Is SRF really that unrealistic?

[Vagabond]

I, for one, am grateful that we have moderators who can tell us when our posts are ridiculous.

Did I tell you that? I really didn't, did I? I stated that the discussion is currently the most ridiculous, which is a general comparison of the subject matter relative to other topics in the GT6 section.

There are many confusions and convolutions since the topic began but the facts remain the same; SRF gives tyres more grip as they begin to slide, so can be pushed harder. In essence, this means that the grip at peak slip angle is greater than without SRF. Grip is not infinite, though, so pushing harder means there is more to lose when grip is lost. IE, the drop-off is steeper/feels sharper.

This is in no way realistic and the 'feel' that people are citing when grip is lost, is the drop-off that's is an inevitable result of being able to push harder. [assumption] PD probably don't account for this when modelling the tyre's slip curve because the assumption may be that people choosing to use SRF are generally of lower skill or experience and are likely not pushing as hard. [/assumption]

The quality of the content here at GTPlanet is our utmost priority. With that in mind, let us move from a discussion of hypothetical SRF physics and instead focus our idle time on all the new content we didn't receive from PD in the last month. Think before you post. The life you save could be your own.

Misplaced sarcasm noted. How about I play the stalwart jobsworth instead of joking around?

 

[Vegard]

I think this thread would benefit greatly if everyone took a stock Honda S2000 '99-'04 around Tsukuba and drove a number of laps without SRF, then with SRF.
Focus your attention towards lateral grip dynamics (front to rear slip dynamics in particular). Forget about lap times and traction for a moment.
Compare your observation with your theories presented in this thread.

I suspect a few might be surprised* by their findings.

*Requires a certain level of objectivity to activte, threshold may vary on an individual basis, batteries sold seperately.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Should add water on track at 40%-50% and sports tire, that will help a lot

 

[Vegard]

Should add water on track at 40%-50% and sports tire, that will help a lot

CS will highlight the change in front-to-rear slip dynamics more clearly IMO.

For referance one can try with SH or SM with SRF off and see if there's a similar change in dynamics. If not, that's evidence confirming that SRF isn't simply a linear grip multiplier.

 

[Vagabond]

I think this thread would benefit greatly if everyone took a stock Honda S2000 '99-'04 around Tsukuba and drove a number of laps without SRF, then with SRF.
Focus your attention towards lateral grip dynamics (front to rear slip dynamics in particular).

Any increase in grip is also going have a more exaggerated reaction to weight transfer, hence the change in balance. This was true in GT5 as well and a car with understeer tendencies could show an oversteer tenndency with SRF activated due to the increased grip on the front tyre off-setting the rear grip when weight was tranferred from the rear during braking and cornering. So especially exaggerated if trail braking.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

CS will highlight the change in front-to-rear slip dynamics more clearly IMO.

For referance one can try with SH or SM with SRF off and see if there's a similar change in dynamics. If not, that's evidence confirming that SRF isn't simply a linear grip multiplier.

Comfort tire has more grip and more progressive than sport tire in the rain ( more than 40% water on track ), SRF ON effect would be more pronounced, from straight line traction, cornering grip to loss of traction with sports tire.

 

[Vegard]

Any increase in grip is also going have a more exaggerated reaction to weight transfer, hence the change in balance. This was true in GT5 as well and a car with understeer tendencies could show an oversteer tenndency with SRF activated due to the increased grip on the front tyre off-setting the rear grip when weight was tranferred from the rear during braking and cornering. So especially exaggerated if trail braking.

I was thinking about that earlier today while pondering how the actual Force is applied.
I also briefly mentioned it in a previous post in this thread.

Comfort tire has more grip and more progressive than sport tire in the rain ( more than 40% water on track ), SRF ON effect would be more pronounced, from straight line traction, cornering grip to loss of traction with sports tire.

Yes, I agree, but for the sake of keeping the amount of factors/variables to a minimum I picked a straightforward combo.

I'll make sure I run some laps in the wet with SH in addition though, if you think I would benefit from it 👍

Edit - lost in translation

 

[Johnnypenso]

Focus your attention towards lateral grip dynamics (front to rear slip dynamics in particular).

Most of the people you're trying to reach...yeah you lost them with those three words

 

[Vegard]

Most of the people you're trying to reach...yeah you lost them with those three words

 

[ShamrockGT]

SRF adds grip in GT6, it's not realistic.

