Islam - What's your view on it?

[Johnnypenso]

In that case it's probably a good thing that a small proportion of nutters take religious texts entirely literally.

Seems most of them are congregated in one religion in particular and do a great deal of damage in the process. Try going into certain countries and tell them their book of faith is a fairy tale and see what happens.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Seems most of them are congregated in one religion in particular and do a great deal of damage in the process. Try going into certain countries and tell them their book of faith is a fairy tale and see what happens.

True, although Islaam isn't much better.

 

[xyloscissor]

Seems most of them are congregated in one religion in particular and do a great deal of damage in the process. Try going into certain countries and tell them their book of faith is a fairy tale and see what happens.

No one wants to hear that though right? There are ways of getting along and there are ways of fueling the fires. I'm not defending anyone or anything but I am defending common sense.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

No one wants to hear that though right? There are ways of getting along and there are ways of fueling the fires. I'm not defending anyone or anything but I am defending common sense.

Just....so long as we don't do a Pope and say that people who insult faith/parents can expect a punch

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30838667

True, although Islaam isn't much better.

 

[xyloscissor]

Just....so long as we don't do a Pope and say that people who insult faith/parents can expect a punch

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30838667

It is a hard thing, I learned a lesson from a father figure I picked up along the way of my life and he told me once. "Just because you are correct does not mean you have to say it". I carry that with me. There are other sayings as well that hold plenty of water most of which describe how to influence or persuade others towards a known truth.

None of it takes an in your face nanananana type of attitude.

What I believe is actually very very simple, I don't care what religion or lack of you might have, I don't care about your god, I don't care about any of that. What I do care about is that you do not trespass, so simple. I never asked to be born, I never signed any sort of contract upon arrival but I'm smart enough to realize if I want my life I have to respect everyone else's life.

So maybe not hard then.

 

[Scaff]

I'm not really familiar with the bible, but seeing you talk about Christianity in particular that would relate to the new testament, which isn't particularly violent nor does it state that the world has to be converted using any means possible?

That's the major difference I think.

Except when it does.

Cities that don't accept Jesus will suffer a fate worse than Sodom and Gomorrah.

You must put faith and Jesus before all, including family (and in doing so pit brother against brother and father against son, etc).

Violence was also fine for Jesus when he wanted people out of his dad's house.

All of which is before you get started on the books they removed, one of which called for death to all Jews and the utterly mental violence that is coming in revelations.

Cherry pick if you like, but the NT has been used to just as great a degree as a tool of conquest, conversion and subjugation as any other religious text.

 

[FoRiZon]

Seems most of them are congregated in one religion in particular and do a great deal of damage in the process. Try going into certain countries and tell them their book of faith is a fairy tale and see what happens.

Sure. I'll try to go deep south on America, tell them the Bible are bunch of fairytales, and see what happens.

 

[xyloscissor]

Sure. I'll try to go deep south on America, tell them the Bible are bunch of fairytales, and see what happens.

Please don't

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Sure. I'll try to go deep south on America, tell them the Bible are bunch of fairytales, and see what happens.

You may be in for a rough ride with some not so clued up locals, but ultimately the law of the land would protect you. This is the country that allowed a group to picket American servicemen's funerals and burn an American flag and Quran. If you wanted to you could burn the Bible there (although I would probably ask for police protection....)

Blasphemy laws map:

Taken from:

http://end-blasphemy-laws.org/

 

[xyloscissor]

That does not look right to me, am I missing something? I tried to search the site for U.S. and it kicked out every country but...

We protect against that sort of thing do we not?

OK, now it makes a bit more sense.

The last person to be jailed in the United States for blasphemy was Abner Kneeland in 1838

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_the_United_States

But who am I to judge people who want to make a fuss when there is none? lol

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

That does not look right to me, am I missing something? I tried to search the site for U.S. and it kicked out every country but...

We protect against that sort of thing do we not?

That's why you're in white

As for dark brown....well there seems to be a trend there, I can't quite put my finger on it

 

[xyloscissor]

It looks very misleading to me and as such I have to question your source.

In any event I know for a fact I can say right here from my dark brown location there is no god and jesus is a farce, I'll be waiting for the police to come but in the meantime...

I'll just enjoy a christmas beer and go ahead exercising all my other freedoms.

 

[mister dog]

Except when it does.

Cities that don't accept Jesus will suffer a fate worse than Sodom and Gomorrah.

