Is GT5 a finished product after spec II?

[Samus]

Then what's the point? (I really don't know )

Well that was only a very minor change in the example, many engine swaps are more drastic. But you could of course modify the new engine and increase performance further, but there are other advantages to a more powerful stock engine vs an upgraded, slower one.

 

[kimi123]

What is? Just because you don't see the fuss about it, doesn't mean everybody else shares your view. Your argument against engine swaps really is non-existent. I've not seen you give one good reason not to have them.



Who is they? PD? They've already said a livery editor is something they think about for the future, and I've seen that picture of mini pre-release that had basic stickers on it.

I have given reason many times already. We just need proper upgrades and tunnings. Fiat 500 is not really a performance car. Let the car be the way it was meant to be. People like it for different reason.

Yep that feature will probably there for next game. I can live without it but since many are complaining they will probably have it

 

[GTShadowKing]

Well that was only a very minor change in the example, many engine swaps are more drastic. But you could of course modify the new engine and increase performance further, but there are other advantages to a more powerful stock engine vs an upgraded, slower one.

Hum I see...so it's not that big deal right...but still wouldn't hurt to include that feature...

 

[Samus]

I have given reason many times already. We just need proper upgrades and tunnings. Fiat 500 is not really a performance car. Let the car be the way it was meant to be. People like it for different reason.

Yep that feature will probably there for next game. I can live without it but since many are complaining they will probably have it

Hmm....

 

[kimi123]

I like that car it looks cute

 

[Samus]

Great retort. 👍

 

[SavageEvil]

Hey maybe if we ask for it, perhaps PD might add it. Just have to keep it plausible among manufacturers and not insane. We can only hope, but I doubt it will go beyond the realm of swapping out the regular engine for the top of the line racing/semi racing engine from that manufacturer kind of like how FM has done it. This would be interesting to have in the GT world as well as drivetrain swaps for cars that can actually support it. One at a time, just keep telling PD how much we want it. If we get the things other games have that are actually adding to the community we won't actually have to buy another game because it supports things that our game doesn't.

 

[BestRacerEver]

It more like beta with all those standard cars. I want more races, championships etc.

 

[Tornado]

Upgrades and tunings is more than enough there is no need the imagination go wild and allow the option to customize stuff which can be only possible in video game and not suitable in real life. This is suppose to be realistic game 💡

In my first post in this discussion, I showed you a picture of a car that is sitting in my driveway right now that has had an engine swap done to it. Not in a video game. In my real life, I-can-walk-to-it-and-drive-off-after-submitting-this-post driveway. That car exists with an engine quite a bit different from the one that originally came with it.



There is nothing unrealistic about it. That is an inarguable fact, and your appeal to realism is a logical black hole regardless because almost nothing about GT5's engine tuning system is particularly realistic in the first place.

 

[ParkourVeyron]

I find it extremely hilarious that the last five pages of this thread are nothing but arguing about engine swaps:
User 1: I think engine swaps should be in GT5.
User 2: Huuuurrrrr Duuuurrrr what's an engine swap?
User 1: An engine swap is where you take out the engine a car has in it and you put in a new one.
User 2: Ummm, what's an engine swap?
User 1: (Repeats engine swap 101)
User 2: Well, now that I understand, engine swaps shouldn't be in GT5.

Back on topic, I'm on the engine swap bandwagon, but if PD does do it, it shouldn't be overdone, I don't think you should be able to put a monster V8 in a Miata.

 

[shirakawaa]

To be more realistic, the car balance/weight distribution/total weight/center mass should change depending on the engine swapped.

 

[kimi123]

In my first post in this discussion, I showed you a picture of a car that is sitting in my driveway right now that has had an engine swap done to it. Not in a video game. In my real life, I-can-walk-to-it-and-drive-off-after-submitting-this-post driveway. That car exists with an engine quite a bit different from the one that originally came with it.



