Motorcycles in GT6?

[thelvynau]

Yeah, you can't come here and pretend to be a business or marketing expert. It's not as simple as, "hey let's make two different games and get more out of it."

Tourist Trophy 2 was a side project. It was a game that was pretty much identical to GT4. I don't understand why you would want a separate TT2 game that would probably have the exact same tracks as GT6 would, unless you want PD to invest major resources and time away from GT, to make several unique bike tracks. In reality, they already have their books full with GT alone, plus possible Vita iteration. Imagine getting Tourist Trophy into the mix.

Unless PD can make TT2 very unique, with its own unique tracks and features (and again this is gonna take away some SERIOUS time/resource away from Gran Turismo), it's gonna get slammed hard for trying to be a full-fledged game selling at $59.99 where it could simply just be an extension or add-on. That's what motorcycles pretty much are; an add-on. That's why you don't see Burnout, Midnight Club, and Project Gothem making separate motorcycle games. PS2 was an exception because there was no way to add on bikes to the existing GT4, but a separate game.

I believe they have the models for the bikes from gt hd

 

[NSXDriver]

Yeah, you can't come here and pretend to be a business or marketing expert. It's not as simple as, "hey let's make two different games and get more out of it."

it really is that simple, they want to maximize profits right? there's no way you'll see bikes in a GT game when they already have an established series dedicated to them.

 

[sinbad]

it really is that simple, they want to maximize profits right? there's no way you'll see bikes in a GT game when they already have an established series dedicated to them.

One game does not make it a series, and things have changed a lot since gt4 and TT.
For one thing they know a dedicated bike game will not sell anywhere near as well as a car game, so that is surely taken into consideration. The volume of content required for a full price release would be a lot, and I can imagine execs would ask why this low volume selling niche title has "delayed" the next block buster.

Digital distribution of a small amount of content to gt5 players makes total sense to me. It would be far more profitable, I'm certain.

 

[analog]

Completely agree, and remember with GT4 having no online there was no other way to introduce bikes than a standalone title and that title in itself was very limited in the amount of content it offered (only 134 bikes with a limited singleplayer mode and only tarmac tracks carried over from GT4, apart from Valencia).

The relative low sales (compared to GT) might be the reason they tried to combine both cars and bikes in GTHD, who knows?
I think it'll only enhance GT6 if they'd also offer bikes as DLC later on.

 

[thelvynau]

Completely agree, and remember with GT4 having no online there was no other way to introduce bikes than a standalone title and that title in itself was very limited in the amount of content it offered (only 134 bikes with a limited singleplayer mode and only tarmac tracks carried over from GT4, apart from Valencia).

The relative low sales (compared to GT) might be the reason they tried to combine both cars and bikes in GTHD, who knows?
I think it'll only enhance GT6 if they'd also offer bikes as DLC later on.

It would be a shame to waste the bikes they developed for gt hd.

 

[analog]

It would be a shame to waste the bikes they developed for gt hd.

Those were the same bikes already developed for TT, just carried over, and I doubt they can use these bikes again since they were build for the PS2.
They were however modelled to a higher degree than the cars from GT4 aka Standard cars (many more polygons, etc.) and featured cockpit view but perhaps that's not enough for next gen (I surely don't want another Standard car debacle).

However I wouldn't mind the original TT (perhaps including a graphical nip and tuck) becoming available as a downloadable PSN game since currently I can't play my example on the PS3 and miss it sorely.

 

[thelvynau]

Those were the same bikes already developed for TT, just carried over, and I doubt they can use these bikes again since they were build for the PS2.
They were however modelled to a higher degree than the cars from GT4 aka Standard cars (many more polygons, etc.) and featured cockpit view but perhaps that's not enough for next gen (I surely don't want another Standard car debacle).

However I wouldn't mind the original TT (perhaps including a graphical nip and tuck) becoming available as a downloadable PSN game since currently I can't play my example on the PS3 and miss it sorely.

Ah I didnt know that I thought they were modelled for gt hd thanks fir the correction.

 

[dhinkaachika]

I wouldn't mind motorcycles on GT6, but the animations would be hard to do, for example, if you were to crash hard, you would probably fall off your bike, but if they don't do that in the game, it would be too unrealistic.

