Let's revisit counter-steering assist

[TenderLoins]

If TCS doesn't make you faster, once again, PD's physics and handling models need work. Because in the real life series they ARE allowed in, everybody uses them. I'm guessing they don't use them because they make you slower, right? LOL

In the game they do slow you down. Yes the physics model needs a lot of work. Nobody is arguing that the physics model is accurate to real life.

Unfortunately this is a video game and not reality. I’m guessing if they made you faster in game, the top players would be using them. Curiously they don’t.

 

[simsimsheree]

So perhaps the emphasis should be on trying to get PD to spend a little less time on eye candy, and a bit more on tire and handling models, rather than all this angst about aids that only mitigate the poor physics package..?

Personally, I have a feeling that the top players actually have some pride as the main reason they don't use them. Their fellow racers would be a lot more unforgiving than most of the members on this thread!

 

[TenderLoins]

So perhaps the emphasis should be on trying to get PD to spend a little less time on eye candy, and a bit more on tire and handling models, rather than all this angst about aids that only mitigate the poor physics package..?

Couldn’t agree more.

Personally, I have a feeling that the top players actually have some pride as the main reason they don't use them. Their fellow racers would be a lot more unforgiving than most of the members on this thread!

Pride has nothing to do with it. TCS and ASM make you slower.

CSA helps DS4 users with counter steering but it also ads understeer on corner entry. On a wheel it just feels weird to me.

They don’t use assists because it doesn’t help them.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Personally, I have a feeling that the top players actually have some pride as the main reason they don't use them. Their fellow racers would be a lot more unforgiving than most of the members on this thread!

Quite a lot of top players will use CSA and occasionally TC1 if it’s useful and most of us don’t really care too much who’s using what.

 

[F4H Rosso]

Quite a lot of top players will use CSA and occasionally TC1 if it’s useful and most of us don’t really care too much who’s using what.

One thing I'd add to this is that the top players are far more comfortable with who is quick/isn't quick and know it isn't to do with whatever assists you choose to use. The people that are usually vocal about assists are the people that are looking for an excuse as to why they're not where they want to be.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

One thing I'd add to this is that the top players are far more comfortable with who is quick/isn't quick and know it isn't to do with whatever assists you choose to use. The people that are usually vocal about assists are the people that are looking for an excuse as to why they're not where they want to be.

I cannot stress this enough. While the top players usually agree that CSA should be banned*, they don't mind anyone else using it and they understand why it's being used. People who want to be at the top but can't be are the ones who actively complain about people who use CSA

*Based on what I read on this forum

 

[tofuhero]

I think there's two kinds of people that race in Sport mode -- those whose focus is on winning, and those whose focus is on improving their driving skills and racecraft. There's some overlap between those priorities, but IMO the people who focus on winning by any means necessary are the ones using Strong CSA. I say this because Strong CSA reduces the opportunity to improve your skills by taking some of those driving decisions away from you, so becoming a better driver has to be a secondary concern for them. But this split focus of priorities is probably why we keep arguing about CSA and other assists. Some see it as a means to an end, while others see it as an impediment to their own end (and some of those feel it's a unfair shortcut that bypasses earning speed the hard way).

I personally use Weak CSA, but only on MR Gr.3 cars like the Ferrari that have a tendency to easily spin when tires start wearing. It basically removes some of that negative and makes it more competitive with other Gr.3 cars that don't suffer this issue. If they fixed the tire model I probably wouldn't use CSA at all.

 

[sabamber]

In real life, when my car starts to go sideways, I know about it because my steering wheel starts to naturally countersteer (due to caster) which gives me fair warning to take action and correct the slide.

I use a DS4 with GT sport, I get zero feedback when a slide is developing therefore catching it in time is difficult.

So because of this I use CSA when I race online, if I were to use a wheel and found that the game simulated caster correctly I imagine the CSA would go off.

 

[kjeldsen]

Exactly.


I hate to break it to you but TCS and ASM both slow you down. If they made you faster the top guys would all be using them.

I use ABS only in GR4, ABS and CSA in GR3 and will never compete with the top drivers. Nobody is winning Championships because they have an aid switched on. All the so called purists need to get over themselves and just play the ****ing game.

