Ovals VS Road Courses

[djanikowski]

Everyone that thinks NASCAR is low tech should read this article. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0803_chevy_nascar_engine/index.html

"Consider this: when you run the numbers, at 9,500 rpm, mean piston speed is 5,145 feet per minute with a maximum velocity of 8,380 ft/min at a crank angle of 76 degrees. Maximum positive piston acceleration is approximately 3,100 g, while the negative acceleration is nearly minus 5,300 g. How on earth can a big old 358ci pushrod V-8 live under such tremendous and sustained abuse, handling forces heretofore seen mainly in F1 engines? "

 

[Earth]

You stole the words right from my thoughts.The only celebrities are country music artist who'll give the winner a "gitar" for display. I personally know people who think NASCAR is the most competitive motorsport in the world and I have to break it down to them it's just cars with american sedan chassis with lots of stickers and a 750 HP engine going around a 4-turn oval 250 to 400 times.
Seriously entertaining...
Then I was amazed to how see how many zeros their paychecks had.

And how is it not entertaining? That's right, you cant tell me because you've taken everything for face value.

Friends, this is a perfect example of scoffing at and dismissing the book with the dull cover. "Its just american sedan chassis with stickers going around a circle 400 times" or so says the shallow one.

And the supposedly superior alternative is road racing, more specifically F1 as mentioned by many posters in this thread.

Lets see, who is F1 ran by. One is a Nazi sympathizer that praises Hitler, the other enjoys role playing as a Nazi with prostitutes in orgies.

Real Road racing from my favorite racing series ever, CART. F1 would kill to have anything close to this

I will admit that previous to 2003 I thought it was boring like everyone else. Than I got stuck watching the Bud Shootout since no other channels would come in and after that I was hooked.

I remember watching the 2006 race at Las Vegas and my father and brother started criticizing me, saying why was I watching cars go in circles, then this happened and they were like "WOW is that live!!! I've never seen anything like that in my life!" Another example of judging a book by its cover but in this case the inside of the book was revealed to them for a few minutes

Who said there is no such thing as great passing on ovals

 

[LSX]

Yeah, I was like 7 and went to a race in Daytona. I've missed maybe one season at Daytona since, I'm now about 23... It hooks you in when you're there to see it and what it's all about. Not just Nascar, but oval racing in general.

Same happened with girls I've taken, and people who thought Nascar and oval racing was lame, for the same "only left turns blah blah.", They went only because I bought their ticket. And guess who was wondering if we were going come July when the cars came back to Daytona? The same people I converted in February. Which really just consisted of nothing but letting them experience it.

Some of you haters fly yourselves down to Florida from across the pond, I'll show you just how boring oval racing is. You have less than a month... I better not catch you smiling.

 

[Northstar]

Everyone that thinks NASCAR is low tech should read this article. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0803_chevy_nascar_engine/index.html

They think it is because, we it is.

Here is an interesteing video that shows how a NASCAR car is built. It doesn't show the Engine dept. but most shops don't as that's where most of the technology comes in and they don't want other teams finding out their "secrets".


It's probably one of the best mixes of old/low technology and new technology.


Note: The video is from 2005 when they used 4 different types of cars, they mostly only use one type today.

 

[djanikowski]

They think it is because, we it is.

Here is an interesteing video that shows how a NASCAR car is built. It doesn't show the Engine dept. but most shops don't as that's where most of the technology comes in and they don't want other teams finding out their "secrets".


It's probably one of the best mixes of old/low technology and new technology.


Note: The video is from 2005 when they used 4 different types of cars, they mostly only use one type today.

The article is all about the new Chevy engine that was introduced in 2008, if you can get past the pushrod and the 4 barrel carb, it is extremely high end tech.

 

[Northstar]

The article is all about the new Chevy engine that was introduced in 2008, if you can get past the pushrod and the 4 barrel carb, it is extremely high end tech.

Like I said, they didn't show the engine room because that is where the technology comes in.

I just posted the video to show it's really a blend of both low and hign tech.

 

[LSX]

This is some exciting oval racing. 3 wide at a track like Lowe's rarely works out. These guys are putting it all out there in this 10 lap shootout in the 2009 All-Star. Kyle Busch really has a bunch of skill or some serious accessories to pull this off.

I think even if you don't appreciate oval racing, you can appreciate this scramble right here.

 

[EamerRed]

Have you ever seen the end of a good NASCAR race? The last 10 laps are usually more exciting & contain more action than a near-full F1 race.

Every time I catch F1, everybody is always just a few seconds ahead of each other. I see no brilliant driving, just the Top 3-4 trying to play catch up. Watching 2-3 drivers in Nascar though drafting each other & trading some paint in the final moments is quite entertaining, esp. for the championships.

