(POLL) Skid Recovery Force, do you think that it is necessary for the GT series?

[7HO]

You mean there's no reason for you to add unrealistic aids to dumb down an awesome car and make it easier to drive. As long as SRF isn't available in official competitions or forced on in non-official events, what difference does it make to your racing experience if someone else is using it?

Why would you want to play a driving simulator if you don't want to simulate? Why pay more for official licenses of real cars? I just don't get it. If you want a game that is kind of like driving and easy then it makes no sense to me to pay more to pretend it is something it isn't. Surely if you jump in a Ferrari you would want it to be like driving a real Ferrari not another version of the same fake car.

I'm struggling to understand what someone is trying to achieve if they are driving a car modelled off their favourite car but they have made it unrealistic and nothing like the real thing with some aid that turns it into a completely different car. And that is my point, if you don't want to drive a Ferrari then don't drive a Ferrari, drive the easy to drive car. I just think it is crazy to pretend the unrealistic easy to drive car is a Ferrari.

 

[SavageEvil]

SRF is kind of like active braking is to Forza, it's there for casuals new to the game to not rage quite at trying to handle what is normally a 3000+ lbs machine with what is akin to steering with a thimble on a toothpick. Personally I dislike SRF but the only way for PD to have casual players get into the game is a bit draconian and that would be to force you to drive slow plodding econo boxes to get them acquainted with the control breadth and depth. Casual does not simply get the hang of a simulation style driving game, in fact most folks go from lock to lock since a controller is a far cry from ideal. Anyway the reason it was forced on in many GT events is for the same reason as I stated above, thing is they should have also had a way to wean drivers off it such as lowering your speed when it activates and thus a player who wants to go fast will opt to avoid it after the come to terms with the control and handling.

It is a business decision since there are far more casuals than there are hardcore players, so they had to create an avenue for new people to get into the game. Some folks need to come off that high horse, no one is born a driving genius and it's a simulator and if you want more people interested in it you would have a way that they can get into it, unless you like being out of work or something.

I don't like SRF but I understand why it's there, I expect it to appear in one form or another in subsequent GT releases. Although I think PD really needs to state that what it does and have penalties for using it, use it to help yourself learn the basics and turn it off to really widen your skill set. There is no one approach to getting into driving games, but smart folks will attempt to widen the gateway. Just my two cents since I seriously dislike SRF being forced on me

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why would you want to play a driving simulator if you don't want to simulate? Why pay more for official licenses of real cars? I just don't get it. If you want a game that is kind of like driving and easy then it makes no sense to me to pay more to pretend it is something it isn't. Surely if you jump in a Ferrari you would want it to be like driving a real Ferrari not another version of the same fake car.

I'm struggling to understand what someone is trying to achieve if they are driving a car modelled off their favourite car but they have made it unrealistic and nothing like the real thing with some aid that turns it into a completely different car. And that is my point, if you don't want to drive a Ferrari then don't drive a Ferrari, drive the easy to drive car. I just think it is crazy to pretend the unrealistic easy to drive car is a Ferrari.

You're missing the point entirely. If a game/sim has what I want I will buy it and play it with my own personal options. That doesn't mean I want everyone else to be forced to play the same way as me. You're mistaking my view of what the game should have for optional use and the way I would use those options. So again, "as long as SRF isn't available in official competitions or forced on in non-official events, what difference does it make to your racing experience if someone else is using it?"

 

[7HO]

You're missing the point entirely. If a game/sim has what I want I will buy it and play it with my own personal options. That doesn't mean I want everyone else to be forced to play the same way as me. You're mistaking my view of what the game should have for optional use and the way I would use those options. So again, "as long as SRF isn't available in official competitions or forced on in non-official events, what difference does it make to your racing experience if someone else is using it?"

That doesn't help me understand how wanting a Lamborghini Countach to drive nothing like the real thing isn't crazy. You have missed my point, there are Supercars that have real life driving aids that make them very easy to drive and I have nothing against those cars having those aids, so if driving a early Viper is too hard you drive a Koenigsegg Agera R, now you have a car that is easy to drive and it is realistic. And this helps people really appreciate what makes each car special, this is what a true car enthusiast would want, the challenge of trying to learn how to tame a beast and the opportunity to see how amazing cars like a Veyron or Koenigsegg are with their technology.

