Just made a 277 hp gallardo

[Da_Crazy_Driver]

Don't see why not. Keep in mind that extremely flat power curves is something that WRC cars already suffer from, so you may end up with a brick if you push it down any further.

its not, only taking off ~50 hp......but sweet, ill check it out

 

[chuyler1]

I used an '84 RS200 Ford from the UCD for the first Rally special event last week, it was perfect. 250HP stock but is basically a rally car. Added a few mods and was good to go. Haven't tried the other events yet though.

 

[Cicinho]

yea i see the perfomance points limit will have a big effect in balancing online races because its only a matter of time before some guy adds 200 kg to the fgt and lower its hp as far down to 400 lol

Because i was so scared to add that stage 3 kit to my stealth gt500 knowing that it will never get to 570 (lowest bhp) and i cant get another gt500

i say +1 to just add and remove engine stages

Its already been done. Was online today and some gimp lowered his FGT down to 400 to fit into a 404bhp race. I was confused how he done it but now i know.

 

[Fleaver]

Don't see why not. Keep in mind that extremely flat power curves is something that WRC cars already suffer from, so you may end up with a brick if you push it down any further.

I'm confused. Isn't a flat power band ideal?

Look at the extreme opposite, the Suzuki Escudo (or a highly tuned VTEC). The powerband even looks like Pike's Peak. In one second, your motor is struggling to breathe. The next, all four wheels are spinning widely out of control. With a flat powerband (i.e. a rally car), the engine is always predictable, always near it's maximum potential.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[zk523]

Not completely true. Several high-output engines, such as those found in the Ford F6 Typhoon and mercedes Benz SL AMG luxury land-boats have a torque curve very similar to those that you get with the hp limiter.

The F6, for instance, would get to about 560Nm at 2,500rpm and just sit between 560 and 565Nm for the next few thousand rpm.

The Mercs do this:

That torque curve looks abnormally flat...thats how i imagined my car to be (based on reviews) but the dyno shows differently (though close). This is not my car but its the same model:

I spent some time last night making my 330i into my exact 335i using the mods, ballast and power limiter. While it may work for a car like mine with a relatively flat torque band, it is going to be unrealistic for other cars that peak. Unless im mistaken (and i mentioned this earlier), the torque stays the same while the horsepower decreases. I dont know all that much about restrictor plates, but it doesnt sound realistic to me. Shouldnt the torque decrease as well, since the engine is having a harder time breathing? Or is that not how it works in real life?

 

[aga080]

just another stupid move by PD

 

[TBR 427]

That torque curve looks abnormally flat...thats how i imagined my car to be (based on reviews) but the dyno shows differently (though close). This is not my car but its the same model:

I spent some time last night making my 330i into my exact 335i using the mods, ballast and power limiter. While it may work for a car like mine with a relatively flat torque band, it is going to be unrealistic for other cars that peak. Unless im mistaken (and i mentioned this earlier), the torque stays the same while the horsepower decreases. I dont know all that much about restrictor plates, but it doesnt sound realistic to me. Shouldnt the torque decrease as well, since the engine is having a harder time breathing? Or is that not how it works in real life?

That's the thing; Mercedes had a reason to program their ECU to do that. Therefore, it is possible for an ECU (not every ECU, which is just a limitation on the game's part) to do that.

In real life I suspect it would be harder for some cars to manage a flat curve like that. Things like Ladas, for instance, would have a problem. So would turbocharged cars, with their specific power delivery traits (though the F6 Falcon is proof it isn't impossible).

It's all down to manufacturer intent and ability.

 

[DreamersParady]

I think it is the single best addition ever made to the series. Seriously.

Agreed, means you can get a car Exactly within the PP limit you need.

 

[zk523]

That's the thing; Mercedes had a reason to program their ECU to do that. Therefore, it is possible for an ECU (not every ECU, which is just a limitation on the game's part) to do that.

In real life I suspect it would be harder for some cars to manage a flat curve like that. Things like Ladas, for instance, would have a problem. So would turbocharged cars, with their specific power delivery traits (though the F6 Falcon is proof it isn't impossible).

It's all down to manufacturer intent and ability.

The 335i is twin turbo...I was just commenting on the fact that the graph posted looks like something a manufacturer would put out and not the actual dyno of the car. I'm sure the band is pretty flat in real life, but the dyno would show some sort of inconsistency across the powerband, however slight. At least I'm guessing it would...unless engine management is that precise nowadays. Then again, maybe it is that flat. Here is some random dyno I found online just before I was going to post:

That looks pretty damn smooth to me, but it looks like a supercharger not turbo so its not really apples to apples.

