Islam - What's your view on it?

  • Thread starter SalmanBH
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HenrySwanson
Forced abortions and forced contraceptive insertion in China:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...abortions-sexual-abuse-genocide-a9144721.html

Is it time to recognise this as a genocide (and if so, what can we do)?
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No, it is not time to do that, since these are only stories, anecdotes, based on personal experience.
@PocketZeven has reminded up that this is not acceptable as evidence.

PocketZeven
It is complicated, but most of these accusation come from whistleblowers. From my experience whistleblowers are not always reliable without real evidence. I dont count anecdotal expriences as evidence. Personally I would like to find out more about these camps, if they are as cruel as they are?

A few years ago I saw this docu about camps that treats gamingaddiction among the youth in China. A lot of the patients there seem to exaggerate their experience as cruel and violation of their rights. Although not comparable, I just want to point out the unreliable narrator again. That said they could have heavily edited or directed the material in the docu.

I was not referring to military or legal pressure. Boycots of chinese goods could be a good tool to pressure China.
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PocketZeven
My experience with uighurs in China is totally different. Without decent research and due diligence one should not point the finger too early. Dont get me wrong, if true there should be action taken.
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Did you go to Xinjiang?

Because that is where everything is happening, I don't see why they would care outside that region as they don't make up a large percentage of people anywhere else.
 
PocketZeven
My experience with uighurs in China is totally different.
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Anecdotal, but my sister was very good friends with a Uighur lad when she lived in China, they fell in love blah blah and she went to meet his family. After she left China (he couldn't, as a Uighur he wasn't allowed a passport) she kept in touch with him and his family until about 18 months ago when all return contact stopped. She doesn't know why all of the ten-or-so family members have gone quiet but she fears the worst.
 
mustafur
Did you go to Xinjiang?

Because that is where everything is happening, I don't see why they would care outside that region as they don't make up a large percentage of people anywhere else.
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I have, but back in 2001. Urumqi

HenrySwanson
Can you expand on this?
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In my time living in beijing I had many uighur friends. They is definately discrimination in the vane of them being poor and thieves, similar how some minorities are viewed in the west. But I met rich ones, students and working people. But like I said, perhaps it was a different time.
 
PocketZeven
I have, but back in 2001. Urumqi



In my time living in beijing I had many uighur friends. They is definately discrimination in the vane of them being poor and thieves, similar how some minorities are viewed in the west. But I met rich ones, students and working people. But like I said, perhaps it was a different time.
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Hmmm I don't know if that cancels out, or rather makes me doubt the accusations.
 
Dobermann92
"Religion of peace" strikes again:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...entenced-death-blasphemy-191221091139428.html
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This has more to day with culture then religion.

If uneducated/uncivil people in christian countries were to take the bible litterally it wouldnt change that much:
"Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death."

Leviticus 24:16

edit: added more specific description
 
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Dennisch
It's more cultural than religion, proceeds by quoting religious text as example.
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:banghead:
You misunderstood context. Doberman92 suggested that Islam is not a peacefull religion. I posted a bible quote to emphasize that the bible is just as violent as Islam. My conclusion is that its the people and their culture, not the religion you should point the finger to. Or better yet all religion in general.
 
PocketZeven
:banghead:
You misunderstood context. Doberman92 suggested that Islam is not a peacefull religion. I posted a bible quote to emphasize that the bible is just as violent as Islam. My conclusion is that its the people and their culture, not the religion you should point the finger to. Or better yet all religion in general.
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But culture there is dictated by religion. They didn't "choose" that culture, they are brainwashed by their parents by forcing them on religious dogma. In the west on the other hand the culture isn't changed, the people changed because of new philosophycal ideas. You could find a Bible literalist who would murder you for being an atheist if he had the power for sure, but they aren't in power and secular laws have some retentiveness. Mashing religion and laws together makes a bad system.
 
Dobermann92
But culture there is dictated by religion. They didn't "choose" that culture, they are brainwashed by their parents by forcing them on religious dogma. In the west on the other hand the culture isn't changed, the people changed because of new philosophycal ideas. You could find a Bible literalist who would murder you for being an atheist if he had the power for sure, but they aren't in power and secular laws have some retentiveness. Mashing religion and laws together makes a bad system.
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I think you underestimate how pervasive Christian morality still is with regards to "western" law.
 