So yes I admit I am missing your point because I can't understand why anyone would want lots of versions of the same car, that is what this approach with drivers aids does, it is unrealistic and it is lazy programming by a team who has no passion for cars or driving and doesn't care about any level of simulation. When I turn on stability control in a McLaren it should be Mclaren stability control and it should be nothing like the traction control or stability control in a GT3 car and it should be nothing like the traction control in a production Ford Falcon. Each one is unique and is an essential part of the cars character. By having standard driving aids you know that PD doesn't have realistic physics because they are not really simulating the cars you are pretending to drive. The same stability control for every car makes every car similar, turning those things off to race hardcore is also unrealistic in something like a GT3 car that actually races with aids and forms part of the cars character. And then when you turn these things off again all the cars feel very similar.

There are other approaches you can take to make the game newbie friendly and at the same time you can teach them how to drive so that they can actually drive a car without aids, then when they go to another sim like iRacing they probably wont need to try and convince themselves that iRacing is unrealistic to explain why they can't drive because they will actually be able to drive.

Perhaps this little story will add some light on why it is hard for me to understand the need for sim wrecking aids. I never had a driving lesson and I got my license early on my first attempt. I actually learned how to drive a car in a game called Race Drivin'. My first dollar disappeared without me making it up the first hill because I kept stalling the car and I quickly ran out of my first 10 dollars. As a kid I probably poured hundreds of dollars into that game but the first time I jumped into the Datsun 240z at 14 years old I didn't need anyone to teach me how to drive. And yes when I first started iRacing I struggled and I'll admit I didn't think it was me, now I know better and because of my persistence I am better.

But it would be easy to be both realistic and fake and have an easy learning curve. I'm not against fantasy cars with aids if that is an approach people think would work better if these cars are not allowed to compete in official competitions but I don't even think that is needed. I think just like learning to drive a car using challenges like GT has in the past they can ease people into the game and they can teach them what they are doing wrong and when they are over driving and teach them actual car control. I honestly don't think there is a need for these artificial aids and I think people could actually enjoy a realistic game more if it was created right.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That doesn't help me understand how wanting a Lamborghini Countach to drive nothing like the real thing isn't crazy. You have missed my point, there are Supercars that have real life driving aids that make them very easy to drive and I have nothing against those cars having those aids, so if driving a early Viper is too hard you drive a Koenigsegg Agera R, now you have a car that is easy to drive and it is realistic. And this helps people really appreciate what makes each car special, this is what a true car enthusiast would want, the challenge of trying to learn how to tame a beast and the opportunity to see how amazing cars like a Veyron or Koenigsegg are with their technology.

So yes I admit I am missing your point because I can't understand why anyone would want lots of versions of the same car, that is what this approach with drivers aids does, it is unrealistic and it is lazy programming by a team who has no passion for cars or driving and doesn't care about any level of simulation. When I turn on stability control in a McLaren it should be Mclaren stability control and it should be nothing like the traction control or stability control in a GT3 car and it should be nothing like the traction control in a production Ford Falcon. Each one is unique and is an essential part of the cars character. By having standard driving aids you know that PD doesn't have realistic physics because they are not really simulating the cars you are pretending to drive. The same stability control for every car makes every car similar, turning those things off to race hardcore is also unrealistic in something like a GT3 car that actually races with aids and forms part of the cars character. And then when you turn these things off again all the cars feel very similar.

There are other approaches you can take to make the game newbie friendly and at the same time you can teach them how to drive so that they can actually drive a car without aids, then when they go to another sim like iRacing they probably wont need to try and convince themselves that iRacing is unrealistic to explain why they can't drive because they will actually be able to drive.

Perhaps this little story will add some light on why it is hard for me to understand the need for sim wrecking aids. I never had a driving lesson and I got my license early on my first attempt. I actually learned how to drive a car in a game called Race Drivin'. My first dollar disappeared without me making it up the first hill because I kept stalling the car and I quickly ran out of my first 10 dollars. As a kid I probably poured hundreds of dollars into that game but the first time I jumped into the Datsun 240z at 14 years old I didn't need anyone to teach me how to drive. And yes when I first started iRacing I struggled and I'll admit I didn't think it was me, now I know better and because of my persistence I am better.