In fact, F1 has started to become the dullest motorsport for me. I see more action in FIA, DTM, & BTCC. TBQH, F1 is becoming more like a soap than a racing series with all the off-the-track news that comes out.

Not really my point though is it. I don't see how it's possible to have say, a moment of brilliance in NASCAR. You look at F1, and look at Hakkinen's overtake on Schumacher at Spa, and think christ, that is a world class maneouvre.

 

[EamerRed]

What do you mean by skill? Alot of people say rally drivers are the most skilled, but would they succeed in F1, NASCAR, sportscars, motorcycles, or even the NHRA? Roadcourses, ovals, rally etc all require something different from a driver.

True, but NASCAR involves braking down to medium speeds for a corner, and keeping it true through that corner, say for 4 different corners in a race. F1 is completely different, you have to master 20 different corners, entering at different speeds, with large tracks where conditions can be different at one end to another.


On most road courses most drivers, even mediocre drivers once they've settled in dont have much of a problem running within .1 or .2 of their average lap even if the lap is 120 seconds or more.

That's not true. In fact in the Japanese Grand Prix Qualifying only 2nd and 3rd were within .2 of the fastest time.

However on an oval with lap times ranging from 15-30 seconds it can be just as difficult to lap within .1 to .2 of a second of your average lap.

Why? Speeds on ovals are much higher then a road course so any little mistake in the corner is magnified down the long straights. On road courses you make up more time going faster through the fast bits then faster through the slower bits. This is magnified on an oval as every 'bit' is extremely fast.

See above.

How is overtaking on an oval not the same concept as overtaking on a road course? It's all the same as its all about racing line and momentum.

As for heavy braking, no track in the world is tougher on brakes then the oval in Martinsville Virginia

It's completely different. Oval courses have enough room for overtakes, and as I said, you're not braking down to low speeds. And I beg to differ on the braking issue. Monza must be worse, braking down from 200mph to 2nd gear turns 4 times a lap is tougher on brakes imo.


Yes, there is more to racing then overtaking. As you mentioned there is strategy. However overtaking should not be downplayed as there is nothing more exciting in motorsport. All F1 has to do to improve overtaking is add some weight to the cars to increase the stupid short stopping distances and stop penalizing the drivers for contact which is almost always incidental.

Well, I'll lay down what makes ovals difficult and anything but boring, at least to me.

- high speeds. At your average roadcourse there may be one turn taken at over 140mph whereas in alot of ovals every turn is taken in speeds between 160 - 200+ mph. This makes the car much more sensitive and on edge. Also at these speeds mistakes are magnified

I know of a raod racer who while attempting to qualify for Indy tried to correct a drift as he would on a roadcourse by quickly countersteering. Because of the higher speeds at Indy the car was much more sensitive so he quickly lost control and slammed head on into the wall, ending his life. An extreme example but it shows just how different road racing is from high speed oval racing.

- traffic. because of factors like short lap times, drafting, multiple grooves and close lap times you will almost always have to deal with cars around you where as on a roadcourse cars tend to get strung out because of circuit length, lack of drafting and single groove courses with no real passing opportunities.

I saw that crash Smiley iirc. Like I said, I'm not trying to dig at your sport, but I'm just saying the reasons I don't find it as entertaining. An overtake in F1 is a big thing, whereas if someone overtakes in NASCAR it's just meh, because it will happen again soon. That's an advantage to you yes, but a disadvantage to me.

 

[Ardius]

That's easy

- low technology cars
- no right hand turns
- no celebrities in the pits
- no Ferraris
- hardly any braking

toyota gt1, some people are just very twisted by years of watching bad racing they wouldn't know a good race if it hit them in the face.

All but 2 of those apply to Touring Cars too, and WRC...bad racing?

 

[Heath_1]

Nascars themselves are as old school as the tracks they drive on. They're still in the dark ages. oval shaped track, they don't have center lock wheels, they still have carby engines and only have a 4 speed gearbox.. it's like they never wanted to come out of the 60's.

Everywhere else around the world has state of the art racing circuits with technical left and right hand turns, hills that go up and down, huge pit crews with one man for each wheel, state of the art refueling devices, center lock wheels, fuel injected engines.

and then there's Nascar. Oh dear.

 

[Joey D]

You can find basically anything boring or exciting, it just depends on if you want it to be or not. It's basically the whole, "you can find beauty in anything if you have an open mind" thing.

I will admit that previous to 2003 I thought it was boring like everyone else. Than I got stuck watching the Bud Shootout since no other channels would come in and after that I was hooked. This is also what kind of happened with NHRA, I couldn't stand it for the longest time. However in 2008 I got invited to go to the Brainerd race and went and the same thing basically happened.