ABS adds grip in GT6, it's not realistic.

Lotta people use ABS in GT6. Is SRF cheap grip? In my book yeah, and so is ABS.


Funny...

**MAYBE**

Using grip adders, be it SRF or ABS, add more grip on a bad tune. The better the set up and there won't be as much bonus grip.

SRF adds grip all over, anything poorly set up causing grip loss will get the grip boost to kick in, end result higher cornering grip, and accel/decell traction.

When ABS is on it's better when something like 0/0 camber is getting more grip to kick in, the more it kicks in, the higher cornering grip will be.

I really don't get why so many use ABS, and frown upon SRF or take the time to set track grip to real.

Driving Assist are so everybody can enjoy the game, fine by me. I enjoy Assist Free Driving, it doesn't matter if most use some form of driving assist or another.

It's just a big ol' hairy chest thing, Shamrock. The same ones on here decrying the use of any aids will beg for someone else's setup in a skinny minute. I use ABS because I like stopping quickly and hate the screeching stronger brakes bring without it; I never use AS or ASM; and I tune my own cars to get the most out of SRF, get it the best I know how, then if I'm not happy without it, bring on the SRF. I ain't askeered.

SRF adds grip in GT6, it's not realistic.

ABS adds grip in GT6, it's not realistic.

Lotta people use ABS in GT6. Is SRF cheap grip? In my book yeah, and so is ABS.

Funny...

**MAYBE**

Using grip adders, be it SRF or ABS, add more grip on a bad tune. The better the set up and there won't be as much bonus grip.

SRF adds grip all over, anything poorly set up causing grip loss will get the grip boost to kick in, end result higher cornering grip, and accel/decell traction.

When ABS is on it's better when something like 0/0 camber is getting more grip to kick in, the more it kicks in, the higher cornering grip will be.

I really don't get why so many use ABS, and frown upon SRF or take the time to set track grip to real.

Driving Assist are so everybody can enjoy the game, fine by me. I enjoy Assist Free Driving, it doesn't matter if most use some form of driving assist or another.

ABS exists in real life, SRF does not. Taking ABS off a car while challenging, isn't "realistic" for most modern cars. SRF on the other hand is magic fairy dust, and doesn't exist on any car.

ABS exists in real life, SRF does not. Taking ABS off a car while challenging, isn't "realistic" for most modern cars. SRF on the other hand is magic fairy dust, and doesn't exist on any car.

Yeah but read the in game description of GT6 ABS. It clearly says it reduces grip loss braking and generates increased cornering grip.

Yeah but read the in game description of GT6 ABS. It clearly says it reduces grip loss braking and generates increased cornering grip.

No, it really doesn't say that. It says you can configure to change whether grip is allocated to braking or cornering.

'Adjust the sensitivity of the Anti-Lock Braking System, which prevents the wheels from locking. When the slider is all the way to the left, ABS is switched off. The higher the number, the more of the available tire grip will be used for cornering than braking.'
From the NA digital download. The section in bold is referring to trail braking, it doesn't create extra grip.

I have to say, night racing is absolutely stunning. Did an infinite lap Arcade Mode race on Bathurst in an LFA with HUD off and full time progression; just jaw-dropping. I stared at the sky more than the road.

Yeah, night sky is awesome on GT6

Bathurst is an awesome track, great replay

Why how and all that doesn't make a difference. The end result is the same, easier and faster with ABS on. IMO yes it lets drivers take corners faster, that's why ABS-1 times are faster than ABS-0 times for most people.

How are they faster if not cornering faster?????????

I'm not hating anybody, I'm just saying Driving assist are all driving assist, none better or worse than any other, and IMO no assist driving does not have a star with ABS-1 next to it, to me it means ALL assist off.

Then you will also see Tuners use Racing Brakes on cars with SH tires. This makes the car fast with ABS-1 BUT take ABS off and the car is un-drivable. This tells us the tuning is taking as much advantage from ABS-1 as possible.

 

[eclipsee]

This is the most ridiculous discussion currently in the GT6 section of GTPlanet. That's quite a lofty position to occupy.

This kind of discussions are the most fun and entertaining ones , in addition, collaterally one can learn one thing or two.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

GT6 ABS = brake assist, nothing less, nothing more. It doesn't simulate real life ABS system.