But it would be easy to be both realistic and fake and have an easy learning curve. I'm not against fantasy cars with aids if that is an approach people think would work better if these cars are not allowed to compete in official competitions but I don't even think that is needed. I think just like learning to drive a car using challenges like GT has in the past they can ease people into the game and they can teach them what they are doing wrong and when they are over driving and teach them actual car control. I honestly don't think there is a need for these artificial aids and I think people could actually enjoy a realistic game more if it was created right.

I'm not trying to explain to you why other people have different preferences than you or me. Perhaps one more shot at a direct answer to the question I've already asked twice and which you keep avoiding: "As long as SRF isn't available in official competitions or forced on in non-official events, what difference does it make to your racing experience if someone else is using it?"

 

[lxmmy]

Looks like their won't be an option for SRF.

 

[dissectional1]

That doesn't help me understand how wanting a Lamborghini Countach to drive nothing like the real thing isn't crazy. You have missed my point, there are Supercars that have real life driving aids that make them very easy to drive and I have nothing against those cars having those aids, so if driving a early Viper is too hard you drive a Koenigsegg Agera R, now you have a car that is easy to drive and it is realistic. And this helps people really appreciate what makes each car special, this is what a true car enthusiast would want, the challenge of trying to learn how to tame a beast and the opportunity to see how amazing cars like a Veyron or Koenigsegg are with their technology.

So you think that a kid who has no idea what a Lambo is supposed to drive like has no place driving it in a game then and should be driving a fantasy easy car because the car should be portrayed absolutely as the real deal? That kind of excludes everyone who just likes to play driving/racing games to have fun and have a shot at crusing around their favorite cars, regardless of whether they have a slight idea of what said cars actually drive like in reality or they simply like the cars for their looks, is that it?

I'll give you an example: I don't like guitar hero. But that's mostly because I actually know how to play guitar and prefer the real deal to a brunstick with buttons, but I have nothing against the people who dig that stuff. On the other hand, I love cars, always have, but I don't actually enjoy driving in real life, for lots of reasons (one being due to a shoulder injury that limits my range of motion in my left arm, which also means I get to spend way less time playing guitar as I used to) and due to some rather unpredictable hypoglycemias, which could put myself and others on the road at peril and that's honestly a responsabilty I usually prefer not to have to worry about.

Like I mentioned before, just because your life goal isn't becoming the next Fangio or Senna, you shouldn't be excluded from having fun by being forced to drive like a pro, the same way as the pros shouldn't be forced to have their experience dumbed down and their sim racing fix taken from them.

Of course most of the car design serves the functionality but do you think the main goal of the designer is the technical part? It isn't. It's about how an object looks in the first place. For a lot of people it doesn't matter how car A or B drives. It's how they look and what reactions they cause. The other aspects are just an added bonus.

And ultimately, 90 % of the people (or probably more) who play any racing game can't tell if a Lamborghini Countach on their game drives like the real deal because the majority of the humanity has never/nor will ever drive a supercar, so the only ones who could actually tell if the depiction is actually accurate would be the engineers, manufacturers, test pilots, owners of those cars or a dev team with access to the real cars and their data

 

[7HO]

I'm not trying to explain to you why other people have different preferences than you or me. Perhaps one more shot at a direct answer to the question I've already asked twice and which you keep avoiding: "As long as SRF isn't available in official competitions or forced on in non-official events, what difference does it make to your racing experience if someone else is using it?"

I did answer it but you haven't answered my query. But I'll answer it again.

As long as the game takes an approach of using non realistic drivers aids such as these and doesn't have the real systems of each car modelled then it isn't a simulation at all and the only cars that might be realistic are cars that came from the factory with no driver aids when the games aids are turned off. But since GTS isn't doing classic cars then I think it is safe to say almost no car in the game will be realistic.

But for the sake of compromise. If cars were modelled realistically with realistic systems that are copies of the real cars systems and these systems functioned in game as they do in real life where you can adjust stability control or TC the same way you can in the real car and it functions the same as in real life. Then if they wanted to add further unrealistic driving aids that come with a performance penalty like in iRacing so that people can use these unrealistic things even in competition if they choose but they will be giving away time, then I would have no issue with them.