Imari
I think you underestimate how pervasive Christian morality still is with regards to "western" law.
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It's not for want of trying either.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-press-for-death-penalty-for-homosexual-acts

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scott_Lively


That's not forgetting that a lot of the anti-homosexuality laws in former European colonies are a hold over from European laws.
 
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Dobermann92
But culture there is dictated by religion. They didn't "choose" that culture, they are brainwashed by their parents by forcing them on religious dogma. In the west on the other hand the culture isn't changed, the people changed because of new philosophycal ideas. You could find a Bible literalist who would murder you for being an atheist if he had the power for sure, but they aren't in power and secular laws have some retentiveness. Mashing religion and laws together makes a bad system.
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That what I was pointing out. I dont agree with the suggestion that islam is the cause of violence.
 
Imari
I think you underestimate how pervasive Christian morality still is with regards to "western" law.
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Morality has nothing to do with Christianity or Islam. We are moral beings despite some of us being religious.

PocketZeven
That what I was pointing out. I dont agree with the suggestion that islam is the cause of violence.
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If the culture is predominantly dictated by Islam, then it is, even if this means an indirect cause.
 
A Times investigation has found evidence of rampant radicalisation in UK jails:

Islamist extremists hold Sharia trials and groom young Muslims in British prisons

It also highlights the over-representation of Muslims in UK jails - Muslims make up 15% of the prison population yet are only 4.8% of the general population.

One article suggests that this is the fault of....you guessed it, Britain:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...a-rehabilitation-discrimination-a7937746.html

But that would mean these same biases are found in America (9% prison pop, 0.8% general) and France (40-50% prison pop estimate, 12% general) among others....

Personally I think conversion inside prisons accounts for a substantial amount (Buddhism for example is over-represented too) but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be time for difficult questions to be asked
 
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Dobermann92
We are moral beings despite some of us being religious.
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Except those whose actions have been deemed immoral by those who would have them bend to beliefs they may not possess, particularly if the actions that have been deemed immoral aren't so in their own minds. "Christian morality" is so pervasive that it shapes laws and and strips groups of basic rights, and it is wielded as a weapon against others rather than a guideline for one's own actions.

It's abundantly clear that you don't like Islam, but to don blinders when it is shown to you that Islam is not unique in the impact that you consider undesirable is pure ignorance.
 
The Taliban in Afghanistan are in a very robust position to consolidate power, and ISIS are rapidly reconstituting in Iraq. These are some of the most fervent and highly persistent military organizations in the world today. The US, lacking any known reason to keep taking losses with zero prospect of victory, is backing away from the fight. Our cause, however just or moral, appears tattered and lost. Blowback to the US and Europe in the form of terrorism and floods of refugees from violence and privation is a salutary lesson of faux pas in the Great Game we play. We have greatly underestimated the character and motivation of the indigenous peoples we sought to liberate - or maybe dominate.
 
TexRex
Except those whose actions have been deemed immoral by those who would have them bend to beliefs they may not possess, particularly if the actions that have been deemed immoral aren't so in their own minds. "Christian morality" is so pervasive that it shapes laws and and strips groups of basic rights, and it is wielded as a weapon against others rather than a guideline for one's own actions.

It's abundantly clear that you don't like Islam, but to don blinders when it is shown to you that Islam is not unique in the impact that you consider undesirable is pure ignorance.
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Christians use law to strip other people of basic rights and persecute them. How this fact makes the believers of Islam any less problematic?
You could always point me to that christianity does the same thing, which is true, but still irrelevant, because this topic is called Islam, what's your view on it, even if we agree that christianity is the worst religion of all time in the present (maybe, the recent death toll suggest otherwise), it wouldn't change a damn thing.
 
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Dobermann92
Christians use law to strip other people of basic rights and persecute them. How this fact makes the believers of Islam any less problematic?
You could always point me to that christianity does the same thing, which is true, but still irrelevant, because this topic is called Islam, what's your view on it, even if we agree that christianity is the worst religion of all time in the present (maybe, the recent death toll suggest otherwise), it wouldn't change a damn thing.
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It's more about applying the same standard to all faiths, something that is not often done.

As an example you talk about death toll, yet both sides have people who believe (as an example) that Afghanistan was a holy war (both Bush and Blair used God as justification), both sides had people on the ground who were doing it for God and country and both sides had people who fought because it was a job.