 

[cjr3559]

I think this thread would benefit greatly if everyone took a stock Honda S2000 '99-'04 around Tsukuba and drove a number of laps without SRF, then with SRF.
Focus your attention towards lateral grip dynamics (front to rear slip dynamics in particular). Forget about lap times and traction for a moment.
Compare your observation with your theories presented in this thread.

I suspect a few might be surprised* by their findings.

*Requires a certain level of objectivity to activte, threshold may vary on an individual basis, batteries sold seperately.

Did this test, and there's no doubt that SRF is a major driving assist. It doesn't seem like it's helping that much at first, but there's definitely a difference. I've always been a non-SRF guy and haven't used SRF since I can recall.

I ran a few laps with a '99 S2000 with CS tires and all assists off (including SRF obviously). Then I ran the same car, same set-up, with SRF *on*. If I pushed the car in the corners it would still slip a little. Then I ran more laps again with SRF *off*. I immediately lost control in the first corner.

So, I think it's possible to be lulled into thinking that SRF *on* simulates the car in real life, but I disagree. The true driving test is going from SRF *on* to SRF *off*.

Meanwhile, I did some ABS testing; and to me, it borders on a video game driving assist. I read that the S2000 came standard with ABS, though admittedly with the setting on '0' it had a tendency to lock up under hard braking turning into the corners. However, ABS 'off' paled in comparison to the setting '1' with no lockup, let alone '5' or even '10'.

 

[et_]

Did this test, and there's no doubt that SRF is a major driving assist. It doesn't seem like it's helping that much at first, but there's definitely a difference. I've always been a non-SRF guy and haven't used SRF since I can recall.

I ran a few laps with a '99 S2000 with CS tires and all assists off (including SRF obviously). Then I ran the same car, same set-up, with SRF *on*. If I pushed the car in the corners it would still slip a little. Then I ran more laps again with SRF *off*. I immediately lost control in the first corner.

So, I think it's possible to be lulled into thinking that SRF *on* simulates the car in real life, but I disagree. The true driving test is going from SRF *on* to SRF *off*.

Meanwhile, I did some ABS testing; and to me, it borders on a video game driving assist. I read that the S2000 came standard with ABS, though admittedly with the setting on '0' it had a tendency to lock up under hard braking turning into the corners. However, ABS 'off' paled in comparison to the setting '1' with no lockup, let alone '5' or even '10'.

Apart from the fact that when I went from SRF ON to SRF OFF, it took less than a lap to get used to it and know the limits, how do you know the way it grips when ON is'nt like reality, and OFF just has too little grip?

Again, I've not spent an extended amount of time on a track, but when I'm there, the car does'nt let go that easy.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Apart from the fact that when I went from SRF ON to SRF OFF, it took less than a lap to get used to it and know the limits, how do you know the way it grips when ON is'nt like reality, and OFF just has too little grip?

Because even on Comfort Hard tires with SRF OFF I can match Randy Probst's Streets of Willow lap time with the BRZ. I'm a decent driver, but I'm not that decent. With CH tires and SRF ON I'm a full second faster. And this is just with times on my first lap out with those tires and settings.

There's no way that the system is providing "too little grip" with SRF OFF if a hack like me can match the times of a driver like Probst with CH tires and SRF OFF.

Again, I've not spent an extended amount of time on a track, but when I'm there, the car does'nt let go that easy.

When you're in a car on a track, you can feel the changes in grip and the beginnings of a car "letting go" much more easily than you can in a video game, even one with FFB that's as good as GT6's.

It's also worth noting that the type of tire greatly changes how rapidly a car transitions from "sliding but holding on" to "spinning." Street tires, even fairly sporty ones, have lots more warning before letting go than racing tires do. This is one reason why some people have trouble with racing tires in the game. Racing tires tend to have massive grip but also to "let go" abruptly.

What SRF does, based on how it feels to me, is smooth the transition from "peak grip" to the falloff zone, effectively giving you a "plateau" of peak grip as opposed to a "peak" and allowing you to hold the car at higher slip angles than you should be able to. In the video game though, those first few degrees of slip angle aren't really felt as easily and it's easy to miss the fact that the car is sliding until you have a substantial amount of slip occurring, which is why there's a perception that the falloff is happening faster than it really is with SRF OFF.

