Is Kaz blaming himself?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sele1981
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i think i read all these same posts around the gt4 delays.

b
 
And when I see a huge list of games that were originally planned for 2009 being pushed to 2010 I start to wonder whether this is a business move as opposed to technical difficulties.

Could be the "YLOD" they wouldn't want to sell a whole bunch of defective PS3 with GT5 so maybe they had to delay it to work out manufacturing problems. Too much of a risk to rush something they would have to fix for free.
 
This "setback" is not due to polish and perfection. It is simply due to PD biting off way more than they can chew, and getting too wrapped up in a case of diminishing returns.

Sometimes I wonder if Gran Turismo became too big for its own good.
 
I've never heard so much whining in my entire life, when will people realize that the longer a game is in developement with a good team, the better quality and more polished it becomes. With this delay, PD can:

- Perfect the damage model, add it to more cars.
- Optimize the graphics.
- Optimize online performance.
- Bug test any glitches.
- Add many little details (as seen in the pit crews and paddle shift animations in the new videos).
- Weather/Night tracks?
- Improved sound?

When will people realize that saying it doesn't mean it's necessarily true?

It's entirely possible the game is delayed becuase of snags and issues or just unsurmountable challenges the dev team faced and the result would be that longer doesn't mean it's better.

If the logic is true that longer is better, then if one house on a street took 3 times longer than the others to build, it must be 3 times bettter right?

Or maybe some of the wood used was subpar and work had to be redone.

Maybe they had a sloppy carpenter or two and time was needed to fix their mistakes?

Maybe it was built on a sink hole that had to be filled in?

The point is that saying "the longer they take the better it is" doesn't make it true. Taking longer can mean any number of things, only one of which might be that it's better.

This "setback" is not due to polish and perfection. It is simply due to PD biting off way more than they can chew, and getting too wrapped up in a case of diminishing returns.

Been saying that pretty much for a while now... 👍
 
There is no way this isn't going to sound like flamebate, but... after looking at your list...

I don't own a PS3.
THIS IS CLASSIC! :lol:

This "setback" is not due to polish and perfection. It is simply due to PD biting off way more than they can chew, and getting too wrapped up in a case of diminishing returns.
You really lack in the comprehension department. Name one developer which had to create a game in the midst of another game's development cycle, and it not have an influence. A full game mind you, not a minigame like R&C Quest For Booty.
 
I remember an interview where they asked kaz that people thought we wouldn't see the game till 2010 and he said no, its coming sooner.

Gt5 is a joke, from GT4 its obviously the only thing they've done is add Cockpit view, 15 cars on track, Better Graphics, and online where cars look like they are sliding all over and Ferrari? 6 years for that?

also, people thinking they are delaying because of the PSP version? am I the only one who couldn't care less about the PSP game? seriously, 4 cars on track & challenge mode as the career which were SO lame in GT4.
 
THIS IS CLASSIC! :lol:

It's classic that I only own a 360 and have not experienced many delayed games, yet you rattle off a list of PS3 games that are all delayed and express that most games are delayed?

Please do explain...
 
I can guarantee you that every game you have ever played has suffered delays. Just because you were never informed of them, doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Features get cut from projects / games / whatever in order to make the deadline. This is what I alluded to in my previous post, when I mentioned compromise.

You either hit the deadline, or you don't, but you'll probably make a compromise either way.

In that respect, PD definitely has bitten off more than they can chew, on more than one occasion, and will definitely do it again. It's always nice to know where your limits are, and exceed them anyway.
 
So an idea 💡 lets release GT5 never 💡 so it will be perfect when it´s done 💡

No, I didn't say that, I said it releasing in March gives it more time to polish and add new features then rush it out this year.
 
So why is it OK that they launch in March 2010 in Japan? By your reckoning, they should delay it by another 12 months at least so that they can perfect the damage model even more, add even more cars, eliminate more glitches, improve the sound even more... When does it end? Why not add 20 more tracks, put the full F1 series in there...

This "setback" is not due to polish and perfection. It is simply due to PD biting off way more than they can chew, and getting too wrapped up in a case of diminishing returns.


There simply isn't enough facts to tell how far along GT5 is, especially by your speculation. The only people that know are PD! I'm saying that if it's really not ready to be finished and this was the plan all along, then people are not doing nothing but whining and being impatient!

I rather they finish it when it's ready and have it worth it then to release in December '09 like speculated, so instead of people bitching about it being released only 3 months after, people would bitch about bugs and whatever else they could nitpick!