You must put faith and Jesus before all, including family (and in doing so pit brother against brother and father against son, etc).

Violence was also fine for Jesus when he wanted people out of his dad's house.

All of which is before you get started on the books they removed, one of which called for death to all Jews and the utterly mental violence that is coming in revelations.

Cherry pick if you like, but the NT has been used to just as great a degree as a tool of conquest, conversion and subjugation as any other religious text.

Well if there was such a book (that called for death to all Jews), at least they had the sentiment to remove it.

It must surely be an inherent desire to follow 'the book' to the letter then that is causing most misery. Luckily it seems to me that the majority of Christians have outgrown the thought to put the bible in practice literally when it comes to those particular points.

Wahhabists and Salafists on the Islam side seem to want to impose it 100% at all costs, using any means possible as described above. Sadly they are a huge group already, and their influence is spreading year by year.

 

[xyloscissor]

@mister dog

I don't think I have 'outgrown' anything tbh, I know it is not your intention but to me that is an insult. No big deal there however 👍

Here is the deal, maybe some of us rationalize or maybe we correctly divide the word of truth, that distinction is up to you but I consider myself a dispensation type of guy and as such I cannot find anywhere in the entire book where it tells me to wage violence. It simply is not there for me. In fact, it tells me the exact opposite.

Let's see without drawing the whole thread off topic, two things; dispensation and I'll throw in a verse, 2nd Tim, 2'15 I believe sums it up. Of course there is so much up to interpretation I could very well use the exact same book to give myself vindication to murder if I so choose.

It's all up in the air but one thing I can say with all sincerity, I use the book for good, it makes my life happy. So what?

Oops forgot to mention, the bible teaches to always follow the law of man, not sure why that slipped my mind seeing as it's a biggin lol. The NT even says to pray for the leaders that god put in your service or some such.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

In other news, the "Islamisation" of Germany - a lot of hot air or a worrying sign of the future?

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9700/germany-islamization

 

[Scaff]

Well if there was such a book (that called for death to all Jews), at least they had the sentiment to remove it.

It must surely be an inherent desire to follow 'the book' to the letter then that is causing most misery. Luckily it seems to me that the majority of Christians have outgrown the thought to put the bible in practice literally when it comes to those particular points.

Wahhabists and Salafists on the Islam side seem to want to impose it 100% at all costs, using any means possible as described above. Sadly they are a huge group already, and their influence is spreading year by year.

Oh it very existed and was a part of the NT for around 500 years, it's removal kind of undermines the entire word of God idea, but that's a different topic.

Your comment that the majority of Christians have outgrown the fundamental idea also applies to the vast majority of Muslims as well. Wahhabi's account for 0.5% of Muslims and while certainly fundamental are not a large group at all, and to group all Salafists in such a manner is akin to attempting to group all Catholics for the actions of the IRA.

In other news, the "Islamisation" of Germany - a lot of hot air or a worrying sign of the future?

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9700/germany-islamization

It's a mixture of both, but given the source it's a long way from unbiased.

 

[mister dog]

Your comment that the majority of Christians have outgrown the fundamental idea also applies to the vast majority of Muslims as well. Wahhabi's account for 0.5% of Muslims and while certainly fundamental are not a large group at all, and to group all Salafists in such a manner is akin to attempting to group all Catholics for the actions of the IRA.

Are you saying that Salafism is a good thing here, and it's only the radical Salafists who pose a danger?
Also where do you get that 0,5% figure in relation to Wahhabism? That would amount to a total of 80 million.

Also:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

 

[xyloscissor]

Did fundamental just turn into radical?

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

There's a very good youtube video with a former interrogator for the CIA out now, with the contents summarised by this page of a website:

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/12/...ar-with-me-but-im-in-a-religious-war-with-you

“You may not be in a religious war with me, but I’m in a religious war with you,” recalled former CIA interrogator James Mitchell the views of al-Qaeda (AQ) mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM). Interviewed on December 6 at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) before an audience of about 70, Mitchell provided chilling, essential insight into the jihadist worldview currently threatening the globe.

He also has a book that's just been released

 

[xyloscissor]

Oh sure, let's start trusting the CIA? You jest, please tell me you jest.

 

[mister dog]

Did fundamental just turn into radical?

Fundamentalists aren't radical?

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Oh sure, let's start trusting the CIA? You jest, please tell me you jest.

You can read Ali Soufan's account too if you want another (sometimes contradictory) viewpoint?