I've attempted to watch it on TV and I've been to a race at Michigan International Speedway but it still bores me. There was even a time when I didn't mind it and I was watching the race when Dale Earnhardt died, but I've just lost all interest in it. I don't find the racing all that exciting.

And I think F1 is the same way before anyone throws that argument at me again.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Nascars themselves are as old school as the tracks they drive on. They're still in the dark ages. oval shaped track, they don't have center lock wheels, they still have carby engines and only have a 4 speed gearbox.. it's like they never wanted to come out of the 60's.

Everywhere else around the world has state of the art racing circuits with technical left and right hand turns, hills that go up and down, huge pit crews with one man for each wheel, state of the art refueling devices, center lock wheels, fuel injected engines.

and then there's Nascar. Oh dear.

Its all just rules imposed on the cars. The closest thing we have to state of the art is F1 and they are still simply working within the limits of the rules.

NASCAR also works at the technological limits of their technology. Sure they're run on carbies instead of injection. A bigger nascar fan could probably explain what the deal is with them, but from what I understand the high G forces in banked turns creates massively different power from the left and right banks of the engine, but the teams have pushed the technology to overcome this. I've also been told (didn't really understand the how or why, so again a nascar fan will have to explain) that the distributors on them are set up to have what is essentially variable ignition across all cylinders.

The only things that push technology to its limits are high level military aircraft Everything else just works within the limitations set. Racing has the big limitations regardless of which series you look at, they are just "different" limitations and the good teams push those limits.

EDIT: Also, I notice you have a V8 supercar in your avatar and you're Australian. Do you realise how crap V8 supercars are from an engineering perspective? On the rear they have locked diffs, live axles, watts linkage and they have horrid aerodynamics.

 

[Seismica]

First off, Marcos Ambrose doesnt suck in NASCAR. He did quite well for the team he is on and would have been rookie of the year if he qualified.

Second off, alot of motorsports are considered boring by alot of people, F1 included. I know of many Americans who think NASCAR sucks and is boring, I know of many Europeans etc who think F1 sucks and is boring.

Racing is racing. We are not comparing soccer and the NFL.

The difference is NASCAR is like a book with an old, extremely plain looking cover that alot of people pass on or give very little thought to but inside the book is extremely deep, entertaining, and exciting. Other motorsports have flashy covers and attract many more by that alone but inside the book can be rather boring.

Third, you say its just around and around in a circle. First, Indy, Daytona, Bristol, these are anything but a circle. Second, what exactly is this besides a circle with a few chicanes sprinkled in on the straights?

Fourth, these "circles" produce high speeds and the closest racing in the world.

Fifth, theres more oval fans worldwide then your willing to admit, and this will only grow larger with GT5



That's easy

- low technology cars
- no right hand turns
- no celebrities in the pits
- no Ferraris
- hardly any braking

toyota gt1, some people are just very twisted by years of watching bad racing they wouldn't know a good race if it hit them in the face.

We have the thread winner.

 

[crab66]

The only things that push technology to its limits are high level military aircraft Everything else just works within the limitations set.

That's just not true. Not at all.

 

[WolfRacer543]

That's just not true. Not at all.

I was slightly joking, hence the "". In reality EVERYTHING works within some set limitation of rules or budget. Military aircraft just have some of the coolest limitations and biggest budgets

 

[MatskiMonk]

Nascars themselves are as old school as the tracks they drive on. They're still in the dark ages. oval shaped track, they don't have center lock wheels, they still have carby engines and only have a 4 speed gearbox.. it's like they never wanted to come out of the 60's.

Everywhere else around the world has state of the art racing circuits with technical left and right hand turns, hills that go up and down, huge pit crews with one man for each wheel, state of the art refueling devices, center lock wheels, fuel injected engines.

and then there's Nascar. Oh dear.

Most ovals are newer than many of the "sacred" F1 circuits

Tracks like Silverstone (and possibly the likes of Monza and Spa) are NOT state of the art - some of the newer Tilke facilities (that people don't like) however, are.

Huge pit crews and state of the art refuelling rigs ---- ah yes, sore subject for Ferrari that one, them state of the art rigs that sometimes jam, or spew fuel onto hot exhausts, or sometimes don't deliver any fuel, or sometimes get torn off and dragged down the pitlane... and those centre lock wheels, great them, those F1 wheels - except when they aren't screwed on properly, and you get flagged (Renault for instance last year), or they jam during pit-stops.. yeah brilliant.

And if you really love fuel injected engines, well, NASCAR is changing to them soon too. Might be a good thing, might not. NASCAR engines are normally bomb-proof (given the extended periods of time at max rev's), F1 engines, though better recentley are still quite delicate.

Gearboxes, ahh yes, again another component of an F1 car well known for ending races and sometimes costing championships! Seriously though, the number of speeds aren't that relevant to a NASCAR, as they spend a high portion of the time in a narrowish speed-band.


