Let's revisit counter-steering assist

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wardez
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simsimsheree
This tends to run counter to the opinion that CSA and TC make you slower.
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That'll be because, just as with most things in life, a simple yes or no answer isn't going to cut it. CSA and TC1 can lose you time in certain circumstances and in others can gain you time. The effects of CSA are that your braking distance increases (I think) and the car understeers more but you can get on the power more aggressively and mistakes are minimised, so benefits you more the more oversteery the car is, particularly high power road cars. TC again can let you get on the power more aggressively but will makes the car more sluggish, I find TC1 is most useful for high speed corners again in oversteery cars, allows you to maintain more power without losing the rear, and also in understeery cars that oversteer on power, like the Gr.3 M6.
 
Completely agree, Spurgy... nice to see a less polemic answer here.

Of course, that plays into the hands of those that think, at least at the top levels, the CSA should be banned now.

As I have alluded to earlier, the history of allowed aids in GT6 showed a gradual banning of them (at least for certain challenges) as the game got past its initial sales period. So, those of us that think CSA should be banned (even at only higher levels) have only to be patient, and I'm pretty sure this GT will follow the example of earlier GT's, and cater to the more hardcore that will remain playing after a year or two, after the kids have run away to the next bashfest game (I'm betting the new remastered PS4 Burnout will definitely thin GTS's player base at the low end soon!).
 
I would like to say let people use the aids if it helps them. I for one am 50 years old and don’t have the reflexes like I used to. I use the aids to maintain control of my car while racing very hard against others. Yes, I agree that at some point it does make me a bit slower but my consistency is better and when I stomp the throttle I don’t loose control and ruin my race or the race of the person next to me. I love being competitive and the aids help me stay that way. I don’t go off track as much, I don’t spin out in front of others and I don’t ruin races for others. When I use stickier tires, then I do turn the aids down or off. While we are made to run on hard tires when there is no tuning in Sport Mode, I’ll continue to use the aids because I don’t have good throttle control on race hard tires.
I play this game more than any other and I have a blast playing it, I don’t have fun when I ruin races for others when I’m forced to drive a car that I can’t control very well having the aids off.
 
Because I know the brake is very hard to modulate with a pad. They would loose too much players I think.
 
I feel like it's way easier with the throttle. But maybe that's just me. Anyway I rarely play with the pad.
 
I don't have a problem playing ABS off with my G29. But with the pad, I practiced it and I feel like you press it just a little bit and it locks up.
 
I drift much better turning it off.
Controller user here, btw.

For racing, i don´t know. Probably its set for grip recover, not overstering adjustment.
 
Canada_25
Because I know the brake is very hard to modulate with a pad. They would loose too much players I think.
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So how difficult does the game have to be without a driving aid to warrant in being allowed? Don't you think a lot of people who find the game difficult without CSA, would also stop playing Sport Mode if it was banned? Is there a certain number of people you think it would be ok to lose?
 
simsimsheree
Of course, that plays into the hands of those that think, at least at the top levels, the CSA should be banned now.
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Well, since I am "at the top levels" and I don't use it, I can say without reservation that I hope they leave it as is (and they likely will).

Again, it's a nonsensical argument. There are far too many variables that occur during a race (missed apexes, bad braking points, run ins with other drivers, tire wear, etc, etc, etc) to be able to point at these two assists and say they are somehow creating an imbalance. This argument continues to be a witch hunt and an exercise in shaming, initiated by people who simply cannot accept that they are not as good as others.

Your job as a driver/player is to go fastest around the track and hopefully win. Use the tools the game gives you to best achieve that. FULL STOP.

You know what I say if someone beats me with aids on? "Good race"! The aids will have made no difference in the outcome.

I'm with @John Crellin ... If you want a ban on aids, ban them all including ABS. I don't have a problem with that. I will adapt.
 
In my experience TCS is always slower unless your tyres are completely shot. CSA too doesn't seem to be quicker, it's more a safety net if you push it too far in a race, particularly when your tyres are going off.
 