People are so hypocritical, they whine when it's gonna miss '09 by 3 months in Japan, but I know damn well, people woulda bitched more if there were any issues with the game. Gamers are the hardest people to please in the world, no matter how innovative and polished, they'll still nitpick and whine like so many people are doing in these forums! Be glad we atleast know a March 2009 for Japan in concrete!
 
You really lack in the comprehension department. Name one developer which had to create a game in the midst of another game's development cycle, and it not have an influence. A full game mind you, not a minigame like R&C Quest For Booty.
You clearly lack a memory too. GT3 was pushed back time and time again. As was GT4 to a degree. Let's look at some NA release dates:

GT3 - July 2001
GT4 - February 2005
Forza, it's equal on the Xbox - May 2005

PD had absolutely no competition for GT3, and during the development of GT4 had no comprehension of how good Forza would be. Despite that, both GT3 and GT4 were pushed back time and time again, with staggered regional releases, purely to perfect the game according to their own lofty, often unrealistic, standards. So, please don't go trying to tell me that PD pushed back their games because of another game being developed mid-cycle. I have no idea why you mention other developers - it's got nothing to do with the thread.

We all know that Kaz is a bit of a perfectionist, it shows in the games, but all that means is he is never happy with the product, so it gets pushed back all the time. This 2010 announcement is not because of Forza III forcing them to go back to the drawing board in a panic. It's because they simply have not finished the game, and as usual, just push it back because they have no idea when to say enough is enough.
 
It's classic that I only own a 360...
And speak critically of PS3 games as if you have either first hand experience or a vested interest in them. :lol:

There is a reason I don't go to the XBox section and slag the system and the games, dude. It's called not being a hypocrite.

PD had absolutely no competition for GT3, and during the development of GT4 had no comprehension of how good Forza would be. Despite that, both GT3 and GT4 were pushed back time and time again, with staggered regional releases, purely to perfect the game according to their own lofty, often unrealistic, standards. So, please don't go trying to tell me that PD pushed back their games because of another game being developed mid-cycle. I have no idea why you mention other developers - it's got nothing to do with the thread.

We all know that Kaz is a bit of a perfectionist, it shows in the games, but all that means is he is never happy with the product, so it gets pushed back all the time. This 2010 announcement is not because of Forza III forcing them to go back to the drawing board in a panic. It's because they simply have not finished the game, and as usual, just push it back because they have no idea when to say enough is enough.
You need to stop putting words into my posts.

First bold: Kaz gave interviews in which he said that the PS3 was incredibly difficult to work with compared to the PS1. It was common knowledge that developers hated the PS2, and many still do. On top of that, the 3-4000 polygon cars were now taking 4 to 5 times as long to model with 12-15,000 polys because of the added complexity. They also were fooling around with a more advanced physics model. Everything culminated in GT3 being about as big as GT1, and having less to do.

Second bold: I made no such claim about any game other than GT5 and GT Mobile. In interviews, Kaz admitted that being forced to work on GTPSP when he wasn't ready for it was a big drag. When you have all of Polyphony Digital stopping work on everything but GT Mobile, what does that mean, exactly?

Third bold: I made no remarks about FW3 in regard to GT5. I made speculation on backlash from the GT fans throwing tantrums about the damage build in the GamesCom demo.

That is what I said. That is what I meant. Don't create words that don't exist.
 
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And speak critically of PS3 games as if you have either first hand experience or a vested interest in them. :lol:

There is a reason I don't go to the XBox section and slag the system and the games, dude. It's called not being a hypocrite.

I am pretty sure even in a direct conversation (well on the forum, you know what I mean) with you I have said that I am particularly interested in GT5 becuase I am excited and will be buying a PS3 and GT5 (and maybe a new wheel) assuming GT5 is good enough. I mean isn't that about as much as you can ask of someone to be interested in a game, that I would buy a whole system to play it when I already have another system with a lot of great games on it?

And let's not forget, that since I don't have a PS3 I must have no first hand experience with PS3 games right?

Not that I have friends with PS3's that I play right?

It's classic that you want to hate on anyone who isn't kneeling before PD and KY so much that you ignore the truth to make one that suits your needs.

The total irony here is that between us, you were going to have to pay $60 for GT5... I was gonig to have to pay $400+ for GT5... yet you seem to think somehow I shouldn't get to voice my opinion...