 

[Uxi]

I would have expected the HP limits to have less fine grain detail (semi-random in 3-7% increments or that sort of thing) like restrictors. But not really complaining. Think this is great.

 

[TBR 427]

These come off a single turbo Falcon (Australian sedan)

 

[nasanu]

PP has been working great in the races I have had. There has been a mix of road and race cars and they have all been quite even with the road cars having the straight line speed advantage to make up for the downforce of the race cars.

Of course if you are an idiot and set a 404hp limit with no PP or weight restrictions...

 

[Tornado]

I'm confused. Isn't a flat power band ideal

A flat torque curve is ideal. A flat horsepower curve is a different animal entirely, because if the horsepower is staying the same throughout the rev range it means that the torque is dropping of rapidly. A car with a flat horsepower curve in the upper revs will have a hard time revving through those upper revs because of the rapid drop in torque.

 

[shirakawaa]

A flat torque curve is ideal. A flat horsepower curve is a different animal entirely, because if the horsepower is staying the same throughout the rev range it means that the torque is dropping of rapidly. A car with a flat horsepower curve in the upper revs will have a hard time revving through those upper revs because of the rapid drop in torque.

No. This is a common misconception.
A flat torque curve has only three advantages:
- It's the ideal best that can usually be obtained from a naturally aspirated engine assuming that volumetric efficiency (torque) remains always the same at every rpm
- It offers a consistent engine response throughout its operating range, which is often important in sports driving (although not always the best thing especially in no-compromise situations like motorsports racing)
- In real life having a huge torque peak at lower rpm usually means heavier internals to withstand the load stresses and severe tire consumption, decreasing performance

An engine with a flat power curve and the same peak power than another one with a flat torque curve will simply have more torque everywhere (as torque at a given rpm is directly proportional at the power developed there), and therefore, even if it will decrease as rpm rise, it will be greater and therefore faster anyway, because more power in average will be developed upon acceleration.

 

[Fleaver]

I dont know all that much about restrictor plates, but it doesnt sound realistic to me. Shouldnt the torque decrease as well, since the engine is having a harder time breathing? Or is that not how it works in real life?

The torque does decrease, but only in the RPMs that the hp is restricted. Experiment with some really torque-y engines and you'll see what I mean.

 

[nickg07]

Its already been done. Was online today and some gimp lowered his FGT down to 400 to fit into a 404bhp race. I was confused how he done it but now i know.

Thats why the organiser should always set a minimum weight?

set it at over 1200 and no FGT will get close... its pretty simple really.

Did people not use the weight min setting before the patch?!

 

[Tornado]

An engine with a flat power curve and the same peak power than another one with a flat torque curve will simply have more torque everywhere (as torque at a given rpm is directly proportional at the power developed there), and therefore, even if it will decrease as rpm rise, it will be greater and therefore faster anyway, because more power in average will be developed upon acceleration.

I'm pretty sure that you either misunderstood what I said or I am misunderstanding what you are saying, because that makes no sense.

 

[Jason_B]

Formula 3000 or GP2 FGTs? Hell yeah!

Brilliant!!!

 

[ZR1fan]

hmmm, max ballast and 50% restricted untuned 2CV race anyone?

Nah try the Fiat 500 with that! 8 horsepower and all the acceleration of.. Well... I dont know if it would even move...

 

[shirakawaa]

I'm pretty sure that you either misunderstood what I said or I am misunderstanding what you are saying, because that makes no sense.

Which engine has more power in average?
The one in orange with an overall flat torque curve or the one in blue with an overall flat power curve?

The blue case is actually very similar to what typically happens when using the power limiter on a big powerful engine in GT5. It would eat engines that reach peak power on at a given rpm (rather than on a relatively flat spot) for breakfast, because it would develop more power on average.

 

[chuyler1]

Absolutely. The area under the curve is just as important as the peak.

 

[fasternfaster]

Which engine has more power in average?
The one in orange with an overall flat torque curve or the one in blue with an overall flat power curve?

The blue case is actually very similar to what typically happens when using the power limiter on a big powerful engine in GT5. It would eat engines that reach peak power on at a given rpm (rather than on a relatively flat spot) for breakfast, because it would develop more power on average.