Great discussions everyone. I've tested it out and it doesn't do much for me in terms of speed. Although in some MR cars it does help me get to a fast lap faster than without and is slightly more consistent. But I'd rather progress my skills without it, don't want to turn it into a crutch.

And to be clear, I never intended this to sound like I thought people shouldn't be able to use assists that help them enjoy the game more. I'm all for that, I think it's a lovely thing.

I just saw the use of CSA at the top percentile of competitive drivers as interesting and was wondering if many thought it was becoming a crutch for them.
I'm sure it'll never be taken away, it's going to persist, but it won't be necessary to compete at a high level... and that's all that matters.

Also, after some research and talking with drivers, I've learned and witnessed that a lot of them, while they will use CSA for qualifiers, won't use it in the race for some reason. So that's encouraging.

In that sense, CSA can be seen as sort of a qualifying mode. The reason I'm thinking those drivers don't want to use it in a race is because it makes things less responsive in heated battles. You don't want to run into any more understeer than you need to when in dirty air either. And I'm thinking that CSA would only magnify that effect.

But if you're feeling quick enough that you don't expect to encounter a heated battle, then turning it on for the race might be better for them.
 
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i personally think its a good thing for everyone to use if they feel like they can do better with it. the reason for that is i feel like the less huge mistakes happen in a race the nicer and closer the racing is. it doesn't protect or save a player when they get the line wrong or find themselves out of position while defending so i don't believe it interferes with the race results in any major way in practise
 
Wardez
Also, after some research and talking with drivers, I've noticed a lot of them, while they will use CSA for qualifiers, they won't use it in the race for some reason. So that's encouraging.
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This is interesting. I thought that if anything, CSA is going to be used more in races than in qualifying :confused:
Did you find that info outside the forums or anything?
 
Alpha Cipher
This is interesting. I thought that if anything, CSA is going to be used more in races than in qualifying :confused:
Did you find that info outside the forums or anything?
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I only talked to a handful of people. I wouldn't say this is representative. Just another perspective.
 
inri
the reason for that is i feel like the less huge mistakes happen in a race the nicer and closer the racing is.
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And it's that reason alone why I don't like it because is it's saving people from their mistakes. Very few people can run consistent and mistake free especially when someone is putting the pressure on you.
If your not a new or beginner racer then you should be forced to live with your mistakes and not relying on some fake assist to keep you mistake free. I'm one of those people who will put the pressure someone and take full advantage of their mistakes but now people running with all these crutches start to take away the advantage one would have to capitalize on such an opportunity.
 
Not sure if this is an angle already covered but I'm curious about thoughts on whether CSA may have a potential negative impact on someone's racecraft. In other words, would someone be more willing to charge hard into corners attempting to overtake knowing they have something that can mitigate the risk of doing so? I don't have enough races under my belt yet but sometimes, I get the impression more of the incidents occur around drivers that use the aids.
 
Rinsky
And it's that reason alone why I don't like it because is it's saving people from their mistakes. Very few people can run consistent and mistake free especially when someone is putting the pressure on you.
If your not a new or beginner racer then you should be forced to live with your mistakes and not relying on some fake assist to keep you mistake free. I'm one of those people who will put the pressure someone and take full advantage of their mistakes but now people running with all these crutches start to take away the advantage one would have to capitalize on such an opportunity.
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but this is the crux of the matter .. my view is that this isnt professional racing. most people are making 100 mistakes a lap whether you're putting pressure on them or not
 
inri
but this is the crux of the matter .. my view is that this isnt professional racing. most people are making 100 mistakes a lap whether you're putting pressure on them or not
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Then my next reply would be why not just keep going with it. Bring back SFR and any other assist that keep people from over driving the car or spinnig out. At what point is enough enough. It might not be professional racing but that's no reason to make it as arcade as it can get. Those assist just should not be available once you reach a higher level.
 
