Is GT5 a finished product after spec II?

[Tornado]

What's your point? They're race cars built with support from the car manufacturers. When people talks about engine swaps, they're not talking about race cars.

Even if this distinction mattered, which it still doesn't, simply saying this already basically makes your point moot. You said this:

Not so much in a serious driving/racing simulator though.

At one point in the series' life, a full third of the cars in the GT500 class were using engines sourced from a completely different vehicle than the car being raced. Ergo, either that point is false or PD should take the time and remove all of the cars I just listed from the game.

They're talking about swapping the V8 in a Camaro for a Toyota Supra engine, and stuff like that.

A road car in GT5 that has had an engine swap from stock.

Engine swap, drive train for making a fantasy car is not logical or pratical.

Repeating this mantra over and over again doesn't make it any more true than it was when you were proven wrong a page and a half ago.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Engine swaps between cars of different makes is never gonna happen. Maybe between cars of the same make, yes, but a Supra engine in a Camaro is as likely as Obama running for the Russian presidency.

Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Exorcet]

What's your point? They're race cars built with support from the car manufacturers. When people talks about engine swaps, they're not talking about race cars. They're talking about swapping the V8 in a Camaro for a Toyota Supra engine, and stuff like that.

Yes, and in a race in GT World where you are limited to 6 cylinders or less, why not swap a Camaro V-8 for a Supra engine. What's your point about race cars with manufacturer support?

There are even business that make money selling engines for people to engine swap

And really, if "non serious" races like TT Zero don't count, and races like Super GT don't count, then what is your idea of a legitimate engine swap example? Are you just going to ignore every instance of engine swap just to make your stance seem valid?



http://precisionraceengines.com/

I have given reasons already. Many manufactures like Mercedes-Benz, BMW have various engine for their cars like normal ones and high performance engine like AMG and M series of BMW which basically do that. Engine swap, drive train for making a fantasy car is not logical or pratical. They can have some popular modded cars though.

You post is incorrect and invalid.

 

[Strittan]

*A lot of bull#@%$*

Why doesn't it matter? Now, you need to listen. They started life as race cars, and therefore it's not an engine swap. A race car is built with a race engine. What is it you don't understand about this?

And what's your point about that RUF? What do you mean 'engine swap from stock'? A car can't have an engine swap from stock, I hope you understand that.

 

[Strittan]

And really, if "non serious" races like TT Zero don't count, and races like Super GT don't count, then what is your idea of a legitimate engine swap example? Are you just going to ignore every instance of engine swap just to make your stance seem valid?

Have I said Super GT don't count? I'm just saying the cars in Super GT are purpose built race cars with race engines. That's all.

Sorry for double post.'

EDIT: The only serious racing series I can think of that allow engine and drive train swaps, is in NHRA Drag Racing, but even then I wouldn't want to call that engine swaps, because it's so much more than just swapping an engine. The cars are so heavily modified they're almost scratch built, and therefore they're not actually swapping the engine, they're building the car around it.

 

[Slash]

Why doesn't it matter? Now, you need to listen. They started life as race cars, and therefore it's not an engine swap. A race car is built with a race engine. What is it you don't understand about this?

And what's your point about that RUF? What do you mean 'engine swap from stock'? A car can't have an engine swap from stock, I hope you understand that.

What do you not understand about a race car that had one kind of engine in it and had another installed? Seriously. And yes, a car can have a swap from stock. If a car is designed with one engine in mind but is built with another that would be considered a swap in mine, and most other peoples books. It technically wouldn't be stock but at the same time it would, because it would have no mods done to it when it was built the first time. So technically either way is correct.


My dad has done 2 swaps before and he agrees with the above.

 

[Strittan]

What do you not understand about a race car that had one kind of engine in it and had another installed? Seriously. And yes, a car can have a swap from stock. If a car is designed with one engine in mind but is built with another that would be considered a swap in mine, and most other peoples books.

Ok, so if this is what you guys mean with engine swaps, then sure, they could be in GT5.