 

[ShamrockGT]

The higher the number, the more of the available tire grip will be used for cornering than braking.'

Thanks, this is my point, it adds cornering grip according to PD... It's not simply an Antilock OR Assisted brake system. It's more than that, it prevents lock, assist braking AND adds cornering grip..

If you spend a lot of time driving with no ABS, then click on ABS-1, even at 1 the extra grip is clearly there. This lets the driver enter the corner at higher speed, corner faster and exit at a higher speed. Any grip the driver may have lost braking hard/late/ & using high steering lock, gets transferred into cornering grip allowing the driver to complete the corner faster with grip to spare... Not too different from SRF, I see them both as "Grip Assist"... Nothing wrong with using them, just many pots calling kettles black has me a little confused.

 

[et_]

Because even on Comfort Hard tires with SRF OFF I can match Randy Probst's Streets of Willow lap time with the BRZ. I'm a decent driver, but I'm not that decent. With CH tires and SRF ON I'm a full second faster. And this is just with times on my first lap out with those tires and settings.

There's no way that the system is providing "too little grip" with SRF OFF if a hack like me can match the times of a driver like Probst with CH tires and SRF OFF.



When you're in a car on a track, you can feel the changes in grip and the beginnings of a car "letting go" much more easily than you can in a video game, even one with FFB that's as good as GT6's.

It's also worth noting that the type of tire greatly changes how rapidly a car transitions from "sliding but holding on" to "spinning." Street tires, even fairly sporty ones, have lots more warning before letting go than racing tires do. This is one reason why some people have trouble with racing tires in the game. Racing tires tend to have massive grip but also to "let go" abruptly.

What SRF does, based on how it feels to me, is smooth the transition from "peak grip" to the falloff zone, effectively giving you a "plateau" of peak grip as opposed to a "peak" and allowing you to hold the car at higher slip angles than you should be able to. In the video game though, those first few degrees of slip angle aren't really felt as easily and it's easy to miss the fact that the car is sliding until you have a substantial amount of slip occurring, which is why there's a perception that the falloff is happening faster than it really is with SRF OFF.

Laptimes is somewhat difficult to compare to IRL because the cars in GT is generally faster in a straight line than they should be. About a year ago I crashed my Impreza WRX STI PSEIII, tuned by HKS to 360bhp. that car did about 270kmh flat out, and it took a while to get there. in GT6, even the stock STI does 282 kmh, and it reaches that speed much faster. If I tune it to the same level, it does well above 300kmh.
add the fact that you SHOULD be a bit faster than Randy, because you are able to take alot higher risks, if you're a good driver, you should be about 1 sec faster, if you can keep up at alien speed, about 2 seconds is reasonable. and streets of willow is a bad track for comparision, because in the game you can use the side of the road to your advantage alot more. also, there are drivers IRL that are over a second faster than Randy Probst. I'm pretty sure lets say... JP Montoya would blister Probst's times.

 

[et_]

Thanks, this is my point, it adds cornering grip according to PD... It's not simply an Antilock OR Assisted brake system. It's more than that, it prevents lock, assist braking AND adds cornering grip..

If you spend a lot of time driving with no ABS, then click on ABS-1, even at 1 the extra grip is clearly there. This lets the driver enter the corner at higher speed, corner faster and exit at a higher speed. Any grip the driver may have lost braking hard/late/ & using high steering lock, gets transferred into cornering grip allowing the driver to complete the corner faster with grip to spare... Not too different from SRF, I see them both as "Grip Assist"... Nothing wrong with using them, just many pots calling kettles black has me a little confused.

Thats not really what he was saying, and I don't think it's correct either, Given that the tyres have enough grip, and I get enough practice, I'm almost as fast without ABS, so it's not really giving you more grip, but it makes you able to brake more while turning, and an ABS system does that IRL aswell, maybe not as good, but still.
The difference between GT ABS and IRL ABS is the IRL ABS lets go of the brake fluid pressure to a specific wheel if its locked up, and when it starts rolling again, it applys the pressure again. and modern ABS system can do this up to 20 times/second. maybe some of the modern hypercars can do even better, I dont know.
In GT6 however, it smoothly lets go of brake pressure to that wheel, allowing all 4 wheels braknig pressure to stay at the point just before lock-up individually.
Today, that is'nt realistic, but I can see someting like that being developed in the future. (installing 4 individual Mercedes SBS systems would recreate someting like that)

 

[Zenmervolt]

Thanks, this is my point, it adds cornering grip according to PD... It's not simply an Antilock OR Assisted brake system. It's more than that, it prevents lock, assist braking AND adds cornering grip..