The realistic systems are literally the easiest thing to put in a sim because they are already computer code, PD simply have to ask the manufacturers and teams for their code and if a small team like Kunos can do it PD have no excuse. But PD will not and PD will even wreck a H shifter in the name of making the game easier for people with hand held controllers. And that is why I am against these fake aids because they are put in to help make it easier for unskilled people to compete with skilled people and they are what make GT an arcade game and not a sim.

So you think that a kid who has no idea what a Lambo is supposed to drive like has no place driving it in a game then and should be driving a fantasy easy car because the car should be portrayed absolutely as the real deal? That kind of excludes everyone who just likes to play driving/racing games to have fun and have a shot at crusing around their favorite cars, regardless of whether they have a slight idea of what said cars actually drive like in reality or they simply like the cars for their looks, is that it?

I'll give you an example: I don't like guitar hero. But that's mostly because I actually know how to play guitar and prefer the real deal to a brunstick with buttons, but I have nothing against the people who dig that stuff. On the other hand, I love cars, always have, but I don't actually enjoy driving in real life, for lots of reasons (one being due to a shoulder injury that limits my range of motion in my left arm, which also means I get to spend way less time playing guitar as I used to) and due to some rather unpredictable hypoglycemias, which could put myself and others on the road at peril and that's honestly a responsabilty I usually prefer not to have to worry about.

Like I mentioned before, just because your life goal isn't becoming the next Fangio or Senna, you shouldn't be excluded from having fun by being forced to drive like a pro, the same way as the pros shouldn't be forced to have their experience dumbed down and their sim racing fix taken from them.

Of course most of the car design serves the functionality but do you think the main goal of the designer is the technical part? It isn't. It's about how an object looks in the first place. For a lot of people it doesn't matter how car A or B drives. It's how they look and what reactions they cause. The other aspects are just an added bonus

You have totally misunderstood my position. I actually said I don't think there is a need for the fantasy car and I am all for the kid driving the Lambo. If the kid drives it with an unrealistic aid he isn't driving a Lambo and if anything it is unfair on the kid and part of the reason we get to watch funny youtube videos of people crashing Supercars because they have been lied to by the games they play making them think they are good drivers or can actually drive these cars.

My position is to teach the kid how to drive the Lambo.

I wonder how many people here remember the old days of GT. You know back when Polyphony made claims that the reason for the dumbed down physics was because people couldn't drive the game if it was realistic and they were incrementally teaching people how to drive, do you remember that? Well I believe they can do that in one game and I believe in 2016 there is no longer any excuse. They need to stop making up excuses and if they can't do it it is either because they are unable or lazy. Others are doing it, smaller companies are doing it.

I am glad you brought up Guitar Hero though. Is that what you compare GT to? You see in my opinion Guitar Hero is comparable to an arcade game because that is what it is, for guitar at least, guitar hero is not a simulator. Not that I think it is a good comparison but Rocksmith is more of what I'd expect GT to be aiming for.

 

[jubeiiiii246]

I usllay turn on ABS at one and SRF on but everything else off. I think SRF helps.But I use it now because I use a wheel now and I hate it when I spin out.

 

[dissectional1]

I totally get your point. I can't really compare Guitar hero to GT, that was just an example, regarding differences in taste. and yeah if the point there is the simulation then the comparison term would be Gocksmith as it is a learning tool as well as a game. Yeah I remember the old GT's. I was just pointing out that for a lot of people the intention is just the sheer fun. Sure some of us want to get the closest to the real feeling as we could, and maybe learn from the experience, but I think for most, total accuracy isn't the main thing.
I believe, as I've stated on an earlier comment, if GT was 100 % faithful to it's slogan it wouldn't be so popular. Some compromises must be made in order to accomodate a broader array of tastes. If it became a full blown sim, it would lose most of it's appeal.
There has to be a balance: It should have the stuff that hardcore racers can sink their teeth into but also have options to make it enjoyable for novice or casual gamers

 

[7HO]

Yeah sure compromises can be made, after all it is a game so we can do things that can't be done in real life. Looking at Rocksmith as an example, you can go and learn a song incrementally and when you a bored of that you can play fun games that still teach you fundamental skills. Of course I have put no thought into this at all so anyone who did could come up with some great ideas but driving through an obstacle course with a virtual instructor who is pointing out your mistakes and telling you how you can improve is a realistic way to rapidly help people. An instructor can help a noob learn iRacing quickly just by pointing out what they are doing wrong and usually it starts with over driving. My son had the benifit of me being by his side when he first joined iRacing and other than having a few goes previously in my rig he had virtually no sim driving experience and no real world experience, with me giving him instruction he quickly won a race and got his licence up to B in no time so he could race GT3 with me proving that it is easy and anyone can do it. I have helped plenty of strangers on the other side of the planet shave seconds off their lap times and I am nothing special.