Fail.

Now back to the part about how a 360 owner has little problem with delayed game release and you provide a list of PS3 games... is that also classic? Unless of course you just want to stick to the truncated quote you used for my post to help with your silly arguement about me.
 
Be glad we atleast know a March 2009 for Japan in concrete!
Is it in concrete, though? Pretty sure there is some debate over the accuracy of the translation. Japanese is highly idiomatic, and it's easy to screw up the "gist" of a phrase / sentence.

I read on the comments of the news post (here on GTP - y'all enjoy now, y'hear?) that the translation was interpreted as "in six months time" but others have interpreted it as "within the next six months". (I think I've written that in three threads now.)

Hopefully Jordan will get the chance to check that out.
... GT3 was pushed back time and time again. As was GT4 to a degree.

...

... both GT3 and GT4 were pushed back time and time again, with staggered regional releases, purely to perfect the game according to their own lofty, often unrealistic, standards.
What's wrong with having dreams? Sure, you'll have to compromise along the way, but it's better than not aiming high enough and basically under-achieving.

So, please don't go trying to tell me that PD pushed back their games because of another game being developed mid-cycle. I have no idea why you mention other developers - it's got nothing to do with the thread.
He was referring specifically to GT5. It does have competition, and it has had GTPSP developed and released (soon) within its development cycle.
We all know that Kaz is a bit of a perfectionist ... because of Forza III forcing them to go back to the drawing board in a panic. It's because they simply have not finished the game, and as usual, just push it back because they have no idea when to say enough is enough.
We know they haven't finished the game, and if Kaz really is such a perfectionist, then yes, he probably does blame himself to some degree...

But I'm sure that PD had a good idea of the features they wanted in the final iteration of the game, long before development of Forza had begun. With each iteration of GT, Kaz gets closer to implementing all of the features he wants. Some of these features are no mean feat. Coding is not something that takes x amount of time, and can be crossed off at the end. It's tricky, prone to hiccups and stumbling points, requires almost endless iteration etc. Much like developing an entire series of racing games, you need to know where to draw a line under it. I'm pretty sure Kaz and PD know what they are doing. We can 'judge' their judgment once we have the game, not before.
 
I am pretty sure even in a direct conversation (well on the forum, you know what I mean) with you I have said that I am particularly interested in GT5 becuase I am excited and will be buying a PS3 and GT5 (and maybe a new wheel) assuming GT5 is good enough. I mean isn't that about as much as you can ask of someone to be interested in a game, that I would buy a whole system to play it when I already have another system with a lot of great games on it?

And let's not forget, that since I don't have a PS3 I must have no first hand experience with PS3 games right?

Not that I have friends with PS3's that I play right?

It's classic that you want to hate on anyone who isn't kneeling before PD and KY so much that you ignore the truth to make one that suits your needs.

The total irony here is that between us, you were going to have to pay $60 for GT5... I was gonig to have to pay $400+ for GT5... yet you seem to think somehow I shouldn't get to voice my opinion...

Fail.

Now back to the part about how a 360 owner has little problem with delayed game release and you provide a list of PS3 games... is that also classic? Unless of course you just want to stick to the truncated quote you used for my post to help with your silly arguement about me.

Hmmm... a thought came up... Will GT5 sell for $60? Long development time and added features usually means a higher development cost.... :scared:
 
Is it in concrete, though? Pretty sure there is some debate over the accuracy of the translation. Japanese is highly idiomatic, and it's easy to screw up the "gist" of a phrase / sentence.

Something I had to say gazillions of times in the previous translation thread.

What's wrong with having dreams? Sure, you'll have to compromise along the way, but it's better than not aiming high enough and basically under-achieving.

Run that one by all the "loyalists" who shortly before TGS were saying "better to go in expecting nothing, aiming low means you won't get let down"

He was referring specifically to GT5. It does have competition, and it has had GTPSP developed and released (soon) within its development cycle.

It's not in any likliehood of being knocked out by the competition, but no competition? That's a pretty bold claim...

But I'm sure that PD had a good idea of the features they wanted in the final iteration of the game, long before development of Forza had begun. With each iteration of GT, Kaz gets closer to implementing all of the features he wants.

Interesting... I have been told by a few on here that Kaz did not want damage at all, it was forced on him.

I'm pretty sure Kaz and PD know what they are doing. We can 'judge' their judgment once we have the game, not before.