Yes the tech might be old, but "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

 

[LSX]

Again on those center lug wheels...

If you don't get the single lug tightened, your coming back in.

If you don't get one on a five lug wheel, you still have four that are tight. Make your run unless for some reason you start picking up vibrations.

I don't know many oval facility's that are not state of the art. Unlike F1 for example, Nascar pays the tracks for use, not the track paying them to show up. So I'd think them to have the money to keep upgrading as the need arises. Daytona, one of the oldest tracks on the schedule, and in the same age range as somewhere like Monza, is as up to date as the new Tilke tracks. Even right now, construction is going on to improve it further.

Being a fan of both series and both forms of racing, it's weird to me thinking someone does not like them both. They both have so much to offer, it just seems narrow minded to think one is garbage when while the other is gold. They aren't really that far off from from each other, honestly. They are both the peak of each respective from of motorsport. Something tells me many people have not given it a chance, likewise with F1 here in the states.

Really though, who cares anyways.... It does not hurt me if you don't enjoy it.

However...

Like I've already said, fly to Daytona, I'll buy your ticket and I will change your mind on oval racing.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Like I've already said, fly to Daytona, I'll buy your ticket and I will change your mind on oval racing.

Hows about you pay the air-fare, and I get the ticket price, then I'll see you there 👍

 

[SKNO1]

I always liked watching the nascar races with certain extremes, bristol- very short, talladega- flat out, you win in the draft. martinsville- very flat.. Pocono- 3 turns each different. all interesting to watch

 

[LSX]

Hows about you pay the air-fare, and I get the ticket price, then I'll see you there 👍

You already enjoy oval racing

I'll buy dinner, drinks and the tickets. You can float over if you need to . Airfare is what keeps me from visiting an F1 race.

 

[Nattefrost]

Like I've already said, fly to Daytona, I'll buy your ticket and I will change your mind on oval racing.

Why is every Nascar fan in here so obsessed with trying to convince the non-fans? Some people just don't like it and nothing will make them think otherwise, just accept that.

 

[quickben]

I'll probably give the NASCAR cars a go in GT5, just not the oval tracks. We've had the test track in GT for years now and I can't remember the last time I considered going on it. I can't think of anything in the game more boring than driving flat out constantly with just a couple of "bends" to brake the monotony. I know there's more to it than that but, be honest, there's not much more to it is there ? For me, there's not much difference between oval racing and drag racing. Neither of them challenge the entire dyamic capabilities of a car and therefore neither of them hold much interest for me.

I like accelerating\braking, I like perfecting gear changes, I like left AND right turns, I like chicanes.

These aren't very well represented on an oval track.

Gary.

 

[McLaren]

I'll probably give the NASCAR cars a go in GT5, just not the oval tracks. We've had the test track in GT for years now and I can't remember the last time I considered going on it. I can't think of anything in the game more boring than driving flat out constantly with just a couple of "bends" to brake the monotony. I know there's more to it than that but, be honest, there's not much more to it is there ? For me, there's not much difference between oval racing and drag racing. Neither of them challenge the entire dyamic capabilities of a car and therefore neither of them hold much interest for me.

I like accelerating\braking, I like perfecting gear changes, I like left AND right turns, I like chicanes.

These aren't very well represented on an oval track.

Gary.

Drag racing doesn't challenge the capabilities of a car?

Think you might look back into how stressful drag racing is on a car.

 

[quickben]

Drag racing doesn't challenge the capabilities of a car?

Think you might look back into how stressful drag racing is on a car.

Read my post again. I said the entire dynamics of the car.

This includes turning left and right.

 

[McLaren]

Read my post again. I said the entire dynamics of the car.

This includes turning left and right.

A car's turning capabilities rely on how its suspension & tires are setup. Those same parts are challenged in drag racing.

 

[quickben]

In a straight line . . . .

 

[McLaren]

In a straight line . . . .

It doesn't matter. All the parts that allow a car's capabilities are challenged through drag racing.

Just because you want to make a mis-informed opinion on Nascar & drag racing doesn't mean you've got a point.

 

[EamerRed]

Of course he has a point, you're just being pedantic. You know he means that those capabilities of the car aren't challenged in the way a car was intended for.

 

[quickben]

My point was that in drag racing in particular, not all of the elements of racing are present i.e cornering, braking, cornering while braking (i mean braking with disks and calipers - not popping a bit of embroidery out the back end), gear changing at the right time to maximise torque through a bend, exiting a bend at the optimum rpm, that sort of things. They're just not present.

Don't get me wrong I respect the massive power of the engines on these cars and the acceleration they can generate, but it realy is barn door engineering compared to the considerations an engineer has to take into account to design and set up a real racing car. As an engineer myself, I don't see them as being at the same level.