 

[Ills1999]

I'm not sure, in the real world, motos move through turns very differently than do cars. I would guess it would need two completely different engines running simultaneously in order for it to work.

 

[thelvynau]

I'm not sure, in the real world, motos move through turns very differently than do cars. I would guess it would need two completely different engines running simultaneously in order for it to work.

Perhaps they can add TTs physics to gt for the bikes.

 

[NSXDriver]

I wouldn't mind motorcycles on GT6, but the animations would be hard to do, for example, if you were to crash hard, you would probably fall off your bike, but if they don't do that in the game, it would be too unrealistic.

this also brings up the question of cars potentially hitting riders and the implications behind that, could be a PR nightmare for PD if things are too realistic (think GTA) which would also require a T or M ESRB rating due to violence further narrowing their potential revenue...not likely. they would have to figure out how to deal with that on top of the completely different physics.

 

[Griffith500]

A) The physics are the same.
B) The animations were one of the best things about TT.
C) There have been numerous suggestions for contact handling already in this thread.

 

[eran0004]

Well, I think there's a risk that bikes would mess up the game. It might make it more fragmented than what GT5 already is, with a broad range of features, but not very deep. NASCAR adds width to the game, but is a shallow feature in itself. Same goes for rally, F1, FGT, X2010/2011 and carting. If they add bikes they better make it more deep than the above features.

(Actually, the normal cars are also featured very shallow. Where are the endurance events for low performance cars? Why are 90% of all races only five laps? Where are the 30 minutes races, the one hour races? Why can I only spend 10 minutes or 4+ hours on a race? Where is everything in between? Where are the long epic championships with 10 - 15 races? Where is the qualifying? There's a lot of depth missing.)

When it comes to physics, it's not as easy as to simply add motorcycle models to the game and it's done, they need to work on the way they behave on the track (if you want to call that physics or not, i don't know) because motorcycles behave quite different from cars and I'm not sure that what makes a car behave realistic in a game will also by default make a bike behave realistic, my guess is that they need to at least tweak a few parameters. They probably won't have to build a brand new physics engine from scratch, but some work has to be done for sure.

 

[Griffith500]

Well, I think there's a risk that bikes would mess up the game. It might make it more fragmented than what GT5 already is, with a broad range of features, but not very deep. NASCAR adds width to the game, but is a shallow feature in itself. Same goes for rally, F1, FGT, X2010/2011 and carting. If they add bikes they better make it more deep than the above features.

(Actually, the normal cars are also featured very shallow. Where are the endurance events for low performance cars? Why are 90% of all races only five laps? Where are the 30 minutes races, the one hour races? Why can I only spend 10 minutes or 4+ hours on a race? Where is everything in between? Where are the long epic championships with 10 - 15 races? Where is the qualifying? There's a lot of depth missing.)

When it comes to physics, it's not as easy as to simply add motorcycle models to the game and it's done, they need to work on the way they behave on the track (if you want to call that physics or not, i don't know) because motorcycles behave quite different from cars and I'm not sure that what makes a car behave realistic in a game will also by default make a bike behave realistic, my guess is that they need to at least tweak a few parameters. They probably won't have to build a brand new physics engine from scratch, but some work has to be done for sure.

I don't follow, you're saying the lack of depth in GT5 is due to the inclusion of motorbikes? I think the lack of depth in GT5 is because of a focus on tech, and not "gameplay". Besides, if you really want "depth", other games have that more-or-less covered - GT has always been about breadth, and it'll get to the depth eventually.

What makes cars drive the way they do are the "laws" of physics; those same laws happen to apply to motorcycles. It's been said before, but most, if not all, of the stuff that needs to be added to a typical car sim to be able to simulate bikes would actually improve the car sim, because all you're doing is adding in more and more details until the simulated physics more closely approximate real physics. What usually happens is that certain effects are left out of the car simulation, because their effect is "negligible" or because their inclusion is not worth the effort. Surely you can see that adding motorbikes requires more depth to the underlying physics (if we're to maintain the generality of the simulation, which we should be doing), and that can only be a good thing?

