Motorcycles in GT6?

[eddyac]

Well you don't got intrest but many others.

 

[Lain]

I got no interests in MC's and i think they should put more time in Car Customization instead of puttin in MC's

Unless you're suggesting that Polyphony should only ever work on the car-centric Gran Turismo and never do anything else whatsoever simply because of your personal preference, the idea that adding bikes will detract from the effort put into the cars is a fallacy.

If Polyphony decided to make another separate Tourist Trophy game, that'd take more time away from GT than if they simply added the bikes into GT.

Also, just something to consider: I never had any interests in cars... until I played Gran Turismo. And I never had any interests in bikes until I played Tourist Trophy. Maybe you should give 'em a chance before you form a strong opinion against the addition of a feature that many other people would enjoy.

 

[Griffith500]

Neither was GT4.

It wouldn't have to be $60, but that's the standard price for console games nowadays, so it'd be surprising if Sony decided it ought to be sold for less. HD collections of old PS2 games selling for $40 is one thing, but we're talking a brand new game here... even if a lot of the code/assets are recycled from GT5/GT6. They didn't initially price GT5 at $40, despite 80% of the cars being recycled from GT4, so why would they sell TT2 for $40 for recycling assets from GT5?

...

Yeah, I was hoping someone would spot that. TT was still cheaper than GT4 was new, much like GT4 Prologue (and, oddly enough, GT5 Prologue) so clearly PD aren't scared to go against the "standard" pricing thing. It was also an experiment, so that might have had a bearing on price.

GT3, despite having far fewer cars than GT2, was more expensive, so clearly it's not about car count - it's not really about assets at all, it's about balancing development costs. TT was cheaper to make than GT4, so it was cheaper to buy - the same would be likely for a TT add-on for GT5 / GT6, but a full-blown game might not be as cheap next time.

 

[Lain]

Yeah, I was hoping someone would spot that. TT was still cheaper than GT4 was new, much like GT4 Prologue (and, oddly enough, GT5 Prologue) so clearly PD aren't scared to go against the "standard" pricing thing. It was also an experiment, so that might have had a bearing on price.

GT3, despite having far fewer cars than GT2, was more expensive, so clearly it's not about car count - it's not really about assets at all, it's about balancing development costs. TT was cheaper to make than GT4, so it was cheaper to buy - the same would be likely for a TT add-on for GT5 / GT6, but a full-blown game might not be as cheap next time.

Polyphony's just the developer, Sony is the publisher so it's them who calls the shots when it comes to pricing. And the reason why they priced it cheaper was probably mostly due to it being an experimental game like you said, rather than how much it cost to make it.

They were testing the waters with TT, and judging by the lack of any subsequent TT games, I'm guessing that Sony wasn't terribly impressed by its performance. If VGChartz is to be believed, it sold just slightly over half a million copies worldwide. The fact that it didn't sell well is made all the worse by the fact that it was priced below the standard. I strongly doubt we'll see ever see another standalone Tourist Trophy game for this reason.

But TT was awesome, so I'd definitely love to see it become a part of GT.

 

[Griffith500]

A dire lack of marketing and promotion probably didn't help TT's sales - I only happened upon it by accident. I think I'm right in remembering that it took a lot of convincing to get GT going in the first place, the thinking at the time being that nobody was interested in such a game.

Well, you could argue that nobody's interested in TT, so they probably should make a sequel. An "expansion" to a GT game is still more likely, of course.

I'm fairly certain Kaz (and, by extension, PD) has some say in pricing, he's a Senior Vice President at SCE. That said, Kaz has probably changed his viewpoints on price / value after his apparent bemusement at the (initially) positive reception for paid DLC for GT5.

 

[analog]

I've yet to see a compelling argument for why bikes don't "belong" in Gran Turismo.

The argument of "because it's a car game" is laughable.

Indeed, cars and motorcycles were separated at birth anyway and share so much of the same things that get petrolheads excited that it's more of a logical extension than a weird extra like powerboats for example would be.

1885 Daimler

1885 Benz

I mean we can use the same tracks but in a completely different way so it'll only add to the game overall, and if it's optional DLC it'll only add something for those who want it and not take anything away for those who don't, if anything it takes less time and resources than TT2 would and create more revenue for PD in the process which possibly could lead to more tracks being added to be used for all, there are also lots of motorcycle tracks (like Valencia in TT) which are also great for cars.