There is no possible way to logically take that meaning from what @mistersafeway quoted. None at all.

The quote does NOT say that it "adds cornering grip." The quote says that it dedicates more of the fixed amount of grip, which doesn't change, to cornering, which reduces braking force.

Think of it this way, you have 100 units of total grip available to the tire. If you use 100 unit for braking (a tire that is at maximum threshold braking amount), then there are 0 units of grip available for cornering. If you are using 90 units of grip for braking, then there are 10 units of grip available for cornering. The total amount, 100 units, does not change.

What ABS in GT5 and GT6 does is allocate some of those 100 units for cornering, reducing maximum braking force below the maximum amount of 100 units. It does not give you more than 100 units of grip though, and it does not affect cornering grip when you're not on the brakes. This is why using high ABS settings makes braking distances much longer; the higher settings reduce the amount of braking force the game will allow the player to apply to the wheels.

The best way to look at "ABS" in GT5 and GT6 is as a pressure limiting valve for the hydraulic system. At ABS 0, there is no limit and you can lock up the brakes in a straight line. At ABS 1, the limit is the maximum amount for straight-line braking, you cannot lock up the brakes in a straight line, but if you're at max braking and try to turn, you still get massive understeer that will throw the car off the track. At ABS 10, you have very little braking force so you have to start braking earlier; however, the benefit is that since the game is artificially limiting total braking force, more of the tire's grip is available for cornering because you're not braking as hard.

Laptimes is somewhat difficult to compare to IRL because the cars in GT is generally faster in a straight line than they should be. About a year ago I crashed my Impreza WRX STI PSEIII, tuned by HKS to 360bhp. that car did about 270kmh flat out, and it took a while to get there. in GT6, even the stock STI does 282 kmh, and it reaches that speed much faster. If I tune it to the same level, it does well above 300kmh.
add the fact that you SHOULD be a bit faster than Randy, because you are able to take alot higher risks, if you're a good driver, you should be about 1 sec faster, if you can keep up at alien speed, about 2 seconds is reasonable. and streets of willow is a bad track for comparision, because in the game you can use the side of the road to your advantage alot more. also, there are drivers IRL that are over a second faster than Randy Probst. I'm pretty sure lets say... JP Montoya would blister Probst's times.

Which is why I used Comfort Hard tires instead of the stock Sport Hard tires that the BRZ comes with as standard to illustrate my point. With the Sport Hard tires that come standard on the car in GT6 I can beat Probst's time by seven seconds. The tires in the game are already far more grippy than they should be, even without SRF. SRF just takes the excessively high grip to another level.

Hell, with Comfort Soft tires on the Ford GT500 (and SRF OFF, of course) I can beat Probst's time by over a second. That's not even remotely close to realistic.

As for there being real life drivers who are faster than Probst, yes, and the capital of Iceland is Reykjavik, but neither of those facts are important here, unless you're somehow asserting that I might be Juan Montoya and simply have forgotten about that fact.

I know where I stack up in driving ability in real life. I can guarantee that I'm not one of those drivers who can beat Probst; if I were, I'd have factory sponsorships from Porsche, Audi, Volvo, and Mazda like he does. And, since I was comparing my times in GT6 to Probst's times, whether JP Montoya could beat Probst is about as relevant to this discussion as the weather in Borneo.

 

[et_]

Which is why I used Comfort Hard tires instead of the stock Sport Hard tires that the BRZ comes with as standard to illustrate my point. With the Sport Hard tires that come standard on the car in GT6 I can beat Probst's time by seven seconds. The tires in the game are already far more grippy than they should be, even without SRF. SRF just takes the excessively high grip to another level.

Hell, with Comfort Soft tires on the Ford GT500 (and SRF OFF, of course) I can beat Probst's time by over a second. That's not even remotely close to realistic.

As for there being real life drivers who are faster than Probst, yes, and the capital of Iceland is Reykjavik, but neither of those facts are important here, unless you're somehow asserting that I might be Juan Montoya and simply have forgotten about that fact.