OutlawQuadrnt
Not sure if this is an angle already covered but I'm curious about thoughts on whether CSA may have a potential negative impact on someone's racecraft. In other words, would someone be more willing to charge hard into corners attempting to overtake knowing they have something that can mitigate the risk of doing so? I don't have enough races under my belt yet but sometimes, I get the impression more of the incidents occur around drivers that use the aids.
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This is an interesting take. I would say it could definitely lead to more ballsy maneuvers during battles.

Could compare it to boxing. When you wrap your hands and put on gloves, suddenly your hands are well protected and you can send punches one after another without worrying to much about the impact's effect on your hands or wrists.

If you were to fight bare knuckle suddenly you'd have to be a lot more careful because you hands are fragile and if you hit some strong bone at a bad angle - *SNAP*.

So yeah, driving without aids is exactly like bareknuckle fighting.

Seriously bro
 
The absolute best racing experiences IMO do not come from placing high. They come from clean and close door to door racing moments.

Going hard into corners side by side and expecting the worst only to find out they were able to control their car and keep it clean.

Then rocketing out while keeping the rear end in check and finishing so close that you have to look at the leaderboard to see who won. I've had races won and lost by under 0.010sec and nothing has made me smile more.

If all it takes for more of these moments is some stupid assists, then by all means. IMO let everyone else set up their own cars for themselves. Making people play by my strict set of rules only takes away from the competition in my experiences.
 
Rinsky
Then my next reply would be why not just keep going with it. Bring back SFR and any other assist that keep people from over driving the car or spinnig out. At what point is enough enough. It might not be professional racing but that's no reason to make it as arcade as it can get. Those assist just should not be available once you reach a higher level.
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seems fine the way it is to me though personally if the rules change i wouldnt mind. then again they could add speed up boosts and machine guns to the game and i wouldnt mind either
 
Canada_25
All assists except ABS should be prohibited from Sport Mode...
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Traction control is also fine because that is a real life assist.

I don't understand why some people are against a made up assist being banned for elite level racers (DR S)

How can you be elite if you need help with throttle control from the CPU?

It doesn't affect anyone who chooses to use it, they can still do everything they do now.

DRS should take skill.

And for @AlphaCider & @spurgy777
The reason i "only want it banned in S rank" is because i know some people do need it so what is the problem with those that do racing each other and those without racing each other?

The incentive to be S rank is what will make people who want to be better/faster want to turn them off.

Also suggesting from some im complaining because im not where i want to be?
Im no Spurgy777 but im S S so i am extremely happy, where can I possibly want to go from here?
 
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I think that racing super softs and boost should be switched on for FIA and sport races. It would make it easier for everyone to be competitive and make for closer racing and easier to control cars.:sly:
 
phil_75
And for @Alpha Cipher & @spurgy777
The reason i "only want it banned in S rank" is because i know some people do need it so what is the problem with those that do racing each other and those without racing each other?

The incentive to be S rank is what will make people who want to be better/faster want to turn them off.
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I argued about your "Only ban CSA in S rank" statement because your analogies were incorrect and was the reverse of what you're trying to say. Now that you presented valid points, I can now see what your intent
TCS (or maybe ASM, but I haven't tried that yet) can replace CSA in this regard if one wants to have additional stability and consistency on a track. If anything, if not used correctly, CSA is a worse driving aid than TCS, because it doesn't really save you from spins once you get into one. I like what you're trying to say, but CSA, other than for getting that last bit of stability at the sacrifice of no speed, is redundant as a driving aid. TCS can do a better job at preventing spins
 
I haven't been using CSA at all after getting the wheel, it feels horrible. Only benefit I can think of is when you're coming out of corners slightly wide, then you can hit the gas more easily and you don't have to think about the grip that much even if you're touching the grass. You can also stabilize the car with it in some situations but only benefit comes from AFTER you make a small mistake. If you take correct lines and be wise with gas control, ultimately I don't see any benefits.

If you need some sort of help with oversteer etc. just try to use different brake balance in different corners. I think that's much more efficient.
 
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