And another thing, just look at the huge variety in the very limited bike list of TT, it includes all sorts of bikes from different periods not found in any other bike game and also not found in other games which include both cars and bikes (those often include only supercars versus sportbikes).

 

[Scuderia Paul]

I have never been a motorbike fan but if GT6 were to feature them I would not mind. Having said that, I would much rather get additional cars and circuits than motorbikes but it is a logical extension if PD wanted to broaden the appeal of GT.
Should they appear in the same game they should have separate events and not compete on-track together apart from online and custom arcade races.

 

[analog]

I have never been a motorbike fan but if GT6 were to feature them I would not mind. Having said that, I would much rather get additional cars and circuits than motorbikes

I can understand that if you don't like bikes but I think you have to see it as an alternative to TT2, that would also take time developing.

 

[Griffith500]

It has that "personal" element, too. In GT you pick a car and do battle in the early stages of the game, and in so-doing become somewhat attached to it for "enabling" you to see the rest of the game. Granted, the structure of TT wasn't quite the same as it is in GT, in terms of how you acquire bikes, but you're still able to pick and tune a bike to suit a certain race event.

Then there's the way it introduces you to models, technology and other aspects of the industry you weren't aware of. There's definitely room for that philosophy applied to other mechanical monstrosities, not just bikes.

 

[buickgnx88]

What about, if they did decide to integrate the two, they provide the main GT6 game on disc one, and the motorcycle parts on disc two. If someone wants to use the motorcycle portion in GT6, then they would install the second disc to the harddrive. If not, then the game would just play like GT1-GT5.

 

[thelvynau]

What about, if they did decide to integrate the two, they provide the main GT6 game on disc one, and the motorcycle parts on disc two. If someone wants to use the motorcycle portion in GT6, then they would install the second disc to the harddrive. If not, then the game would just play like GT1-GT5.

People would probably complain that they paid full price for a second motorcycle disc they will never use.

In their eyes they would think they are only getting 50% for full price.

 

[buickgnx88]

True. It's just one of those things where people will complain regardless. Personally I wouldn't mind if it were included, I just wouldn't want it to count towards the 100% of the car-side of the game. I was never a fan of bikes in Midnight Club, nor in GTA (unless I was doing stunt jumps), and wouldn't want to be forced to use them (like in MC).

 

[thelvynau]

I do agree.

The problem is how would this be implemented to appeal to a wider range of gamers.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

I'd like to see a TT2 made that was both a standalone game and an add on for GT6. So if you own both GT6 and TT2 you would be given some bikes to use online and practice/arcade modes in GT6. Then as you unlock bikes and complete events in TT2 you would also unlock the bikes in GT6.

This way those who only want a car game can buy GT6 (and set online rooms to cars only). Those who just want a bike game can purchase TT2. And those who are fans of both cars and bikes can use them both in the same game.

I presume a TT game would be a lot smaller than GT6 will be, so perhaps it could be given a lower price point to compensate? Maybe £40 for GT6, £20 for TT2 and a combo pack for £50?

 

[Lain]

^ interesting idea.

But I think they should take it a step further. Make GT6 and TT2 seperate releases, but make it so that if you've got both games, they combine into one super-game by installing the TT content to the hard drive. That way people who love both cars and bikes don't have to switch games to switch from driving cars to riding bikes and vice versa.

 

[NjLowrider]

What about people with a wheel? I'm not gonna ride a street bike in my racing chair?

 

[thelvynau]

What about people with a wheel? I'm not gonna ride a street bike in my racing chair?

It would give custom cockpit modders a new ptoject.

 

[Conza]

^ interesting idea.

But I think they should take it a step further. Make GT6 and TT2 seperate releases, but make it so that if you've got both games, they combine into one super-game by installing the TT content to the hard drive. That way people who love both cars and bikes don't have to switch games to switch from driving cars to riding bikes and vice versa.

This... almost. Was right with you up until the combining and installing part, I think release two seperate games, job done.

 

[Lain]

This... almost. Was right with you up until the combining and installing part, I think release two seperate games, job done.

Care to give an explanation as to why? Or are you just gonna state your baseless opinion and leave it at that?