So you are tired of driving tuition through a marked course, how about some games? Ken block style drift practice but now there are inputs on screen that you are trying to match like pedal inputs for example and you get a score for when you match them and it gets harder the higher your score gets to match them until you crash but when you match them this is actually the correct inputs for drifting in a circle and you are actually learning muscle memory and how to balance the cars with the pedal inputs. As you progress other inputs can be added and games like these can be added just like in Rocksmith to teach people how to drive even with a controller.

Then the person can take their new improved skills into that difficult car and feel accomplished when they nail that fast lap.

 

[dissectional1]

I found the idea behind Rocksmith extremely cool. It's a shame the usb cable is so damn hard to find in some places though. There's one thing I'd change on it though: You shouldn't be practically forced to change your tunning in order to accompany certain songs, provided you know how to play them arranged for the tunning you usually enploy. this is useful when you're short of instruments, but I get that from the teaching standpoint it's the correct approach as it prevents some confusion.

Thing should always have a certain progression, but allow players to find their own pace. Back in the first GT's assists didn't seem to get in the way of things and more often than not in certain situations they didn't seem to be of much assistance at all.

On the PS3 GT's some license tests are excruciatingly hard to take with assists (TCS can turn a fast car into an almost snail like creature. add a heavy weight and massive understeer a la Veyron and it becomes a real drag)

 

[ynot]

You mean there's no reason for you to add unrealistic aids to dumb down an awesome car and make it easier to drive. As long as SRF isn't available in official competitions or forced on in non-official events, what difference does it make to your racing experience if someone else is using it?

Agree

Why would you want to play a driving simulator if you don't want to simulate? Why pay more for official licenses of real cars? I just don't get it. If you want a game that is kind of like driving and easy then it makes no sense to me to pay more to pretend it is something it isn't. Surely if you jump in a Ferrari you would want it to be like driving a real Ferrari not another version of the same fake car.

I'm struggling to understand what someone is trying to achieve if they are driving a car modelled off their favourite car but they have made it unrealistic and nothing like the real thing with some aid that turns it into a completely different car. And that is my point, if you don't want to drive a Ferrari then don't drive a Ferrari, drive the easy to drive car. I just think it is crazy to pretend the unrealistic easy to drive car is a Ferrari.

Because its a video game

I love the discussion here, so many opinions of one option in the game. Just shows what a job PD, or any other game maker has, of trying to please the vast majority of the world so they can sell as many copies as they can. They should put as many options and driving aids as they can in it. Just have the ability to turn on and off what you want to make the game how you like to play it. It's more than just a racing game. It's making friends, chatting, and having some good times racing. Let each person set it up so they are competitive and can have fun. I had an 11 year old join our lobby the other day. He was having a blast and not even really good. No aids and he would have probably turned the thing off and never played it again.

 

[eran0004]

Sim cars should have realistic aids based on the real life car. The moment you use an unrealistic aid to be able to drive the car you are not driving the car so it doesn't matter what the model is or what badge is on it. There will always be entry level cars to develop skills and if these are still not easy enough for people then make a fantasy entry level car but there is no reason to add unrealistic aids to dumb down an awesome car and make it easier to drive.

There is a reason: making it easier to drive for those who find that it's too difficult.

Is that dumbing it down? What makes you think that the simulation is perfect without these aids? And what about playing without a FFB wheel, should that be prohibited as it's dumbing down the control of the car? What about VR, should that be mandatory as it would dumb down the design of these cars if you only experienced it in 2D?

The only thing you'd achieve by that is exclusion.

 

[Robbks]

The main crux of the argument that needs to be focused on is that SRF needs to take energy away from somewhere to be fair and a useful aid.
It needs to reduce braking or accelerating forces by the same amount that it's helping control lateral or rotational forces.

If it did that it would be fair, and the rubbish drivers that need it on would be overall slower, but tidier through corners, to allow clean racing around them.