What I am against however, is being able to put a Chevy V8 in a Mazda RX7 and vice versa. These kind of swaps would quickly get ridiculous, eventhough they're possible in real life (with some heavy car modifications that is).

 

[Exorcet]

Have I said Super GT don't count? I'm just saying the cars in Super GT are purpose built race cars with race engines. That's all.

Sorry for double post.'

EDIT: The only serious racing series I can think of that allow engine and drive train swaps, is in NHRA Drag Racing, but even then I wouldn't want to call that engine swaps, because it's so much more than just swapping an engine. The cars are so heavily modified they're almost scratch built, and therefore they're not actually swapping the engine, they're building the car around it.

First off, why does it matter what racing series allow or disallow engine swaps? GT has races based on real series, has fantasy series, and also has track days.

And, why can't we in GT build a car around an engine then? We can already strip the interior out, replace the suspension and transmission completely, and modify the body. But for some reason swapping the engine is unreasonable?

Also, Zakspeed's V-8 Viper conversion

http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/04031701.htm

Ok, so if this is what you guys mean with engine swaps, then sure, they could be in GT5.

What I am against however, is being able to put a Chevy V8 in a Mazda RX7 and vice versa. These kind of swaps would quickly get ridiculous, eventhough they're possible in real life (with some heavy car modifications that is).

Ridiculous?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=LS7+RX-7&aq=f

It happens everyday. And if it is possible in real life, what is the problem? Nothing.

Is a 500 hp RX-7 (I have on in GT5) more ridiculous than a 500 hp RX-7 (the ones in the videos)

 

[Strittan]

Ridiculous?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=LS7+RX-7&aq=f

It happens everyday. And if it is possible in real life, what is the problem? Nothing.

Is a 500 hp RX-7 (I have on in GT5) more ridiculous than a 500 hp RX-7 (the ones in the videos)

Good for you. I really hope for your sake they'll include engine swaps. Wait, no I don't, but I'd be glad for you if they did.

And yes, I do find that RX7 to be kinda ridiculous. Just happens to be my personal opinion.

 

[Samus]

Ok, so if this is what you guys mean with engine swaps, then sure, they could be in GT5.

What I am against however, is being able to put a Chevy V8 in a Mazda RX7 and vice versa. These kind of swaps would quickly get ridiculous, eventhough they're possible in real life (with some heavy car modifications that is).

It was said pages back that cross manufacturer engine swaps would never happen simply because the manufactures would never allow it. The question of engine swaps was always just within the same manufacturer, just like the other game.

Also regarding race cars the GT500's may have been a bad example because I'm pretty sure they are custom built and barely resemble the production cars they're based on. However there are plenty of motorsport categories where the race teams will start out with a bone stock road car and modify it for the racing league, and they will replace the engine.

 

[Tornado]

Why doesn't it matter?

You said this:

Not so much in a serious driving/racing simulator though.

There are cars in this game that already prove this wrong. I only showed a partial list. Who made them or what they were made for is irrelevant.

They started life as race cars, and therefore it's not an engine swap. A race car is built with a race engine. What is it you don't understand about this?

JGTC didn't become a "do whatever the hell you want" series until it became Super GT. Those cars were based on street models, especially the GT300 class and especially before the aerodynamic rules went crazy in 2003 or so. And I believe the rules even specifically stated that you could use a different engine from stock so long as it was still in production for some other car made by the company.

The first thing the Supra teams did for the Supra GT500 cars was remove the 2JZ-GTE for the 3S-GTE from the Celica GT-Four. They did the same thing with the 1ZZ-FE in the MR-S I posted, swapping it to the same GT-Four engine, and they did the same thing for the 2ZZ-GE in the Celica. They also converted the Celica to RWD.


Nissan also did the same thing when they dumped the RB26 for the VQ30 in 2003 before they abandoned the Skyline altogether the next year.

And what's your point about that RUF? What do you mean 'engine swap from stock'? A car can't have an engine swap from stock, I hope you understand that.

What do you think the name of the car means? It signifies that it has the Porsche 911 Carrera engine in the car rather than the normal, smaller Porsche Boxster S engine.