It seems like you didn't read that much of this thread, understandable it is getting a bit long, or as you would put it ****ing long.
So let me just start by pointing out that the first post in the thread points out that CSA "seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region" while it's not TCS or ASM it is still an aid, or in your words a ****ing aid.

And i hate to break this to you, i am not the faster guys, i am among the slow guys, or as you would put it ****ing slow. That means i compete with other slow players. And there is no ****ing doubt that CSA/ASM/TCS/ABS/****ing helps in that category. Not necessarily for me but it does make players with less practice artificially faster. My wording in the post you quote wasn't spot on, a better choice would have been "would they even be on the same track", which i doubt.

 

[Klaidheamhmor]

I’ve only had the game for about 5 days now but have so far been driving with RSS tires, TCS on default at 3, CSA on weak and ABS on weak. I use M/T with a DS4.

I’m most familiar with Tokyo Expressway because I like that course, so using the Viper GT3-R and the 911 RSR, I did a test.

With the above setup, I was able to put up a 1:15 and some change. With them off (RM tires, TCS on 0, CSA off, ABS on weak), my lap times went to 1:16. So, a big difference but not one I think I couldn’t overcome with more practice without the assists on. I honestly didn’t notice a huge difference except in a few spots where I could feel the ass of the car about to swing out a bit.

What kind of tires do you guys normally use when doing time trials? For endurance races I’m guessing most people probably go with RH tires for durability, but I was curious what you use when playing normally or doing daily races and time trials.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It seems like you didn't read that much of this thread, understandable it is getting a bit long, or as you would put it ****ing long.
So let me just start by pointing out that the first post in the thread points out that CSA "seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region" while it's not TCS or ASM it is still an aid, or in your words a ****ing aid.

And i hate to break this to you, i am not the faster guys, i am among the slow guys, or as you would put it ****ing slow. That means i compete with other slow players. And there is no ****ing doubt that CSA/ASM/TCS/ABS/****ing helps in that category. Not necessarily for me but it does make players with less practice artificially faster. My wording in the post you quote wasn't spot on, a better choice would have been "would they even be on the same track", which i doubt.

What it does is allow for is (let's call it less skilled/experienced) drivers to complete the race with less time consuming errors.
It doesn't make people "artificially faster".
At least not in pure lap time speed.
That speed is determined by a clean lap, granted the clean lap may be influenced at times from additional aids, but it is errors that ultimately make the difference in a race.
And generally, the difference between a "****ing slow" driver and what could be deemed as a fast driver, is the amount of errors in a race.

This may seem pedantic, but it is worth noting the difference.
Because it is a significant difference, and it seems some get confused between the two.

*Edit*
The end game is completing the race in the fastest possible time.
I've mentioned this before, even regarding mathematical differences in pit strategy.
But time consuming errors obviously play an even bigger role.
Completing the race with no errors is the ultimate goal.
If that means driving at 7/8ths pace, so be it.
Keep it on the black stuff, pointing in the right direction.
You will get home faster doing this than spending 15 seconds every third lap recovering from an off-track error.
Using something like CSA regarding grid position is negligible in this scenario.
It's there to help you reduce the off-track excursions.
Not to help in pure lap times.

 

[kjeldsen]

What it does is allow for is (let's call it less skilled/experienced) drivers to complete the race with less time consuming errors.
It doesn't make people "artificially faster".
At least not in pure lap time speed.
That speed is determined by a clean lap, granted the clean lap may be influenced at times from additional aids, but it is errors that ultimately make the difference in a race.
And generally, the difference between a "****ing slow" driver and what could be deemed as a fast driver, is the amount of errors in a race.

This may seem pedantic, but it is worth noting the difference.
Because it is a significant difference, and it seems some get confused between the two.

*Edit*
The end game is completing the race in the fastest possible time.
I've mentioned this before, even regarding mathematical differences in pit strategy.
But time consuming errors obviously play an even bigger role.
Completing the race with no errors is the ultimate goal.
If that means driving at 7/8ths pace, so be it.
Keep it on the black stuff, pointing in the right direction.
You will get home faster doing this than spending 15 seconds every third lap recovering from an off-track error.
Using something like CSA regarding grid position is negligible in this scenario.
It's there to help you reduce the off-track excursions.
Not to help in pure lap times.

The first post in this thread claims that CSA is used for "competitive lap times on the leaderboards", so there is that when it comes to pure lap times.