 

[Johnnypenso]

There are limited resources to produce the game. Adding motorcycles divers some of those limited resources from cars to bikes. I say leave the bikes out. If I want to race bikes, I'll buy a bike racing game. Focus entirely on 4 wheeled vehicles to race with (you can add racing trucks if you like) and the game will be better off. One thing done as well as possible is preferred over two things done by splitting the resources.

 

[negroboi1987]

Where do you guys get the idea that it's highly impractical or that they'd have to use different physics? Last I heard they could just add motorcycles into GT5 whenever they want, depending on people's interest. That certainly doesn't sound like the fact that adding bikes is going to be a painful process. I'm pretty sure when they showed that GThd demo, the motorcylces and cars were running on the same physics. Plus, Kaz has emphasized many times that everything in the game (road, rally, kart, drift) are all running under one physics engine. Not only that, think about how fast they pulled of Tourist Trophy after GT4. So how is it really impractical?

Putting bikes in the GT franchise would be another step to advancing the GT franchise. Not everyone likes bikes, but it might be similar with people complaining about standard cars in the game, but end up using them many times. It also goes well with the fact that we could now choose our racing gears.

Besides, would you really want a separate Tourist Trophy game? Like the first one, it would probably contain all of the SAME tracks from the "cars" version, with the only difference of it having motorcycles in the game and not cars. Why not just combine them both? I doubt they would add much unique "bike" tracks, if any, and if they do, that would just take a lot of time and money outside of the main franchise.

agreed

 

[analog]

I wouldn't mind motorcycles on GT6, but the animations would be hard to do, for example, if you were to crash hard, you would probably fall off your bike, but if they don't do that in the game, it would be too unrealistic.

I'm not sure, in the real world, motos move through turns very differently than do cars. I would guess it would need two completely different engines running simultaneously in order for it to work.

The rider animations already had them fall off in TT so no issue there, GT4's physics engine was used for TT so GT6's could be used as well, again no issue.

There are limited resources to produce the game. Adding motorcycles divers some of those limited resources from cars to bikes. I say leave the bikes out. If I want to race bikes, I'll buy a bike racing game. Focus entirely on 4 wheeled vehicles to race with (you can add racing trucks if you like) and the game will be better off. One thing done as well as possible is preferred over two things done by splitting the resources.

Even more resources would be used if they created a fully fledged successor to TT.
As for buying a bike game when you want to ride bikes, there aren't any really (believe me, I've tried), most (if not all currently) are specialized games dedicated to one specific series (MotoGP and SBK basically and perhaps MX vs ATV for offroad) and more importantly their physics don't even come close to TT (despite its flaws which tells you something).
It's a bit like saying Codemasters F2012 is a credible alternative to GT if it was discontinued.

Well, I think there's a risk that bikes would mess up the game. It might make it more fragmented than what GT5 already is, with a broad range of features, but not very deep. NASCAR adds width to the game, but is a shallow feature in itself. Same goes for rally, F1, FGT, X2010/2011 and carting. If they add bikes they better make it more deep than the above features.

(Actually, the normal cars are also featured very shallow. Where are the endurance events for low performance cars? Why are 90% of all races only five laps? Where are the 30 minutes races, the one hour races? Why can I only spend 10 minutes or 4+ hours on a race? Where is everything in between? Where are the long epic championships with 10 - 15 races? Where is the qualifying? There's a lot of depth missing.)

When it comes to physics, it's not as easy as to simply add motorcycle models to the game and it's done, they need to work on the way they behave on the track (if you want to call that physics or not, i don't know) because motorcycles behave quite different from cars and I'm not sure that what makes a car behave realistic in a game will also by default make a bike behave realistic, my guess is that they need to at least tweak a few parameters. They probably won't have to build a brand new physics engine from scratch, but some work has to be done for sure.

There is another way of looking at it I guess, if we accept a GT-game inherently cannot be as deep as any specialized game and as a result gets fragmented or varied as I prefer to call it, why not even expand the scope by adding bikes?
As for physics, it worked in TT, far from perfect perhaps but much better than any bike game before or since.