In every major faith on the planet you have those who use their faith for good and those who use their faith for bad, to label any faith utterly good or bad is simplistic to the point of removing any sound logic from the position.
 
Scaff
It's more about applying the same standard to all faiths, something that is not often done.

As an example you talk about death toll, yet both sides have people who believe (as an example) that Afghanistan was a holy war (both Bush and Blair used God as justification), both sides had people on the ground who were doing it for God and country and both sides had people who fought because it was a job.

In every major faith on the planet you have those who use their faith for good and those who use their faith for bad, to label any faith utterly good or bad is simplistic to the point of removing any sound logic from the position.
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All religions are bad, man made creations and the world would be better without any of them. They promote superstition which you cannot question, believers use God as an argument, they want to have power on you. I just pointing out which one is currently the most dangerous belief system when it comes to power (in Europe and in the Middle-East especially, I know that in the southern States protestants have way much power). Faith is nothing without it's teachings, faith is illogical, the definition of it is: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. "People do good things regardless of faith or religion, they do bad things because of religion" - just to quote Aron Ra, a prominent youtube atheist.
 
Dobermann92
All religions are bad, man made creations and the world would be better without any of them. They promote superstition which you cannot question, believers use God as an argument, they want to have power on you. I just pointing out which one is currently the most dangerous belief system when it comes to power (in Europe and in the Middle-East especially, I know that in the southern States protestants have way much power). Faith is nothing without it's teachings, faith is illogical, the definition of it is: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. "People do good things regardless of faith or religion, they do bad things because of religion" - just to quote Aron Ra, a prominent youtube atheist.
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You assert that Islam is to blame for heinous acts, but that's just daft. Every single person of the Islamic faith who does not commit heinous acts is reason to question this assertion, for if they commit no such acts in the name of Islam, the blame must be placed elsewhere.

Every single father who kills their child would not have committed this particular act--with this particular victim--if they weren't the child's father. It's impossible. So the logical conclusion is that fatherhood is the problem, no?

I say to you that individuals are the problem. Catholicism isn't to blame for priests who diddle little boys in the rectory and Christianity isn't to blame for people who murder doctors and nurses who aid in the termination of pregnancy when a woman chooses this.

Even "look over here at all the violence in an area where Islam is the primary religion" is the result of individuals permitting, or even mandating, heinous acts committed in the name of Islam.

Without individuals willing to commit heinous acts, religion does not accomplish this. Religion isn't to blame for individuals who would maim, molest and murder in the name of religion.
 
Dobermann92
All religions are bad, man made creations and the world would be better without any of them. They promote superstition which you cannot question, believers use God as an argument, they want to have power on you. I just pointing out which one is currently the most dangerous belief system when it comes to power (in Europe and in the Middle-East especially, I know that in the southern States protestants have way much power). Faith is nothing without it's teachings, faith is illogical, the definition of it is: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. "People do good things regardless of faith or religion, they do bad things because of religion" - just to quote Aron Ra, a prominent youtube atheist.
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Once again double standards come into play here.

First what defines a religious army and what defines killing in the name of that, does being a member of an army who swear allegence to the religious head of a state apply? What if the individual doesn't share that exact belief?

What about those that gave displaced millions of people, killed tens of thousands and tortured and maimed those that don't convert? As that's happened twice in the last few decades and the people doing it in both cases were not Muslim.
 
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TexRex
Without individuals willing to commit heinous acts, religion does not accomplish this. Religion isn't to blame for individuals who would maim, molest and murder in the name of religion.
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TexRex
Except those whose actions have been deemed immoral by those who would have them bend to beliefs they may not possess
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So when Pakistani academic is sentenced to death for blasphemy it's ok because individuals in Pakistan want it that way and any suggestion that it's wrong is cultural imperialism? Or what is your position on this?
 
novcze
So when Pakistani academic is sentenced to death for blasphemy it's ok because individuals in Pakistan want it that way and any suggestion that it's wrong is cultural imperialism? Or what is your position on this?
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Religion itself isn't responsible for it. People are. Specifically people who wish to maintain control over other people and do so by wielding belief as a weapon. Someone who threatens that control is struck down by the people who act in this manner to keep it.
 

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