I am not fond of the blind certainty and faith method of thinking, and I am even less fond of the idea you shouldn't voice your opinion until it's all over. As I pointed out elsewhere, it's very easy to say when not to do things, but since it seems:

You shouldn't complain too early because the game's not final

but

You shoudln't complain too late, because it's too late to change anything

When is the appropriate time to judge and give feedback?
 
Hmmm... a thought came up... Will GT5 sell for $60? Long development time and added features usually means a higher development cost.... :scared:

Oh man I really hope it does... $70 tops...

I think it will though, the only thing is if they aren't making enough money on that, expect the difference to be made up for in paid DLC.
 
Amar's winds allude to two versions, each having different prices. I reckon they will be charging more for a premium version, not requiring further payment for, e.g., downloadable content. The base version oughtn't cost any more than the ordinary figure for your region (i.e. $60), it may possibly even be cheaper than this, but I wouldn't bet on it.
 
Are you implying they are going to release a Prologue 2.
 
Amar's winds allude to two versions, each having different prices. I reckon they will be charging more for a premium version, not requiring further payment for, e.g., downloadable content. The base version oughtn't cost any more than the ordinary figure for your region (i.e. $60), it may possibly even be cheaper than this, but I wouldn't bet on it.


Well I guess fancy versions are kind of the norm now (ie collectors edition etc). It'll be interesting to see what the people who condem FM2's car collection DLC say if GT5 ends up selling you stuff too...
 
Run that one by all the "loyalists" who shortly before TGS were saying "better to go in expecting nothing, aiming low means you won't get let down"

This is different. This is about managing your expectations of somebody else, not of yourself. I tend to subscribe to that way of thinking, it allows me to continue to do useful things in my life, and to be pleasantly surprised at intervals. A bit like finding that pound-coin in your jeans, or a chocolate bar in your drawer at work.

Interesting... I have been told by a few on here that Kaz did not want damage at all, it was forced on him.
Damage is but one example. We had it in GT2, nobody liked it so Kaz was reticent to pursue it again simply because of the "opposition" of the car manufacturers. That's the way I see it anyway.

I am not fond of the blind certainty and faith method of thinking, and I am even less fond of the idea you shouldn't voice your opinion until it's all over.
That's just the way I work. I like to see all the facts before making a decision.

When is the appropriate time to judge and give feedback?
Are you actually giving feedback, or just whinging on a forum? I'm sure Sony / P.D. accept well constructed letters / emails giving feedback about their games, or the painful waiting between releases. They may not respond, but I'm sure they'll read it.
 
Nearly every game I have waited for has experienced delays, publicly or otherwise. This is the nature of the video-games industry. Only a fool would truly believe a release date at any point in a game's development. Some of you ought to try managing a project, of any scale, and realise that compromises have to be made. Maybe PD are trying not to compromise too much. To say nothing of the fact that we technically don't have a release date yet... (Kaz said "within the next 6 months")

As for being a follower, I think we all know who came first. It's easy to copy a concept and build on it. I do that every day.

It's not so much the delays that are the problem, but the reason behind those delays (it's stupid). It's maddening to think they're delaying the game for an app that the fanbase doesn't need in the first place, which we all know is for the profits.

Also, history is littered with tales of empires and companies that were innovators at one point, but got complacent, made the wrong moves, and don't exist anymore. With GT, we're starting to see many features we've been asking for throughout the years (about a decade?), but only now they're being included, after they've debuted on the Forza series. That's not to say Turn 10 hasn't copied many concepts that the GT series established since 1998, but PD had an opportunity to be a leader in these things along the way. Instead they have focused on trivial elements such as photomode, which is a nice feature to have, but not important as say, online racing, in the scheme of a simulator.

Well... just to reiterate, PD doesn't own SONY, it's the other way round. Kazunori-dono may be VP of SCEJ, or whatever he is, but he's just one voice on the board of directors. He doesn't have the authority to tell SONY what to do, and the Japanese are pretty strict about the adherence to authority and chain of command. While a talented member might get away with throwing a tantrum in a western boardroom, it would just about get you killed in a Japanese company.

You could be right; in fact I'd rather believe this was Sony's idea. (Marketing departments are inherently evil :grumpy:).

But my original point was that, whomever thought this up, it was a horrible idea. And I don't think it's too much to ask (like Leonidaes suggested) that they (Sony as a whole) focus on developing GT5 rather than using the series as a trojan horse to sell PSPs, where it doesn't belong.