 

[Scaff]

Are you saying that Salafism is a good thing here, and it's only the radical Salafists who pose a danger?
Also where do you get that 0,5% figure in relation to Wahhabism? That would amount to a total of 80 million.

Also:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

I don't think on balance that any religion is a good thing, but that's quite different from it being a danger.

Fundamentalists aren't radical?

The two are different, one can be fundamental without being a dangerous radical hell bent on murdering everyone.

Fundamental simply means a belief in the core ideology of a faith, etc. Plenty of people can be fundamental without taking it to radical extremes and that applies to all faiths.

It's massively oversimplification to conflate the two as if they were identical. I don't give two hoots about how fundamental anyone in terms of a belief, it's the ones who are willing to do more than talk about it that are a concern (and a number of them have been shown to lack an understanding of the fundamental basics of many faiths).

I think it's about time Four Lions was made compulsory viewing so that people would actually start to understand this rather simple but important set of distinctions.

 

[xyloscissor]

Fundamentalists aren't radical?

I'm fundamental, do I seem radical to you?

@DLR_Mysterion

sometimes I'm the one who jests I would not trust the CIA though to be serious it's very tedious gathering enough info to form a legit opinion to me. You find 20 on one scripted side and 10 on the other, then you dig a bit more and by the time you think you figured it out they parade out a new news headline to snatch your attention.

I think you know what I'm getting at, hope so at least 👍

 

[mister dog]

I'm fundamental, do I seem radical to you?

Fundamental as in believing everything that is written in the bible? Then yes:

 

[xyloscissor]

I've always known I'm radical, I just figured it was in a different sense, as in everything I have passion for in life I do to the extreme such as motor sport rock and roll, and a few other things. While I would say I have a passion for my god and I study that damn book like a 4 eyed nerd I've never thought of myself as a radical christian, I don't even know what that means tbh.

I do what I do and I live how I live, one thing is very true and that is my faith is of no threat to you and I don't teach others about my faith that I think will cause a threat to you either. Am I radical? yes, am I a radical crazed religious nutcase causing harm or potential harm to society? You tell me, I say...

no.

It seems to me there are some people who wish to convict one of a crime before a crime is committed just because, I don't like that much. I'll take the responsibility for my actions if and when I act against society.

 

[mister dog]

I never said you were dangerous, i find radical Islam dangerous.

Nowadays i'm not aware of any existing fundamentalist Christian group that is committing acts of terror or which has an agenda to dominate the world by force. That's the big difference between radical Christians and radical Muslims IMO.

 

[McLaren]

If a government wrote up it's rules of engagement, but it was too problematic for people to interpret the intended message, that government would no doubt re-write it, to a small or large extent. That's logical behaviour. Why should we have to swallow the line that Islam has no problems, when standards for clarity fall way below accepted logic, and self-correction is non-existent?

One would assume a government would do that, but I think there lies part of the issue.

As far as I've seen, many governments in Muslim countries rely quite a bit on Islam to create laws. As you said, if they want you to swallow the line that Islam has no problems, then they will in turn refuse to re-write the rules influenced by it. Coming from some countries that have religious councils that are only there to "correctly" decipher the Quran & advise the government accordingly, anyone proposing a law change could potentially be seen as going against a religious passage that led to it in the first place. And to those councils, what the Quran says, typically goes.

Basically, in that part of the world, some of those leaders take what the Quran says to heart too literally when making decisions. After all, a couple of those countries are the ones who opposed the UDHR & adopted the Cairo Dec. because it said the same thing except in accordance with Shariah Law.

 

[xyloscissor]

Ah. well we are a bit off topic I guess, oops.

There are radical Christians if that is the right label, I don't know, there are so called christians I would say.. they fight the abortion clinics and do some things against the government. To me there is no way they can call that in the name of my lord because my lord stands for all that is just, committing unjust acts goes against our god so they are just idiots using an excuse.

To go back to the thread at some point, I would love to see a muslim explain what we are speaking of here, I would not rip on anyone willing to step up because I would like to know how they say it works. Maybe it's the way I say my religion works or maybe they just leave a gap in there, not sure.

 

[Parker]

Sure. I'll try to go deep south on America, tell them the Bible are bunch of fairytales, and see what happens.

Sure, go ahead, ignorant people may insult you but it is highly unlikely that anyone would actually do harm to you. Christians aren't the ones killing people for insulting their book or religion.