There is nothing unrealistic about it. That is an inarguable fact, and your appeal to realism is a logical black hole regardless because almost nothing about GT5's engine tuning system is particularly realistic in the first place.

The upgrade or tuning in GT is real in how the changes effect car performance and handling. It is basically meant to make your fav car the fastest one. Having said that it is optional and depends on the player. Engine swaps and drive train is taking this to another level. It is nothing but a tool to come up with pretty much anything 👎

There are other many important things the game can be improved upon

 

[Exorcet]

Well first we still need some bug fixes, the '02 S7 has the wrong fore/aft weight distribution, I'm sure some other cars might share this problem as well. 52/48 split for a MR car is a little off considering it's got a huge 7.0l Ford derived V8 back there. A few more tweaks to the main code should help balance things out some more, but I just hope they don't stop fixing until the very end of GT5's cycle.

The S7's balance (and lots of other things from other cars) is indeed wrong, but it's not a bug, it's an oversight and/or laziness.

Also, the S7's V-8 is very compact and light. Displacement is not size.

Fiat 500 is not really a performance car.

That does not matter. At all. Anyone can take a Fiat 500 and make it a performance car. It wasn't meant to anything except what its owner demands of it.

Back on topic, I'm on the engine swap bandwagon, but if PD does do it, it shouldn't be overdone, I don't think you should be able to put a monster V8 in a Miata.

That's not overdone. That is realistic

What should be avoided is arcade limits like not being able to put a V-8 in a Miata. The only restrictions to engine swaps should be as follows:

-Realism [which allows any engine in any car, depending on modifications made]
-License issues (cross manufacturer swaps)

Engine swaps and drive train is taking this to another level. It is nothing but a tool to come up with pretty much anything

And that is completely fine.

There are other many important things the game can be improved upon

That's true. And for many engine swaps is a high priority, which provides good reasons to include it.

 

[Tornado]

The upgrade or tuning in GT is real in how the changes effect car performance

It isn't. Not even remotely. For example, NA tuning like what is described when you perform it in the tuning menu absolutely does not work in real life like it does in the game; and the turbocharging options in the game aren't that much more realistic. In fact, the last GT game to have somewhat realistic engine tuning was GT2.

Having said that it is optional and depends on the player. Engine swaps and drive train is taking this to another level.

These two sentences contradict each other.

It is nothing but a tool to come up with pretty much anything 👎

Why exactly is this a pejorative?

There are other many important things the game can be improved upon

I agree with this, certainly. But that doesn't mean that those things will actually get done, so the discussion is still valid and you have yet to give reasoning why it isn't.

 

[Samus]

It is nothing but a tool to come up with pretty much anything 👎

Again, why is that a bad thing?

 

[Nielsen]

It's slightly improved but far from finished. Old problems are still present and I really hope PD is aware of this despite releasing version 2.0.

 

[kimi123]

The S7's balance (and lots of other things from other cars) is indeed wrong, but it's not a bug, it's an oversight and/or laziness.

Also, the S7's V-8 is very compact and light. Displacement is not size.



That does not matter. At all. Anyone can take a Fiat 500 and make it a performance car. It wasn't meant to anything except what its owner demands of it.




That's not overdone. That is realistic

What should be avoided is arcade limits like not being able to put a V-8 in a Miata. The only restrictions to engine swaps should be as follows:

-Realism [which allows any engine in any car, depending on modifications made]
-License issues (cross manufacturer swaps)




And that is completely fine.

That's true. And for many engine swaps is a high priority, which provides good reasons to include it.

Why would anyone want to ruin a cute looking Fiat 500 into a monster

It isn't. Not even remotely. For example, NA tuning like what is described when you perform it in the tuning menu absolutely does not work in real life like it does in the game; and the turbocharging options in the game aren't that much more realistic. In fact, the last GT game to have somewhat realistic engine tuning was GT2.


These two sentences contradict each other.


Why exactly is this a pejorative?


I agree with this, certainly. But that doesn't mean that those things will actually get done, so the discussion is still valid and you have yet to give reasoning why it isn't.