When they're the same game but one's with cars and one's with bikes, what do you have against my idea of allowing the player to install the bikes to the hard drive so that they can enjoy GT/TT as one cohesive experience?

 

[Conza]

Care to give an explanation as to why? Or are you just gonna state your baseless opinion and leave it at that?

When they're the same game but one's with cars and one's with bikes, what do you have against my idea of allowing the player to install the bikes to the hard drive so that they can enjoy GT/TT as one cohesive experience?

I just think its an overly complicated idea for a problem that doesn't really exist.

Why not just swap discs? 'I'm in the mood for cars' = GT6, and 'I'm in the mood for bikes' - TT2.

If it's two seperate games, just leave it at that, it'll be better like that, otherwise adding motorbikes to GT6 is an option, but I prefer the idea of a seperate game, as the content from both games will be less muddled, two seperate engines, two seperate stories, ect, otherwise one will just be tagged onto another.

Isn't everything I'm saying pretty obvious? I'm starting to think I should've declined the offer to elaborate

EDIT: Alternatively, allow people to fully install their games to their consoles, as well as, the option to upgrade the drives, and geez louise, we'll be able to do the game swap without horrible load times or swapping discs - that'd be fantastic!

 

[Lain]

I just think its an overly complicated idea for a problem that doesn't really exist.

It's not "overly complicated". In fact, it's pretty simple. And you're right, the "problem" of adding bikes to GT isn't a problem at all, but for those who insist that bikes don't belong in GT, this is the best solution for pleasing those people as well as the people who want bikes to be a part of their GT experience.

Why not just swap discs? 'I'm in the mood for cars' = GT6, and 'I'm in the mood for bikes' - TT2.

If it's two seperate games, just leave it at that, it'll be better like that, otherwise adding motorbikes to GT6 is an option, but I prefer the idea of a seperate game, as the content from both games will be less muddled, two seperate engines, two seperate stories, ect, otherwise one will just be tagged onto another.

Why should the player have to swap discs when most of the content on said discs is exactly the same? It's not two separate games or two separate engines.

Combining the two wouldn't be nearly as messy as you think. I mean, just imagine the GT5 GT Life menu:

There's a couple of very simple ways they could go about merging the TT content with the GT content.

1. Squish the A-Spec and B-Spec menu items horizontally to make room for a "M-Spec" to fit along side the others, rename the Dealerships item to "Car Dealerships" and squish it vertically to make room for a "Bike Dealerships" to fit underneath it, etc.

or 2. Simply add a "TT Life" underneath the GT Life option on the sidebar there.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I don't think that there should be any bikes in GT6. It's not that I don't want to race cars and bikes, but motorcycles are so different from cars that PD would have to completely redo the physics. Also, motorcycles require a lot of physical involve,net, which is difficult to simulate in a video game. Let them get the cars perfect, first, and then expand into bikes.

 

[thelvynau]

I don't think that there should be any bikes in GT6. It's not that I don't want to race cars and bikes, but motorcycles are so different from cars that PD would have to completely redo the physics. Also, motorcycles require a lot of physical involve,net, which is difficult to simulate in a video game. Let them get the cars perfect, first, and then expand into bikes.

Why can't they use the physics from tt?

 

[amar212]

I don't think that there should be any bikes in GT6. It's not that I don't want to race cars and bikes, but motorcycles are so different from cars that PD would have to completely redo the physics.

That is absolutely inaccurate perception.

Cars and bikes *shares* the absolutely same physics, what is different is actual physical behaviour of the vehicle/chassis/tyres, but once you have good physics-model, it just brings down to applying driver's weight-shift and dynamic-aerodynamics (which original TT already had) into physics.

Many people do not know Polyphony Digital's motorbike-lover Takamasa Shichisawa, who is normally working on the landscape design for GT games, and one of the guys from studio made first in-house demo for TT in their spare time with some basic help from Akihiko Tan and 3 more PD guys.

They literally made complete game before showing it to Kazunori who was so fascinated by the alteration that he made TT project being greenlighted at SCEI. Because of his work Takamasa Shichisawa was named as Director of the Tourist Trophy game and on the cover of the game it is him who is riding the CBR600 on the photo of the TT cover.

Akihiko Tan - director of the GT physics since the first game - was in charge of physics part, while Norio Takama - guy who was in charge of human animation for GT4 and some support programming - made all algorithms for driver body-behaviour and such.