 

[Exorcet]

And yes, I do find that RX7 to be kinda ridiculous. Just happens to be my personal opinion.

Your opinion in this case is wrong.

Ridiculous in what capacity? That you don't like it? That's not ridiculous at all.

Before you made it seem like you cared about realism "I don't see any race series that allows swaps", but then when then gets turned around you just admit that it's because you don't like engine swaps. Probably for some illogical reason. That is ridiculous.

 

[Stavelot]

Why are people against swap engines? I'd love to put LS7 in Caterham

 

[ucwepn]

needs about 100 more events and a drag strip

 

[Crumpet]

Why are people against swap engines? I'd love to put LS7 in Caterham

Because, people will experiment.

 

[Stavelot]

VQ45 in my GTR

 

[another_jakhole]

Cars have their specific specs. What would engine swapping do to cars with swapped engines? A lot of different factors affect the programming of the cars in the game. Again, it's easier said than done when the Boss wants the features done right, or not at all. That's the reason why we didn't have cockpit view for the standards at the start. Damage wasn't implemented until it was able to be done right (behold the PS3).

It’s was clear that Gran Turismo 5 had implemented a rarely used feature called Decal Tessellation. Without going into too much detail, the idea behind this technique is to take a displacement map texture, project it onto geometry - just like a decal – and tessellate the geometry in real time so that the displaced geometry looks like physical damage to the vehicle. Plain and simple, mimicking realistic damage on the fly.

With Forza, I highly doubt they implemented engine swapping like it should be - realistic. FM3 is an arcade racer now compared to GT5 and FM4. The kind of damage that FM4 uses, is now something similar or exactly like GT5's damage model, except it looks cheaper than GT5's. The sensitivity of this depends on the car manufacturer so don't bring anything up about GT5 having bad damage, FM4's is crappier, in my opinion, easily, without question. Shredded up tin cans is the word around the block.

I only felt like being extra specific, since Forza is an obvious follower.

I disagree with Strittan, but I agree with him that we don't want it in GT5.

GT6, we can only hope, and only if it's for the PS4, will we get it. - speculation. system limitations, you know, the works.

 

[Exorcet]

it's easier said than done when the Boss wants the features done right, or not at all.

We shouldn't have drafting (not before 2.0 anyway) or brakes then.

Given how much GT lets slide in terms of realism, changing the power band, car weight, and weight balance is "done right" for engine swaps.

 

[Devedander]

Dont see how it could be complete without 2p battle replay. Thats huge in my book.

 

[another_jakhole]

We shouldn't have drafting (not before 2.0 anyway) or brakes then.

Given how much GT lets slide in terms of realism, changing the power band, car weight, and weight balance is "done right" for engine swaps.

So take away essentials of driving/racing? That awesome. How did I not come up with that?

Come on. This is why I didn't even want to post in these kinds of threads. Be rational for crying out loud. As if you think you're right. You were using logic before, where did that go?

 

[Exorcet]

So take away essentials of driving/racing? That awesome. How did I not come up with that?

Come on. This is why I didn't even want to post in these kinds of threads. Be rational for crying out loud. As if you think you're right. You were using logic before, where did that go?

I'm still using logic.

What does done right mean?

Certainly asking for something to be perfect is too much.

But apparently if only things "done right" make the cut, I don't see how you can argue that engine swaps automatically won't be up to the standard set by the rest of the game. I'm serious when I say that GT without draft is no worse than the draft in GT5 pre Spec 2.0.

As for brakes, they are as basic as things get. You're right, the brakes are essential. I'd think that the done right mentally would apply to the essential things though.

If engine swap took into account the three parameters I mentioned before, it would be more accurate the some of other parts of the game.

 

[Samus]

Cars have their specific specs. What would engine swapping do to cars with swapped engines? A lot of different factors affect the programming of the cars in the game. Again, it's easier said than done when the Boss wants the features done right, or not at all. That's the reason why we didn't have cockpit view for the standards at the start. Damage wasn't implemented until it was able to be done right (behold the PS3).

Huh? Standard interiors and damage are not "done right", unless your definition of "done right" is very different to mine.