Interesting... I have been told by a few on here that Kaz did not want damage at all, it was forced on him.

He did at one point say that he didn't really want damage on cars. I'm not sure if it really was him speaking or the licensing dept trying to justify their inability to get manufacturers to agree.
 
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It's not so much the delays that are the problem, but the reason behind those delays (it's stupid). It's maddening to think they're delaying the game for an app that the fanbase doesn't need in the first place, which we all know is for the profits.
The use of the word delay here is unjustified, since we were never told precisely when the game would surface. I think it's pretty obvious now that Kaz's comment about "we can release it when we want" meant that they can draw a line under the content / feature-set they have (neither of which necessarily make a game, by the way), but there are always other things they could add.

In that sense, the "delays" have meant we'll probably get an extra feature or two (good for the feature whores). As for your original point, I would agree that it's a bit tenuous to shelve GT5 temporarily in favour of GTPSP like they did this year. But if GTPSP sells well, I don't think anyone will think it was a mistake unless GT5 turns out to be utter rubbish - and you'd have to be seriously complacent for this to happen.

With GT, we're starting to see many features we've been asking for throughout the years (about a decade?), but only now they're being included, after they've debuted on the Forza series. That's not to say Turn 10 hasn't copied many concepts that the GT series established since 1998, but PD had an opportunity to be a leader in these things along the way. Instead they have focused on trivial elements such as photomode, which is a nice feature to have, but not important as say, online racing, in the scheme of a simulator.
Many, many features in modern racing games have been in other games (not necessarily on consoles) for years before Forza arrived, so it didn't really "debut" anything new at all. The only thing it did, perhaps, was make these more accessible for the console crowd. Rewind is about the only truly new feature to have come along in the last few years; this "debuted" in RD Grid, of course. (I'm open to other suggestions of truly new features.)

Online mode in Forza must have been relatively easy to implement, as MS already had the infrastructure and all the hard stuff had been done already. I'd imagine XBox developers have access to good netcode, too, so T10 were quids in. PD have never done online code before and the PSN was immature. It takes a lot of expertise and experience to get things done, either that or a shed-load of money. :scared:

Only GT5P comes close to being a simulator, in my opinion - GT4 came close, but its collision handling and tyre models let it down a bit. GT5 ought to continue the trend towards greater realism, but improve accessibility, too - widening the target audience at both ends.

By the way, I really like photomode!

You could be right; in fact I'd rather believe this was Sony's idea.
I think it's the only sensible explanation... 👍

But my original point was that, whomever thought this up, it was a horrible idea. And I don't think it's too much to ask (like Leonidaes suggested) that they (Sony as a whole) focus on developing GT5 rather than using the series as a trojan horse to sell PSPs, where it doesn't belong.
Again, if it sells, you'll technically be wrong... although I do kind of agree with you in a sense. I'd like to give the game a go first, before damning it so.
 
I got to grab my old thread out now :)

Today I´ve seen the same "GT5 is 90% done" news on many games pages. And all of them wrote it on a sarcastic way!

Just my thougts...
 
The standards of spelling and grammar on this forum are shocking!
 
The standards of spelling and grammar on this forum are shocking!

No, it's not and if you had read a bit more here, you would know this.

As for the 90% "News", this is pretty embarrassing indeed, doesn't Kaz know he said the exact same thing half a year ago already?
I lost my faith in him ages ago around when GT3 came out anyway, not even half the stuff he promised made it actually in. :ouch:
I love GT games for sure, but I think of Kaz more of a Bernie Eccelstone of the gaming industry so I don't get too disappointed or surprised by his statements. :sly:
 
The standards of spelling and grammar on this forum are shocking!

Wow, really?

What forums do you usually visit then?
 
I realize that these mistakes come from people for whom English isn't a first language or people with mental problems but nowadays many browsers have built in spell checkers so I think they could at least make the effort!

'I'm 100% sure it's SONY !!! Even if GT5 isn't redy yet, its becose GTpsp and... yes it's SONY fault again!'
 
I realize that these mistakes come from people for whom English isn't a first language or people with mental problems but nowadays many browsers have built in spell checkers so I think they could at least make the effort!

'I'm 100% sure it's SONY !!! Even if GT5 isn't redy yet, its becose GTpsp and... yes it's SONY fault again!'

If you're going to criticize, all I'm saying is make sure you don't make the same mistakes you're referring to.
 
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