It basically comes down to this, you either enjoyed TT and wait for a successor but can accept them being included in the PD main game with limited use as an add-on DLC pack (or you do not want bikes but can accept them being offered for those who will) or you only want a separate title for practical or whatever credible reason.

Or you just want PD to focus purely on cars even though they sidetracked that notion themselves by releasing a bike game in the first place (otherwise this discussion would indeed be hypothetical), and cannot agree on a compromise which would use the least amount of resources whilst not even be noticeable if you opt not to buy the bike DLC.

 

[ZZ-II]

Yes, just use the physics from TT for bikes in GT6. I never played TT myself, but i don't think the physics were bad.

 

[pininfarina575]

How about 2 separate games, but with shared components such as tracks, graphics, and physics engine. Online, gamers of both GT and TT can come together in one lobby and have fun mingling with cars and bikes on a track day

 

[Griffith500]

Yes, just use the physics from TT for bikes in GT6. I never played TT myself, but i don't think the physics were bad.

They need a lot of improvement, but if that's what it takes, maybe it'd be fine if they only removed ABS.

 

[mjm23race]

How about 2 separate games, but with shared components such as tracks, graphics, and physics engine. Online, gamers of both GT and TT can come together in one lobby and have fun mingling with cars and bikes on a track day

Then why not make it make all in one game, I don't get the logic, except for keeping the die hards mouths quiet. That will just let them focus their vocal criticism in other areas I guess.

 

[mjm23race]

Griffith500, I tried sending you a pm but you are full. I will send an email this afternoon.

 

[The Stig Farmer]

I personally like the idea of bikes in GT6, would be like a realistic MotorStorm

 

[thelvynau]

I personally like the idea of bikes in GT6, would be like a realistic MotorStorm

I was thinking about the challenge for tuners to get a car setup to compete with a bike.

 

[Lain]

IMHO if Polyphony wants to continue doing the whole TT thing, it should be as a component of Gran Turismo rather than a separate game.

The arguments against its inclusion into the GT series don't really hold water:

"b-b-but its the real driving simulator, not the real riding simulator" - so you're basing your argument over the semantics of the GT slogan that's as old as the series itself? I guess in addition to keeping bikes out of GT, we'd better get rid of the all the racing too, since it's the real driving simulator.

"it'll take away development time away from the GT part of GT and they'll focus less on the cars and whatnot" - The same would be true even if they were developing TT as a separate game. In fact, more development time/effort would be taken away from GT if they were developing TT as a separate game.

"Bikes vs cars is dumb/unrealistic" - It wouldn't be bikes racing against cars. It'd be bikes vs bikes and cars vs cars for the A-spec/B-spec events. Probably the only time you'd see bikes racing against cars is if you're just goofing off with some friends online.

"I just don't see why they should combine it with GT" - If you'd ever played the original TT, you should know that GT4 and TT shared A LOT of the same resources. It's a lot more practical/efficient to combine the two. Plus, it's not necessarily a matter of "why should they?". For the people who like bikes, it would just be cool... almost like getting two games for the price of one. And it's addition would almost certainly be implemented in such a way as to not hinder the experience of those who don't like bikes. So I ask you: Why shouldn't they combine it with GT?

 

[Gt5Ps]

No bikes bro

 

[mjm23race]

No bikes bro

Why? You scared bro?

 

[The Stig Farmer]

Really, who says "bro" anymore? Apart from the trolls

Back on topic...

If there was one thing that would tip me over into bike fanaticism it'd be a GT with bikes. To be honest I wouldn't consider a bike-only game, just like I wouldn't a NASCAR or F1 title. I like variety and GT serves it up

 

[Youngun]

Really, who says "bro" anymore? Apart from the trolls

Back on topic...

If there was one thing that would tip me over into bike fanaticism it'd be a GT with bikes. To be honest I wouldn't consider a bike-only game, just like I wouldn't a NASCAR or F1 title. I like variety and GT serves it up

Bikes belong on tourist trophy weather it'll be a Gt6 expansion or a stand alone game.

 

[diegorborges]

I love the idea of bikes on GT6... I said that before but I want to repeat it again.

Trackdays on the Nordschleife will be amazing, just like real ones. Cars, bikes, the lot.