How can you confidently say that in the game the tunning is unrealistic ? There is lot of math and physics involved in it which the programmers would have implemented. Now how real is it, that is impossible to tell.

I am not great fan of tunning anyways so I said it depends but I don't think they would want to go in that direction any further to go on and allow engine swaps and drive train options. I have given the reason in pretty much all my post. They need to include real cars in the game.

 

[Exorcet]

Why would anyone want to ruin a cute looking Fiat 500 into a monster

Why do you want to ruin GT5 and make it an arcade game?

How can you confidently say that in the game the tunning is unrealistic ? There is lot of math and physics involved in it which the programmers would have implemented. Now how real is it, that is impossible to tell.

It's not impossible to tell. You're right, there is math and physics involved. One way to see how real GT is, is to compare to the math and physics.

But you don't even need that. The easier way to is to compare GT to real life. When the two don't match, GT is wrong.

I am not great fan of tunning anyways so I said it depends but I don't think they would want to go in that direction any further to go on and allow engine swaps and drive train options. I have given the reason in pretty much all my post. They need to include real cars in the game.

You have no reason. There is no reason not to include engine swaps, and you don't speak for PD.

 

[Tornado]

How can you confidently say that in the game the tunning is unrealistic ?

Because all one has to do is compare a car tuned by the player to a tuner equivalent of that same car in the game.


Adding to that, GT5 appears to work under a very similar multiplier system to the one that GT3 and GT4 implemented, and real life tuning does not work that way. A performance muffler will add horsepower at the top end in real life, but most likely at the expense of bottom end torque. In GT5, all tuning parts provide an across-the-powerband improvement, which is why tuning an EK Civic Type R to the same horsepower as the Spoon Civic Type R will make the one you made have far more torque at a far lower RPM than the one using real-life specifications.

That is why the hard-coded numbers GT1 and GT2 used provided more realistic tuning, because PD likely hand-made the power curves to reflect how they would be in real life.

 

[kimi123]

Why do you want to ruin GT5 and make it an arcade game?



It's not impossible to tell. You're right, there is math and physics involved. One way to see how real GT is, is to compare to the math and physics.

But you don't even need that. The easier way to is to compare GT to real life. When the two don't match, GT is wrong.


You have no reason. There is no reason not to include engine swaps, and you don't speak for PD.

Tunning, modding or engine swap has nothing to do with a game being sim or arcade.

Because all one has to do is compare a car tuned by the player to a tuner equivalent of that same car in the game.


Adding to that, GT5 appears to works under a very similar multiplier system to the one that GT3 and GT4 implemented, and real life tuning does not work that way. A performance muffler will add horsepower at the top end in real life, but most likely at the expense of bottom end torque. In GT5, all tuning parts provide an across-the-powerband improvement, which is why tuning a EK Civic Type R to the same horsepower as the Spoon Civic Type R will make the one you made have far more torque at a far lower RPM than the one using real-life specifications.

That is why the hard-coded numbers GT1 and GT2 used provided more realistic tuning, because PD likely hand-made the power curves to reflect how they would be in real life.

First of all GT5 shouldn't be taking anything from GT3 and GT4 unless they are the most basic information they already had. Because if I remember correctly GT5 uses brand new engine and they basically threw all the pervious code. Also I am pretty sure your theory about tunning engine with respect to EK and comparing with Spoon Civic Type R is wrong and there are various variable into consideration. Since the Spoon Civic is like race car version engine tunning of EK is not necessarily going to match it against Spoon version.

 

[Tornado]

First of all GT5 shouldn't be taking anything from GT3 and GT4 unless they are the most basic information they already had. Because if I remember correctly GT5 uses brand new engine and they basically threw all the pervious code. Also I am pretty sure your theory about tunning engine with respect to EK and Spoon Civic Type R is wrong and there are various variable into consideration. Since the Spoon Civic is like race car version engine tunning of EK is not necessarily going to match it against Spoon version.