I know where I stack up in driving ability in real life. I can guarantee that I'm not one of those drivers who can beat Probst; if I were, I'd have factory sponsorships from Porsche, Audi, Volvo, and Mazda like he does. And, since I was comparing my times in GT6 to Probst's times, whether JP Montoya could beat Probst is about as relevant to this discussion as the weather in Borneo.

All I'm saying is that given the same car at streets of willow, me as a "close to alien-speed" driver, should be about 4 seconds faster than Probst. but yeah, 7 seconds is too much.

edit, I also think its hard to know wich tyre is equivalent to reality, the way I see it, the "Racing" tyres are so called "supercompunds" like the Yokohama A005 etc. The "Sports" tyres are road legal R-tyres, like the Toyo Proxies 888 etc. And the "Comfort" tyres are regular road tyres fitted to most road cars, like the Michelin Primacy HP etc.
So for the BRZ, CM probably is the most realistic tyre...

 

[Zenmervolt]

All I'm saying is that given the same car at streets of willow, me as a "close to alien-speed" driver, should be about 4 seconds faster than Probst. but yeah, 7 seconds is too much.

Eh, my point is that I'm definitely not one of those Alien drivers. With a bit of effort (OK, depending on whether I enjoy the track or not) I usually settle into somewhere in the top 2,500 to top 5,000 drivers in the seasonal time trials. Though, admittedly, in the seasonals at Streets of Willow I settled in somewhere in the top 350 (High End Performance lap) to 750 (Plymouth XNR).

I agree that we should be faster than we are in real life in the game (Clarkson's experience with the Acura NSX at Leguna Seca proves that), but it's pretty well established that the tires in GT6 have too much grip even without SRF.

Sorry I got snippy. I get what you're saying, but I still think that the reason SRF feels more natural is simply because we don't get the same sensory feedback in the game so even though the car in the game is experiencing those first bits of slip angle we don't notice it as we would on the track.

 

[ShamrockGT]

Grip retained from being (lost or used????) braking and used for cornering

Where is the grip PD speaks of being used for cornering with ABS coming from??

Grip not lost I guess is grip gained either way, amounts to the same thing.

 

[et_]

Grip retained from being (lost or used????) braking and used for cornering.

Where is the grip PD speaks of being used for cornering coming from??

Grip not lost I guess is grip gained either way, amounts to the same thing.

Read both mine and @Zenmervolt 's post about it and you'll understand the difference.

 

[ShamrockGT]

Seems your missing my point.

 

[ShamrockGT]

ABS in GT6 is SRF on the Brake Pedal lol.

ABS in GT6 Allows drivers to take corners artificially faster than with ABS off for a multitude of reasons. ABS prevent lock ups making braking hard and late into a corner astronomically easier and simpler (boring) and most of all makes Rookies feel like Pro's. Follow the driving line, wait for it to tell you when to brake if the gear shift indicator hasn't, let it tell you when to hit the gas and Presto a Star is Born.

 

[et_]

Following the driving line will make you like 30 seconds slower than me per lap, so no, not really.

ABS prevent lock ups making braking hard and late into a corner astronomically easier and simpler

And how is that different from an IRL ABS?

 

[Zenmervolt]

ABS in GT6 Allows drivers to take corners artificially faster than with ABS off for a multitude of reasons.

No, it doesn't.

All it does is make the process of rolling off the brakes as you feed in the steering input a little (at ABS 1) or a lot (at ABS 10) easier. It does not increase mid-corner or corner-exit speeds because you are not on the brakes at those times. It doesn't even increase corner-entry speeds above what is possible with ABS 0, it just makes it easier to modulate the brake roll-off as you feed in steering.

There is no "extra" grip above what is there with ABS 0. Full Stop.

 

[Zenmervolt]

How are they faster if not cornering faster?????????

Because they are able to modulate the braking better which means they brake harder in the straights before the corners. The speeds in the corners don't change. This is why ABS 1 is faster than ABS 10. ABS 10 takes away so much braking force that you're stuck braking early all the time. ABS 1 does little more than prevent the brakes from locking when you're in a straight line, so you don't lose the ability to brake hard as you would with ABS 10.

Cornering speed doesn't change.

In any case, I'm done dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight. You never changed your mind before, despite evidence, so I don't see why you would now.