It's not rocket science. Just simple physics.

 

[ynot]

There is a reason: making it easier to drive for those who find that it's too difficult.

Is that dumbing it down? What makes you think that the simulation is perfect without these aids? And what about playing without a FFB wheel, should that be prohibited as it's dumbing down the control of the car? What about VR, should that be mandatory as it would dumb down the design of these cars if you only experienced it in 2D?

The only thing you'd achieve by that is exclusion.

Agree

There is nothing you can do to make it drive like a real car. Nothing. So let people play it like they want. They buy a game for their pleasure. That's why I like the ability to set up a lobby the way you want so you can play with other players wanting the same options as you do.

Looks like their won't be an option for SRF.

Not a fan of braking and steering assist but the new and younger players will like it. Project Cars has it. I did not know it was on by default and was wondering why it was steering weird. It wasn't until I got a phone call and slowed way down that I noticed it was making the turns by itself. Once off it handled much better. Not a big fan of the game though.

 

[Bigbazz]

SFR was an abomination, it was a system that rewarded poor driving with faster lap times and that should never be in the game. I'm fine with stability/traction control and ABS etc, they aren't offering performance advantages by increasing the tyre grip beyond the base maximum.

You had those events with it on and you just launch it into corners to try to generate as much cornering force as possible to make use of the extra grip it provided when you pushed the tyres past their limits.. It was some Need For Speed abomination system that turned those events into a joke.

If anything it was one of the things that had me lose interest in GT6, because they forced this thing on in many events. GT6 was in many ways the end of my real interest in Gran Turismo, so much better out there unless your main concern is taking nice pictures of cars.

 

[daan]

@ynot Please don't multi post. Use the +quote feature, or the edit button, in future. Thanks.

Agree

Agree

We have a like button so you don't have to make posts like these.

 

[FPV MIC]

The main crux of the argument that needs to be focused on is that SRF needs to take energy away from somewhere to be fair and a useful aid.
It needs to reduce braking or accelerating forces by the same amount that it's helping control lateral or rotational forces.

If it did that it would be fair, and the rubbish drivers that need it on would be overall slower, but tidier through corners, to allow clean racing around them.

It's not rocket science. Just simple physics.

^^^This makes sense^^^
Doesn't exclude anyone and doesn't reward anyone for poor driving. So so simple.

 

[SavageEvil]

Are folks just arguing for arguing sake? I mean what other reason to include than to make the game easier for non drivers to give it a go and not turn off the game in frustration due to inability to remain oriented and on the course, I mean a driving game is 98% driving and if that part is impossible why play at all? Contrary to popular train of thought or belief Gran Turismo is a product that requires countless man hours to produce and more to market and sell, deliberately making the bar of entry to the product high is a foolhardy endeavor and one that would get a business manager sacked.

Now to debate SRF, it is ok to include it but as it is an unrealistic and unusual aid which have only benefits there has to be a penalty imposed upon it. There the whole SRF argument squashed, optional and comes with penalties. You want to introduce players to the game as many as possible and word of mouth will destroy you if people associated your driving game with being inaccessible the core of the game driving is impossible to do. Yes that sounds like a great bit of word of mouth a driving game developer wants reaching the ears of the masses.

So in interest of realism, it's still an unrealistic addition but it has a purpose. PD should have outlined what it was and what it is for and also advise against using it once you become acclimated with the handling of the cars. When SRF was introduced it was roughly explained but that's it, players found out what it was and lost their minds after PD forced it upon many a seasonal. Only after time we understood it was to make the game more accessible to players who aren't fluent in digital car control in sim heavy environments. Hopefully someone with a greater thought process will define all of GT's options so the knee jerk folks can not fall over themselves overreacting to with shoddy information.

TL;DR PD added SRF to make GT more accessible to the masses. PD screwed up by not saying so in the first place and forcing SRF in seasonals led to angry protesters. Angry protester include some who feel as if learning to play the game the hard way is a viable tactic, like old men they need to figure out that sort of thought has no relevance in a world where hundreds of jobs are rely on consumer engagement and if you fail to engage the consumer on many points as possible consider your product dead in the water. This is business and we get pleasure out of it, but someone has to bills to pay so they are not wrong in their stance and inclusion of said offending mechanic, just not very forthright with their explanations, which need to be addressed.