I am literally speechless. Did you read any of my post before you responded to it?

 

[Samus]

I think it's quite clear at this point that kimi123 has little to no technical knowledge of engines, drivetrains and how they work. Nothing wrong with that, but then trying to argue against something you have no knowledge on is quite foolish.

I mean I know nothing about drag racing but I'm not going to go and argue against better integration of it with the guys that do.

 

[another_jakhole]

I am literally speechless. Did you read any of my post before you responded to it?

Wouldn't tuning a stock Civic in real life be different than what Spoon did?

By that, I mean wasn't Spoon able to tune the car how they want with the ECU? That's only one of the variables that makes different a tuned civic in GT5 to the Spoon civic.

A default tune-up ECU in GT5 isn't free like some in real life are.

I'm adding this on behalf of Kimi because I THINK this is part of what he was trying to say. GT5 upgrades are simply GT5 tune-ups/upgrades. They don't reflect anything that Spoon used or changed to their car because the Spoon civic is unique. Not just default tune-ups in GT5.

 

[kimi123]

I am literally speechless. Did you read any of my post before you responded to it?

I am not sure of exact specification of the Civic model you are comparing.

But tunning one to other sport version config which has same engine is necessairly not a valid comprision. What about other difference like transmission and gearbox the weight between the 2 models. Sports version will be using aluminium and carbon fiber. exhaust various other factors.

Also the upgrades or tunning is not necessairly engine alone. The upgrades should have a realistic performance and handling effect otherwise it is bug and shouldn't be happening.

 

[another_jakhole]

That's it ^^^

He's not trying to spew bs like you think.

 

[Tornado]

I am not sure of exact specification of the Civic model you are comparing.

I told you exactly what model of Civic I was referring to.

But tunning one to other sport version config which has same engine is necessairly not a valid comprision. What about other difference like transmission and gearbox the weight between the 2 models. Sports version will be using aluminium and carbon fiber. exhaust various other factors.

Also the upgrades or tunning is not necessairly engine alone. The upgrades should have a realistic performance and handling effect otherwise it is bug and shouldn't be happening.

It is impossible to word this without being a condescending ass, but I'm going to say it anyways: Stop with this. You have, to be frank, no clue what you are talking about; and I will no longer make any effort to discuss this with you because you are obstinate in your views despite several people trying as gently as possible to make you aware of that fact.









Anyways, for someone who seems to actually want to discuss this:

Wouldn't tuning a stock Civic in real life be different than what Spoon did?

By that, I mean wasn't Spoon able to tune the car how they want with the ECU?
A default tune-up ECU in GT5 isn't free like some in real life are.

I'm adding this on behalf of Kimi because I THINK this is part of what he was trying to say. GT5 upgrades are simply GT5 tune-ups/upgrades. They don't reflect anything that Spoon used or changed to their car because the Spoon civic is unique. Not just default tune-ups in GT5.

You can't get the power numbers that the Spoon has in real life (and in GT5) out of the engine without making the same (or at least very similar) concessions towards driveability that the Spoon has. The car would have to rev to a dozen thousand RPM to make the power the Spoon makes. The car would have to make really crappy torque at low RPMs, most likely even less than the stock car does. The overall torque peak wouldn't be that much higher than stock (if at all), but it would have to be much higher in the rev range. The Spoon suffers from all of these things because in order to make that much power from an engine that small it more or less has to.



Either EK Civic (Premium or Standard) that you tune to the same power suffers from neither, because the game basically just shifts the power curve a few hundred RPM to the right and then multiplies it throughout the rev range. In real life, this is impossible without forced induction or displacement increase, and even then it doesn't really work the way it is presented in the game.
Differing ECU tuning and stuff like that allows some wiggle room, yes. So do different kinds of manifolds, exhausts and the like. However, what the tuning in GT5 does could not be accomplished in real life with the parts that are being used to do it.


