, I just checked, he is still a Team Redline driver. Anyway the funniest part was how people took sides and swore the sim was realistic and then iRacing became easier to drive with updates and more like Assetto Corsa and Assetto Corsa became harder to drive with updates and more like iRacing until they passed each other, and people still argued from the same position. People have been arguing iRacing physics are realistic for years and even professional race car drivers have said so including the guys who drive the cars that were modelled, apparently they drove just like the real thing. And then iRacing got all this information from the race teams that they were unable to get and improved their tyre model which allowed them to create a much more realistic model. Of course some people were confused, was it realistic before they changed it or after they changed it. But iRacing changes every 3 months.

How about all the real race drivers who helped make PCARS1 so realistic? They had Ben Collins and we were told it was the most realistic sim, I actually think PC1 drives very good now in many cars after all the updates. But now they let us know it wasn't as good as they originally told us and they bit off more than they could chew that first time around. But this time they have had input from Ben Collins and other race drivers and PC2 is realistic and perfect and doesn't have any bugs and it absolutely doesn't have as many bugs as people say it has and the lists people make are feature requests not bugs. And they don't need those bug lists anyway because they already had their own Google document with pages of bugs that they knew about before anyone mentioned them (even though the game apparently doesn't have bugs) and the update is just going through the approval process now. But it doesn't need the update because the game is already perfect and better than everything else, just look at all the reviews. Drive the demo and the game back to back, the demo is a taste of whats coming because apparently there is so much more to be revealed in the update than what is in the demo.

Assetto Corsa has changed many times.

I guess no one knows what they are doing. Or maybe small changes to code that might fix one thing have a big effect elsewhere. Keep in mind the code does not say "be exactly like a GTR", the code contains a lot of math.

Having driven a real car on a real track, the physics before were accurate. Now, they are not.

I don't agree. I think they have improved.

I'm feeling slightly frustrated because it seems I'm the only one having a negative experience with the new handling system.

Reading the forum feedback, it seems this new handling system is much forgiving while before it was hard and punishing. I'm experiencing the exact opposite.
I enjoyed the previous handling, if anything, I found it to be so much easier. Now however, it's incredibly difficult to drive. Throttle feels like an on/off switch, braking distance have increased, and occasionally my wheel becomes loose, having now to turn 90 degrees on corners that rarely need a 45 degree angle.

Don't worry about them. I doubt they are driving anywhere near the limit. I'm finding it harder too to keep my relative pace to the alien times. Before the update I was starting to get close to leaderboard time at about 1 second off 10th place or closer sometimes. Now I'm back to 2-3 seconds off or more. The cars are much easier to drive slowly which is good but I'm finding them much harder to drive at the limit.

I do

I'm no pro. Braking zones scare the crap out of me. I brake from WAAY back.

Tires make a huge difference. From regular road tires to track day tires, the difference is massive, but you still need to drive the car properly. Mistakes in handing the car don't disappear. That's my beef. It's not the time change, it's the skill change.

K, so last night, I was doing the Bathurst event. I lament being in the A/S group because I am a back of the back guy in the group. I qualified with a 2:10. The pole was a 2:03!!!! I thought "how???". By the end of the race, I was laping in the 2:07's. I know where I could go faster, where I was scrubbing time, etc. I just had to get better at doing it. Now, with all this flat out stuff, where is the time?

You are driving slow, you should have grip when you are driving slow. Even before the update a 2:10 is a leisurely pace never breaking grip if you run the right line. I can see why you thought the grip was realistic back then and isn't now. But it is better now, try driving faster and see what happens to all your grip. try getting within 1 second of the leaderboard and see how much grip you have. Think about this for a moment, when a real race car driver runs a conservative lap are they losing 7 seconds a lap and are they ever in danger of losing traction? No to both. But when they run a hotlap is when they risk a brake lockup and still they are not sliding all over the place or skidding every corner and when they do lose grip it is considered a moment. Think about that and you'll realise the tyres still are not perfect but they are better than they were. Think about that and you'll suddenly realise that the way you can slide around in other sims also isn't realistic at all.