 

[7HO]

Are folks just arguing for arguing sake? I mean what other reason to include than to make the game easier for non drivers to give it a go and not turn off the game in frustration due to inability to remain oriented and on the course, I mean a driving game is 98% driving and if that part is impossible why play at all? Contrary to popular train of thought or belief Gran Turismo is a product that requires countless man hours to produce and more to market and sell, deliberately making the bar of entry to the product high is a foolhardy endeavor and one that would get a business manager sacked.

Now to debate SRF, it is ok to include it but as it is an unrealistic and unusual aid which have only benefits there has to be a penalty imposed upon it. There the whole SRF argument squashed, optional and comes with penalties. You want to introduce players to the game as many as possible and word of mouth will destroy you if people associated your driving game with being inaccessible the core of the game driving is impossible to do. Yes that sounds like a great bit of word of mouth a driving game developer wants reaching the ears of the masses.

So in interest of realism, it's still an unrealistic addition but it has a purpose. PD should have outlined what it was and what it is for and also advise against using it once you become acclimated with the handling of the cars. When SRF was introduced it was roughly explained but that's it, players found out what it was and lost their minds after PD forced it upon many a seasonal. Only after time we understood it was to make the game more accessible to players who aren't fluent in digital car control in sim heavy environments. Hopefully someone with a greater thought process will define all of GT's options so the knee jerk folks can not fall over themselves overreacting to with shoddy information.

TL;DR PD added SRF to make GT more accessible to the masses. PD screwed up by not saying so in the first place and forcing SRF in seasonals led to angry protesters. Angry protester include some who feel as if learning to play the game the hard way is a viable tactic, like old men they need to figure out that sort of thought has no relevance in a world where hundreds of jobs are rely on consumer engagement and if you fail to engage the consumer on many points as possible consider your product dead in the water. This is business and we get pleasure out of it, but someone has to bills to pay so they are not wrong in their stance and inclusion of said offending mechanic, just not very forthright with their explanations, which need to be addressed.

GT Sport is a very different title to the other GT titles and regardless of performance loss SRF really has no place in it. It is likely this title will not sell in high numbers, it is possible that this will be the lowest selling title of GT ever released but even then if this title sells over 1 million as I said in a previous comment in another thread this will be one of the most significant things that has ever happened to sim racing.

Maybe it was a bad idea to even add the GT name to it because that has caused some confusion and no doubt people will buy it thinking it is the next GT. GT Sport isn't like the numbered series, GT Sport is an iRacing clone on consoles except it will have GT physics and it will have less realistic features but it will have more players and a far superior driver preparation system made up of a driver training system that iRacing doesn't have and a superior licensing system and on top of that I have my fingers crossed that from what I have read the matchmaking rating system will also be superior.

Because GT Sport is a serious online racer only, SRF has no place but PD have focussed on a better feature. A driver training and licensing system to prepare people to compete. Ultimately you will not be racing against AI so ultimately how good you are will not impact you ability to have fun as long as the matchmaking system is a strong one and with the large console membership what you should find if the matchmaking system works is that you are always matched in a race with drivers of similar skill which should provide great battles and nail biting racing. If you finish a race covered in sweat then you know it was a good one.

Unfortunately as I said some people will buy this game and then realise it isn't what they were looking for. Some of those may fall in love with it and the hope is that this game will create a new generation of sim racers. I can tell you that is PD get the elements in this game right the new fanbois of this type of game will argue why it is better than the other racing games out there because racing against AI does not compare at all to real racing and good online racing is real racing.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Maybe it was a bad idea to even add the GT name to it because that has caused some confusion and no doubt people will buy it thinking it is the next GT. GT Sport isn't like the numbered series, GT Sport is an iRacing clone on consoles except it will have GT physics and it will have less realistic features but it will have more players and a far superior driver preparation system made up of a driver training system that iRacing doesn't have and a superior licensing system and on top of that I have my fingers crossed that from what I have read the matchmaking rating system will also be superior.