With Forza, I highly doubt they implemented engine swapping like it should be - realistic.

You highly doubt? Is that code for "I haven't played it so haven't a clue how it's implemented therefore I'll just say it's probably not done right. Certainly sounds like it.

FM3 is an arcade racer now compared to GT5 and FM4.

Stating fact as opinion, always good. You evidently having not even played FM3.

The kind of damage that FM4 uses, is now something similar or exactly like GT5's damage model, except it looks cheaper than GT5's. The sensitivity of this depends on the car manufacturer so don't bring anything up about GT5 having bad damage, FM4's is crappier, in my opinion, easily, without question. Shredded up tin cans is the word around the block.

They're both as bad as each other as far as I'm concerned. FM has the stupid scratched effect, GT5 has the clay model warps. Neither are close to being realistic or, as you call, 'done right'.

I disagree with Strittan, but I agree with him that we don't want it in GT5.

Who is we, just you an Strittan?

GT6, we can only hope, and only if it's for the PS4, will we get it. - speculation. system limitations, you know, the works.

Wait, now this "we" wants it in GT6?

 

[chriz00]

Needs some more track's & newer car's.

 

[xEnZo]

Its a finished product, now we gotta wait til GT6

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Its a finished product, now we gotta wait til Spec 2.01

Fixed.

 

[another_jakhole]

@ SimonK
There it goes ladies and gentlemen. Taking everything we say and being totally literal. It's a great way to throw off your opponent, just act stupid.

Huh? Standard interiors and damage are not "done right", unless your definition of "done right" is very different to mine.

Interiors were added because of us. Damage was added because of demand and because, "It’s was clear that Gran Turismo 5 had implemented a rarely used feature called Decal Tessellation. Without going into too much detail, the idea behind this technique is to take a displacement map texture, project it onto geometry - just like a decal – and tessellate the geometry in real time so that the displaced geometry looks like physical damage to the vehicle. Plain and simple, mimicking realistic damage on the fly."

You highly doubt? Is that code for "I haven't played it so haven't a clue how it's implemented therefore I'll just say it's probably not done right. Certainly sounds like it.

Stating fact as opinion, always good. You evidently having not even played FM3.

Hey, looks like you learned from me. FM3 isn't anywhere near as good as people say FM4 and GT5 physics are so they're lying, you're saying. Because it had a permanent steering assist and was just not any close to be as realistic and now, we can say Turn 10 did a lot better with FM4.

@ Exorcet - none of what I right below this is flame crap

But apparently if only things "done right" make the cut, I don't see how you can argue that engine swaps automatically won't be up to the standard set by the rest of the game. I'm serious when I say that GT without draft is no worse than the draft in GT5 pre Spec 2.0.

Now this I can understand. You're partially right about the draft. PD tried to do drafting right, they didn't, and now they've "fixed" it. Tweaked modified adjusted. They're all similar enough.

Engine swaps would most definitely take into account everything about the car. I would think that just like with weather and the physics engine, doing engine swaps is just as complex in that way. I'm only taking into account if PD can do it right. By that I mean, not just add power to the cars, but change any characteristic that's affected by the engine swap. I'm not saying I KNOW this to be true, but programming has its limitations on GT5 (choosing the time of day for offline time change races and mid-race saves were a pain because of not being able to accomplish it, otherwise we would have had it by now. Standard cars have interiors now, although Kaz never said we'd get that. Historic Standards upgraded to premium was announced and still not here.) and programming is probably the biggest factor that keeps engine swaps from being in GT5. I hope this helps you see this from my POV.

If engine swap took into account the three parameters I mentioned before, it would be more accurate the some of other parts of the game.

Like I sort of said above, if it were easily implementable, I think Kaz would have done this the way he needed it to be by now. Then, again, I can be over-hyping Kaz's perfectionism, but not really because he's really unpredictable to me. Seriously considering everything Spec 2 changed and Spa coming to GT5 as DLC and a 99% certainty that the future DLC will impress even more. It's a bad strategy to sell worse and worse content and some other stuff that needs a lot of speculation explaining. Bottom-line, we should really start having faith in Kaz's decisions. All (not literally) those pleads we asked of Kaz were answered with Spec 2 and Spa. Spec 2 and Spa should actually be huge hints of the future content PD will provide. What we want (hopefully).