Then we have my claim that aids helps inexperienced drivers get faster in the slow bracket and as a result push them into races they would not be in without. Both for Q laps and in a race. And in my Willow RACE C example CSA/ASM helps even more when the tires go away. As you say, consistency is the key and aids can be a shortcut to that.
My suggestion is that we nerf cars slightly when aids are enabled, still making it fun for inexperienced drivers to race but making it worthwhile to pursuit driving without aids, the bonus is that there is no discussion about who is a "real racing driver" and who is not.

 

[TamasToth]

Just a little addition to this topic: I made some laps on Bathurst. I enjoyed it, but I know I'm very slow on the top tricky session. Wondered how others are going there, went out to see a replay from the fast ones. Started one, forwarded to the session in question. "Wow, that was fast" - said my son (14) watching with me. Replayed with the dash view and realized the red steering assist blinking. "OK, let's see another" - he said. Picked another from top 10. Switched to dash, all assists blinking red. My son was laughing and said: "not even worth watching a second more".
I myself was curious how to drive that part better, not how some advanced algorithms can make the car thru the tricky part faster. What was interesting for me, that a 14 y. o. was not amused by that fast driving.
People are different. Luckily.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Just a little addition to this topic: I made some laps on Bathurst. I enjoyed it, but I know I'm very slow on the top tricky session. Wondered how others are going there, went out to see a replay from the fast ones. Started one, forwarded to the session in question. "Wow, that was fast" - said my son (14) watching with me. Replayed with the dash view and realized the red steering assist blinking. "OK, let's see another" - he said. Picked another from top 10. Switched to dash, all assists blinking red. My son was laughing and said: "not even worth watching a second more".
I myself was curious how to drive that part better, not how some advanced algorithms can make the car thru the tricky part faster. What was interesting for me, that a 14 y. o. was not amused by that fast driving.
People are different. Luckily.

Are you talking about the FIA manufacturers cup race that's on today? If you are you might want to go and have another look as the top 2 times are not using CSA (I assume your profile is correct and you are from Hungary so will see European leaderboards). Ironically the only top driver to have set a time using CSA is 3rd out of the 3 that have set a lap so far and 0.6 seconds off the best.

Oh and here's another Gr.4 Bathurst lap not using CSA, in fact I don't think I've seen a faster time by anyone using CSA and you would think Bathurst would be the track where CSA helps more than most.

 

[TenderLoins]

It seems like you didn't read that much of this thread, understandable it is getting a bit long, or as you would put it ****ing long.
So let me just start by pointing out that the first post in the thread points out that CSA "seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region" while it's not TCS or ASM it is still an aid, or in your words a ****ing aid.

And i hate to break this to you, i am not the faster guys, i am among the slow guys, or as you would put it ****ing slow. That means i compete with other slow players. And there is no ****ing doubt that CSA/ASM/TCS/ABS/****ing helps in that category. Not necessarily for me but it does make players with less practice artificially faster. My wording in the post you quote wasn't spot on, a better choice would have been "would they even be on the same track", which i doubt.

I read the entire thread including the first post which I understood without your explanation. I also believe I used ****ing once, not as an adjective for every noun I typed.

Someone else summed it up really well. Most of the people complaining about aids are the ones who want to be at the top but can’t get there so they blame it on anything but their own lack of skill.

You said it yourself that you race with slower drivers anyway. So turn on the aids and you should instantly make it to A/S or S/S and compete with the top guys.

 

[TamasToth]

you might want to go and have another look

Maybe I was not clear:
1) I picked randomly from top10, 2 times.
2) top 10 list can change eventually.
3) I'm very far from spending my time to investigate who is or who not - I don't care that much. Just shared an affair regarding the topic.

Anyway, thanks for the video, will watch it.

 

[phil_75]

That’s because it’s a game and the majority of people don’t want to have to put lots of work in just to be able to drive the cars.

And then they never will get better because they use the crutch.
Assetto Corsa and Project Cars are far harder to control than GTSport.
Should Bloodborne have a mode with a force field so you can't get hit?

Im not great at FIFA so should i be able to activate stick to my feet ball online?

How about having a option in Street Fighter where i can just press one button to do the most complicated moves?