THIS is the reason why i think this change is a bunch of CRAP! I understand restricting power by 10% when you have no more parts that you can take off, but using it this way to gain advantage in low rpm HP is why i think its a bunch of crap. Because of this all HP restricted races would be dominated by restricted race cars.

What do you think is better a 380 HP RX-7 with a full tune up or a 380hp JGTC Nissan GT-R that has more down force and better traction?

It seems to me that the JGTC car would wipe the floor with the RX-7 road car.

Although there are merits to using this to create a 400hp formula 1 car so you can pretend that its a GP2 car or whatever.. but in all other respects it makes online racing worse.

 

[Tornado]

Which engine has more power in average?
The one in orange with an overall flat torque curve or the one in blue with an overall flat power curve?

The blue case is actually very similar to what typically happens when using the power limiter on a big powerful engine in GT5. It would eat engines that reach peak power on at a given rpm (rather than on a relatively flat spot) for breakfast, because it would develop more power on average.

Oh, you meant like that. I was talking in regards to PP.

 

[chuyler1]

I have seen exactly this happen last night. I had a room set up with 300hp and 900kg limits. Perfect for the car I was racing...Until someone showed up with Integra Type R race-mod. Stock the Integra only has 239hp but it could pull away from my car like it was standing still on the uphill portions of trial mountian, most likely because he had other mods and detuned it. No suspension tweaks on my car were going to improve my times by 5-10 seconds per lap. So now I have to specify street cars only, no RM to keep things fair with my other lobby guests.

 

[Tommy_861]

I have seen exactly this happen last night. I had a room set up with 300hp and 900kg limits. Perfect for the car I was racing...Until someone showed up with Integra Type R race-mod. Stock the Integra only has 239hp but it could pull away from my car like it was standing still on the uphill portions of trial mountian, most likely because he had other mods and detuned it. No suspension tweaks on my car were going to improve my times by 5-10 seconds per lap. So now I have to specify street cars only, no RM to keep things fair with my other lobby guests.

We do that all the time, theres plenty of race cars that fit in regs that heavily modded street cars fit into (like the guys who show up all the time in Elise RMs and SWEAR they are street cars as they shellac everyone). Needless to say this was always a problem.

 

[Abscissa081]

I hate hate hate this feature. Just drag raced a 502HP TVR Speed 12...because of the limiter. X1s with 600hp, FGTs with like 450.

 

[chuyler1]

I'm seeing a lot of rooms switch over to performance points now. It tends to handicap people that are overusing the power reduction option. If you are trying to drop PP on your car you can end up with more hp if you remove bolt-on mods vs dragging the power reduction slider. Torque is important too, so a mix of the two might be best...but without hp, your car will be a dog on the straights.

Honestly I really wish there were more ways to set car restrictions for lobbies. I hate having to write "street cars only" in the title and then monitor the cars and kick people. Check boxes to allow/disallow race cars and "RM" cars would be great.

 

[RWB1213]

Honestly I really wish there were more ways to set car restrictions for lobbies. I hate having to write "street cars only" in the title and then monitor the cars and kick people. Check boxes to allow/disallow race cars and "RM" cars would be great.

Completely agree. GT5 needs more lobby configuration options. PD should have modelled their online lobby options off of Forza 3. Forza 3 got the lobby options right, and then shot their fans in the face by eliminating public lobbies.

I like the addition of PP, power limiting and the weight/ballast options. While they may reach a bit far (50% reduction in power?) they offer another way in which to balance a lobby. From my perspective the power reduction option is practically required when considering that your new engine increases in hp (modelled break-in) and decreases as the oil ages. With hp changing on it's own in both direction, it's difficult to build a car to a race spec (350hp for instance) and keep it there. This is precisely the issue I ran into with a race series I'm running with some friends . . . built a car to 350hp, run one race, and the car no longer meets spec. Now you can take a bit of power away without removing whole parts.

I haven't played with the PP, does tire selection calculate into the value? Kinda stupid if it doesn't.

 

[chuyler1]

I'm not sure whether tires calculate in. I think they do but I could be wrong. Regardless, trying to race in a room where drivers have mixed tires is a recipe for disaster. Brake zones are so different that people would be ramming each other left and right. Unless there is a tire restriction, you're best off sticking with racing soft tires and tuning your car accordingly. Racing hard/medium might be useful for long races (ie nascar) but for short runs you'll need the extra grip.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I feel to bump this, PD still need to address this issue. Happy to compromise at a 10% power limit as well as a 10% ballast limit.