I was skeptical about what Spec 2 and the DLC would be, but not at all anymore will I second guess PD. I'm introverted outside of a Forum, I have all the time in the world to doubt, just not anymore with Kaz's decisions.

Appreciate it, Exorcet, for not replying the way I did to you. It's obviously frustrating when people have opposing ideas/views from one another, hope people can actually talk without being condescending, rude, and annoying, I just have my doubts about THAT. All of which I'm guilty of some, some.
____________________________
To everybody, peace and love. Peace and love. IIIIIIT'S RINGOOOO!
/stupidity

 

[Tornado]

There it goes ladies and gentlemen. Taking everything we say and being totally literal. It's a great way to throw off your opponent, just act stupid.

"Stop using logic in these debates," just in quite a few more words then you needed to use.

 

[kimi123]

Even if this distinction mattered, which it still doesn't, simply saying this already basically makes your point moot. You said this:



At one point in the series' life, a full third of the cars in the GT500 class were using engines sourced from a completely different vehicle than the car being raced. Ergo, either that point is false or PD should take the time and remove all of the cars I just listed from the game.

A road car in GT5 that has had an engine swap from stock.




Repeating this mantra over and over again doesn't make it any more true than it was when you were proven wrong a page and a half ago.

What are you talking about. F1 engine on hatchback are you for real ? Even 9yrs old boy would doubt upon such things.

Yes, and in a race in GT World where you are limited to 6 cylinders or less, why not swap a Camaro V-8 for a Supra engine. What's your point about race cars with manufacturer support?

There are even business that make money selling engines for people to engine swap

And really, if "non serious" races like TT Zero don't count, and races like Super GT don't count, then what is your idea of a legitimate engine swap example? Are you just going to ignore every instance of engine swap just to make your stance seem valid?



http://precisionraceengines.com/



You post is incorrect and invalid.

Nope. I already proved how ridiculous engine swap can be. Sure modding is done, there are probably lots of illegal and power boost cars. Even in F1 they have KERS and movable wings to give more drag. The possibilites is endless.

These things are not meant to be in GT game. As I said may be they can have some really popular and unique modded cars but engine swap or drive train option is a horrible idea

 

[Stavelot]

Engine swap = Idea wanted by so many (so realistic too) and not wanted by other for dumb reasons.
Drivetrain swap = This is dumb idea as it is more work...

 

[Exorcet]

Like I sort of said above, if it were easily implementable, I think Kaz would have done this the way he needed it to be by now.

Well, I'm still kind of looking for evidence of that. If PD did communicate more, and said that they were having issues, I'd understand.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from.

What are you talking about. F1 engine on hatchback are you for real ? Even 9yrs old boy would doubt upon such things.

Go play GT2, and you'll find a hatchback with an F1 engine it, since one was built in real life.

EDIT by the way, if you would start paying attention, you'd notice that the desire to have engine swaps in game does not automatically translate into putting Tank Car engines in the back of a Diahatsu.

Nope. I already proved how ridiculous engine swap can be. Sure modding is done, there are probably lots of illegal and power boost cars. Even in F1 they have KERS and movable wings to give more drag. The possibilites is endless.

These things are not meant to be in GT game. As I said may be they can have some really popular and unique modded cars but engine swap or drive train option is a horrible idea

You've only proved how ridiculous you can be. Engine swaps are not ridiculous, fact. They're not illegal, fact. You don't get to decide what does or does not "belong" in GT, fact (though you can have an opinion on this, which will be shot down if it's a pathetic opinion).

Engine swaps and drivetrain swaps are both excellent ideas, especially since they are realistic, very common in the auto world, and deeply ingrained in car culture. And what do you know, GT is related to all of that.

Engine swap = Idea wanted by so many (so realistic too) and not wanted by other for dumb reasons.
Drivetrain swap = This is dumb idea as it is more work...

They're both equally valid.