Im not even bothered about most people using CSA, i just think if you want to be S rank, the elite, then you should be able to race without the CPU helping.
Ban in S rank.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

And then they never will get better because they use the crutch.
Assetto Corsa and Project Cars are far harder to control than GTSport.
Should Bloodborne have a mode with a force field so you can't get hit?

Im not great at FIFA so should i be able to activate stick to my feet ball online?

How about having a option in Street Fighter where i can just press one button to do the most complicated moves?

Im not even bothered about most people using CSA, i just think if you want to be S rank, the elite, then you should be able to race without the CPU helping.
Ban in S rank.

You present analogies as to what CSA does to a player in terms of artificially boosting their skill level, but then you suggest that you ban CSA only in S rank? Isn't that the exact opposite of what you want to make us realize with your analogies?
And I don't know, go race with the top dogs if you can. I'm sure they'll find a way to extend their gap from you from 5 seconds to 10 if you give them enough time, CSA or otherwise.

 

[kalakanto]

I'm not carying who uses which helps or not but as my not so good skills I'm much faster with CSA. It's sad because GTS steering and car behaivior feels already too boring and without nyances and when using aids it makes it even more. But if I want to keep SS i got to use atleast sometimes CSA.

 

[Spurgy 777]

And then they never will get better because they use the crutch.

Completely wrong, CSA doesn't drive the car for you, just makes it slightly less likely that you will spin out. The vast majority of the driving is still down to the skill of the player so any player can still improve massively even if they are using driving aids. You could argue they might not improve as quickly, but to say they will never get better is clearly false.

More importantly though, who says everyone plays the game to improve? Why can't people just jump on to have fun without taking it that seriously?

Assetto Corsa and Project Cars are far harder to control than GTSport.

And I know which game I'd place a bet on having the highest sales figures with it being the most accessible and user friendly.

Should Bloodborne have a mode with a force field so you can't get hit?

Im not great at FIFA so should i be able to activate stick to my feet ball online?

How about having a option in Street Fighter where i can just press one button to do the most complicated moves?

None of these are remotely comparable to CSA.

Im not even bothered about most people using CSA, i just think if you want to be S rank, the elite, then you should be able to race without the CPU helping.
Ban in S rank.

And as @Alpha Cipher pointed out, banning it for S ranks makes no sense considering everything you've said above. Why do you only want to ban it for the people that need to improve the least, if people not improving themselves seems to be your main concern? Surely if you think people should improve their driving and not use driving aids then it S ranks are the last people you should be banning it for.

 

[Voodoovaj]

If TCS doesn't make you faster, once again, PD's physics and handling models need work. Because in the real life series they ARE allowed in, everybody uses them. I'm guessing they don't use them because they make you slower, right? LOL

Once again, the TCS that is accessible in the game IS NOT the same as TCS in real life.

The game has a traction control that works behind the scenes. It was mentioned in the one of the updates. This behind the scenes TCS is more akin to real life TCS.

The TCS that is accessible in game is purely a player aid, and as such, it slows you down.

 

[Jumbone1]

I find CSA effectiveness varies from car to car. The other day there was daily race with the Alfa 4C road car at a varient of lago maggiore.

Without CSA and only ABS the car had lift off oversteer which was difficult to control on a pad, but not impossible. This made getting a complete lap together tough. My best lap was 2.5sec off no1 time.

I then turned on CSA, the car now responded like a generic 4*4 front engined car, not a mid engined rwd light weight sports car. I now didn't have to worry about managing lift off oversteer by coming off the brakes smoothly and keeping a little throttle on to balance things. CSA was taking care of all of this for me, if anything it now felt like understeer. Within 3 laps I was 0.7 a lap faster!

Will I keep running CSA on cars with aggressive turn in/oversteer? No, because it takes the fun away and alters the individual handling of the car too much.

 

[John Crellin]

You guys act like when CSA is on you don't have to countersteer. IDK much about CSA strong but when I use CSA weak you still have to countersteer. For me it just helps keep me from over correcting the tiny little countersteers that happen on the edge of the track or when going over a large bump. Anything big and youre on your own. It doesn't even matter all that much. I turn it off all the time and it's fine, I'm no slower. I just don't have any force feedback in my controller so it helps smooth out my driving, and hitting curbs is still disruptive and still causes me to spin out even when CSA is active.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

You guys act like when CSA is on you don't have to countersteer. IDK much about CSA strong but when I use CSA weak you still have to countersteer. For me it just helps keep me from over correcting the tiny little countersteers that happen on the edge of the track or when going over a large bump. Anything big and youre on your own. It doesn't even matter all that much. I turn it off all the time and it's fine, I'm no slower. I just don't have any force feedback in my controller so it helps smooth out my driving, and hitting curbs is still disruptive and still causes me to spin out even when CSA is active.