As soon as Bob is done driving this enduro, I'll show screens from in-game for comparison, but if you would like I can throw together a rough example in MS Paint for what GT5 tuning does and what real life tuning would actually do for various parts. That being said, if you would like to discuss this to such a detail this should probably get its own thread.
Just let me know. I know of a couple of members who probably know even more about this than I do (SHIRAKAWA Akira and Rotary Junkie, for example) who would also likely happily try to help explain it.

That's it ^^^

He's not trying to spew bs like you think.

He is, though. And he refuses to listen when people try to explain why he is incorrect, so it honestly isn't my concern what his intentions are.

 

[kimi123]

That's it ^^^

He's not trying to spew bs like you think.

I think it's quite clear at this point that kimi123 has little to no technical knowledge of engines, drivetrains and how they work. Nothing wrong with that, but then trying to argue against something you have no knowledge on is quite foolish.

I mean I know nothing about drag racing but I'm not going to go and argue against better integration of it with the guys that do.

The guy may have some experience in modding engines. But I am not sure how he claims the tuning and upgrade options are wrong in GT5. Because if there is some bug that needs to addressed.

I told you exactly what model of Civic I was referring to.


It is impossible to word this without being a condescending ass, but I'm going to say it anyways: Stop with this. You have, to be frank, no clue what you are talking about; and I will no longer make any effort to discuss this with you because you are obstinate in your views despite several people trying as gently as possible to make you aware of that fact.









Anyways, for someone who seems to actually want to discuss this:

You can't get the power numbers that the Spoon has in real life (and in GT5) out of the engine without making the same (or at least very similar) concessions towards driveability that the Spoon has. The car would have to rev to a dozen thousand RPM to make the power the Spoon makes. The car would have to make really crappy torque at low RPMs, most likely even less than the stock car does. The overall torque peak wouldn't be that much higher than stock (if at all), but it would have to be much higher in the rev range. The Spoon suffers from all of these things because in order to make that much power from an engine that small it more or less has to.



Either EK Civic (Premium or Standard) that you tune to the same power suffers from neither, because the game basically just shifts the power curve a few hundred RPM to the right and then multiplies it throughout the rev range. In real life, this is impossible without forced induction or displacement increase, and even then it doesn't really work the way it is presented in the game.
Differing ECU tuning and stuff like that allows some wiggle room, yes. So do different kinds of manifolds, exhausts and the like. However, what the tuning in GT5 does could not be accomplished in real life with the parts that are being used to do it.


As soon as Bob is done driving this enduro, I'll show screens from in-game for comparison, but if you would like I can throw together a rough example in MS Paint for what GT5 tuning does and what real life tuning would actually do for various parts. That being said, if you would like to discuss this to such a detail this should probably get its own thread.
Just let me know.


He is, though. And he refuses to listen when people try to explain why he is incorrect, so it honestly isn't my concern what his intentions are.

You are right I do not trust some random person on internet even though you may have some experience ? or probably some knowledge about engine tuning. But only the programmer can answer the question how they implemented the engine tuning. Because there could be several permutation and combination of what you are talking about, provided what you are saying is right??

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

No, you can see it in the game, dont need to ask the programmer.
As Toronado kept trying to explain to you, the POWER CURVE you get from tuning the engine in game is very linear while this is impossible to achieve in reality.
This is even more pronounced using the ENGINE POWER SLIDER, which no such thing exists in real life.
I like this option and I dont think its a bug, its just not realistic.

 

[yogaflame]

I hope not we want too see more premium European and American exotic cars. Please stop Nissan, we have to many GTr already. And I hope next udpate all cars can be modified in there rims and PD add personalize paints and decals on cars ala Forza

 

[Stavelot]

kimi123, go back to 'cute' Fiat Panda and go far far far away from thread, you talk out backside too much to take seriously. As toronado has explain the tuning in GT5 is totally not realistic and no matter what useless argue you try post you still wrong. Sorry if it sound like harsh but it just the real fact of matter.