In short, Tourist Trophy was literally *baby* of 6 people in PD who was working on it in their spare time with available assets and resources from GT4.

Tourist Trophy 2 would not be waste of resources or anything similar by any mean if ever greenlighted. Guys would produce it instead of sleeping, same they did with the first TT - which is still the best motorbike driving simulation ever created.

For actual implementation, I see it as either DLC or *normal* disc-release that would either work as standalone game or allow to be *imported* into GT game. Games would *share* the same title screen, but GT Life would be one section and Tourist Trophy Life another. For the Arcade Mode you would be able to select mixed races, as well as for Private Lobby races in online mode of both sections. Also, it would be great if owners of both games (installed on the same console) would get some mixed Seasonals with nice challenges, etc.

Of course, nobody would be *forced* to anything, if you want to play only Gran Turismo and never to see bike on the track with cars, you could no problem - but if you want integrated games, you would get an option to do so with complete options.

I would gladly pay up to 60$ for a proper TT expansion for GT5/GT6 and wouldn't even think twice.

 

[MattL22]

I don't think that there should be any bikes in GT6. It's not that I don't want to race cars and bikes, but motorcycles are so different from cars that PD would have to completely redo the physics. Also, motorcycles require a lot of physical involve,net, which is difficult to simulate in a video game. Let them get the cars perfect, first, and then expand into bikes.

I couldn't agree with you more. I am a car and bike enthusiast, but I would rather see PD perfect a CAR simulator/game first before they get too distracted with a bike addition

 

[Griffith500]

I couldn't agree with you more. I am a car and bike enthusiast, but I would rather see PD perfect a CAR simulator/game first before they get too distracted with a bike addition

PD will never make a perfect car simulation; nor will anyone else for that matter. You stick to your dreams, but don't hold the rest of us back with you.

There's also one simple fact, that was written in the second line in the post above yours: the physics are the same. Anything you need to add to GT's physics model to better model motorbikes will also better model cars.
Don't be swayed by the claims of witchcraft from some motorcycle riders regarding control issues, the physics are well understood by anyone with a grounding in classical (/ "Newtonian") mechanics.



I also still don't know why people are asking what to do with their wheel setups - don't they know you can use a pad at the same time? PD need only remove the odd loss of steering on the pad when a wheel is connected, and it's fine and dandy, easy to swap between the two.

 

[sinbad]

"Perfect" is indeed impossible, but I also really hope that the next iteration of Gran Turismo is a huge step forward in the physics simulation department, and as much as I want bikes in a PD game, if it's a choice between bikes and pc sim standard physics for the cars, I would have to choose the cars.

TT was based on gt4, and apart from the general riding sensation, it's hopeless from any other simulation perspective, particularly tyres, which are probably the reason behind the laughable nanny helps that cannot be turned off.

Imho gt5, whilst in some ways better, is not a huge leap forward from gt4. (I still really don't know what they were thinking with whatever reduced pitch and roll in the way it did.) You can't really claim something is realistic if it doesn't even look realistic. And don't get me started on the bloody stupid tyre smoke generation!! (Why this doesn't seem to be an issue for anyone else is a complete mystery to me.)

If they implement bikes into gt5 physics, I have ugly visions of bikes that don't dive anywhere near enough under braking, smoke pouring off a sliding rear tyre as you "back it in" to a corner, and probably the front too if you go in a little too hot (see gt5).

I do want bikes in gran turismo, but what I really want is a great Gran Turismo game first.
Bikes just like those in TT would be a short term novelty, but a long term disappointment.

I do feel like GT isn't made with the same attention to the important things any more.

 

[hardvibes]

Why wouldn't it work?....

 

[1241Penguin]

That is absolutely inaccurate perception.

Cars and bikes *shares* the absolutely same physics, what is different is actual physical behaviour of the vehicle/chassis/tyres, but once you have good physics-model, it just brings down to applying driver's weight-shift and dynamic-aerodynamics (which original TT already had) into physics.

I have a question when people say this; when you say same "physics," do you mean same physics engine, or same physics physics (like E=mgh, Fnormal=mg) that sort of thing?

 

[Fire Yoshi]

PD seems to like offroad racing, so I wouldn't mind seeing them try something with Motocross. I'm a huge fan of the sport.