A prime example of CSA being used at its full potential is the left-right chicance at Kyoto Yamagiwa. Those chicanes can be cut big time if you keep your outside wheels at the curbs and you inside wheels at the grass. Some aliens can pull this off without CSA, but my personal experience is that I need CSA to pull the same trick. Without CSA I can still cut those chicances, but it would unsettle the car so bad that I'd rather just take it normally because of the time lost recovering. My prime statement about CSA is that it doesn't eliminate the need for countersteer, but it enables you to take much more agressive lines that would normally be very hard to do without CSA. At race pace you may not want those more aggressive lines, but the increased stability means better consistency which is a central aspect of winning a race

 

[Brzlav]

A prime example of CSA being used at its full potential is the left-right chicance at Kyoto Yamagiwa. Those chicanes can be cut big time if you keep your outside wheels at the curbs and you inside wheels at the grass. Some aliens can pull this off without CSA, but my personal experience is that I need CSA to pull the same trick. Without CSA I can still cut those chicances, but it would unsettle the car so bad that I'd rather just take it normally because of the time lost recovering. My prime statement about CSA is that it doesn't eliminate the need for countersteer, but it enables you to take much more agressive lines that would normally be very hard to do without CSA. At race pace you may not want those more aggressive lines, but the increased stability means better consistency which is a central aspect of winning a race

Well great...
As bad as the T4 cut at Laggo Magiore is, it is at least still on the pavement. At Kyoto, you need to be a Rallye driver.
The track limits at Kyoto are a good example that there are things that you could make more "realistic" in this game without sacrificing accessibility.

 

[NotThirdReich]

There have been many debates on this topic so this time I'll just leave this picture here.

This is the fastest vehicle in Gran Turismo Sport.

 

[adstomko]

Echoing what @Spurgy 777 and @F4H Rosso said, it doesn't bother me who uses it or not.
At the moment, I feel more comfortable using the T300 with CSA on, which suits my driving style. CSA reminds me of the wheel turn settings, i.e. 270 degrees.
There's not really an advantage gained from it.

Question for anyone switching between CSA on and off, what FFB settings do you have for each? (state the wheel too please).
Might eventually try out races without using CSA

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Echoing what @Spurgy 777 and @F4H Rosso said, it doesn't bother me who uses it or not.
At the moment, I feel more comfortable using the T300 with CSA on, which suits my driving style.

Question for anyone switching between CSA on and off, what FFB settings do you have for each? (state the wheel too please).
Might eventually try out races without using CSA

I have the same wheel settings (G29, 10, 10) both with and without CSA

 

[Spurgy 777]

Echoing what @Spurgy 777 and @F4H Rosso said, it doesn't bother me who uses it or not.
At the moment, I feel more comfortable using the T300 with CSA on, which suits my driving style.

Question for anyone switching between CSA on and off, what FFB settings do you have for each? (state the wheel too please).
Might eventually try out races without using CSA

I think my FFB settings are at 2 using a T500RS and I leave it at that all the time.

 

[simsimsheree]

Quite a lot of top players will use CSA and occasionally TC1 if it’s useful and most of us don’t really care too much who’s using what.

This tends to run counter to the opinion that CSA and TC make you slower.

So, here we have it... No consensus whatsoever. Personally, I don't give a rats one way or the other. Some apparently do, but I would probably say, if you are looking for a close to true sim experience you are playing the wrong game anyway (if it's GTS).

If you want to play a game, play GTS, accept that people will use every game aid that makes them faster whether a pure game fiction (CSA) or a very poor implementation of a real life aid (TCS ASM). Have fun bumping people off track, brake checking trailing cars, going four off without consistent consequence, cross pit lane lines without a warning, and all the other differences between real racing and GTS.

If you want to simulate real life, play iRacing, AC, PC2 (or other even more hardcore sims) and you will never have this debate..!

There are times when I wonder if the people complaining GTS isn't realistic enough have ever even PLAYED the more hardcore sims.