 

[Stotty]

Just ran 30 mins in the RSR at Nurb GP daily. Feels lovely. A lot less understeer, but anyone claiming they can just jump on the gas at the exit in a low gear is smoking something.

You still have to be sensitive with the controls to go fast.

 

[ghostrider135]

So I think most of us can agree were now faster thanks to the update, Maybe not for the best but there is one bright side for any of the slower guys, Easier trophies, Atleast until the next update when PD fool around with the code again

 

[DGXR]

Personally, I think that stabbing the brake and stabbing the gas with reckless abandon makes it less realistic. Why? Because I can't do that in real life and expect to stay on the track. But hey, maybe there'll be more folks online now.

I thought ABS and TCS allowed for such hamfisting? As long as it wasn't done deliberately to wreck (and who would do that), I'm pretty sure you could stab away at the brake and gas pedals - in certain situations - and the nannies would do quite a bit to keep you on the track. Of course, this assuming your nannies are turned on and ready for action

 

[DaveTheStalker]

Just ran 30 mins in the RSR at Nurb GP daily. Feels lovely. A lot less understeer, but anyone claiming they can just jump on the gas at the exit in a low gear is smoking something.

You still have to be sensitive with the controls to go fast.

This is my first time driving this car. Getting on too hard or too early, it will snap around, and that’s with TC at 2. People saying the game is ruined, you’re being rather melodramatic.

Odd, @uMayBeSeated diesnt notice any difference at all.

 

[stevenhiggster]

This is my first time driving this car. Getting on too hard or too early, it will snap around, and that’s with TC at 2. People saying the game is ruined, you’re being rather melodramatic.

So much drama in this thread

 

[DGXR]

This is my first time driving this car. Getting on too hard or too early, it will snap around, and that’s with TC at 2. People saying the game is ruined, you’re being rather melodramatic.
Odd, @uMayBeSeated diesnt notice any difference at all.

I agree, plenty of drama in most forum threads nowadays. But I must say, the update is very clear on the TCS change -- the change is applied only to settings of 3 or above. Settings below 3 are unchanged.

 

[Shottah072]

I'm comparing the same car and the same set up.

To compare Lago Maggiore Sport Mode times, my previous best was in the viper at a mid 2:09. I had tried the viper versus the Scirocco at the time and I was faster in the viper. Today, I ran a mid 2:05 in the Scirocco. 4 seconds is a MASSIVE difference. Sure, I could have gotten the viper into the 2:08's, but the 2:05's?...not likely.

4 seconds of increase on a 2 minute lap is MAHOOOSIVE! That's like 200hp or the difference between a Sports Soft tire and Racing super soft tire. And, on the point of tires, prior to 1.06, the difference in tires made sense. RS tires gave you a little extra grip, but they weren't ridiculous. Now, bring in the clowns.

With those times you are no where near driving the tyres at their maximun grip. To be fast you need to be at their max traction level from braking to exit. Judging by you times you are either underdriving or overdriving but almost never on the limit. You cant judge tire grip level properly when you cant drive them till their limit.

 

[eAxis Patohm]

Just ran 30 mins in the RSR at Nurb GP daily. Feels lovely. A lot less understeer, but anyone claiming they can just jump on the gas at the exit in a low gear is smoking something.

You still have to be sensitive with the controls to go fast.

TRUE, it seems on the top ist time to disable the assists to go very fast, because ist controlable now!
So with these changes it is already harder for me to be fast ^^

To put it into pespective: On the Nurb Daily Race Group 3, you Need to go 1,5-2 Seconds faster, or you are slower compared to the top Drivers from Version 1.05

It feels a lot better know (at least at the "top Times Settings"), for me at least

BTW: F1 2017 is like 2-4 seconds faster than F1 2016... are F1 2017 cars easier to drive?! NOPE...

The Games keeps changing and this is a good think! If you had Assits before, try without assists now. Ist much more rewarding!