We know almost nothing about the driver preparation system or matchmaking yet you are claiming it's far superior to iRacing. If you have some links to the intricate details I'd love to see them as I'm sure everyone else would. If GT comes up with something even half as relevant and useful as this I'd be shocked:

 

[7HO]

We know almost nothing about the driver preparation system or matchmaking yet you are claiming it's far superior to iRacing. If you have some links to the intricate details I'd love to see them as I'm sure everyone else would. If GT comes up with something even half as relevant and useful as this I'd be shocked:

From the GT Sport website.
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/driving/
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/sport_mode/

The joy of improving and advancing for everyone
The Campaign Mode of Gran Turismo Sport is a large scale offline content that provides a hands-on experience to allow even beginners to learn driving skills from scratch. They will eventually improve to a level where they can participate in major race events.
Beginner’s School
From basic skills such as hitting the brakes and how to turn into a corner, fundamentals can be learned from the bottom up, which will prove invaluable for newcomers to driving games.
Mission Challenge
As you work your way through short missions, you will automatically pick up fundamental driving skills without even realizing it. In the end, you will have a level of skill that will allow you to participate in major race events.
Circuit Experience
Through actual experience on a race track, you will step into the true world of high-performance driving. Use the knowledge of track layouts learned in the mission challenges to pick up the basics of how to conquer a race course.
Race Etiquette
In online, as well as real races, etiquette on the track is as important as performance. Learn the rules of etiquette and sportsmanship that’s required in all player-vs-player races. Even if you’re not a top driver with lots of confidence in your skill, you will still have plenty of fun because each player will be matched fairly with people of their own level for fair and equal online racing.
Enjoy the game with a play style that suits you best
The concept of sports isn’t restricted to only the top players who try to dominate their field. Rather, it’s meant for anyone who finds an activity they enjoy and then works to improve at it in a quest to meet or surpass their potential. Introducing a sportsmanship point system evaluating online race behavior, a player’s skill and behavior will be judged in daily races, and players with the same level will be matched in a fair manner.

From Kaz himself
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-25-gran-turismo-sport-is-a-fascinating-antiquity

"For the daily online races, there's going to be a system that's judging the players," says Yamauchi. "A system can't always make the judgments that a human being can. So say you had a crash at one corner - who was at fault? If it was a human being, you could make the judgement. When it's a computer system, no matter how much physics data you have, it's hard to judge. In that case, you really have to make it so both are at fault for the incident. What that entails is a player's sportsmanship rating will drop. Both sides will try to avoid incidents like that."

iRacing doesn't have a driver preparation system other than videos and telling you to read the sporting code, also iRacing is very difficult to find the limited and poorly organised information that it does provide compared to an easy to use GT menu and progression system, that is why we have a need for sites like edracing. So what we know about GTS is already superior in this regard.

As far as matchmaking goes I didn't say it was superior, I said I have my fingers crossed from what I have read that it will be superior. Not that it will be hard to be better than iRacings match making system as it is very flawed as argued over in many threads on iRacing and even Tony Gardner has said that he would like to implement suggestions that have been made in the forum but it is not a priority for them at this stage.

But just based on the above we can see that Sportsmanship Rating or SR will actually form part of the matchmaking process which is immediately a step up from iRacings matchmaking in my opinion. Of course we see no other mention of something similar to iRating and from what we can read it would seem that they have the crazy idea of only using SR as a splitting system but common sense says surely this isn't the case so for now I will imagine that PD are not insane and there will be a combined approach using both SR and a driver rating system that takes performance into account for splitting. Or perhaps they will be true to real life and actually use qualifying, imagine that

So if GT was my baby this is how I would do it. Certain parts of the offline campaign would form part of the Sportsmanship Rating and the less of it you have done the lower your SR will be when you begin online racing. From that point SR would divide drivers into bands and you would only be matched against people in your bands. Then within the bands I would use either qualifying or a performance rating system like IR to split people. Either way for the point of driver scoring for championship purposes I would take a page out of the leagues book and the score would be first based on finishing position but then reduced by incidents in the race. Likewise if I had a driver rating like IR it would also be adjusted by incidents. Because I am sure that GT will not have a strong collision or damage model I think this approach is required to ensure high driving standards and prevent bump and run type passing. As long as the penalty for a contact is greater than the gain for the extra position most people will generally try and avoid the bump and run tactic.

With such systems I do feel that the driver rating system would then be better than qualifying to split people within their own bands because even though qualifying is more realistic to what we see in real life in real life we do not see a single race split into 50 individual races and using qualifying times for this purpose could see top drivers not make the top race. But a driver rating system would be based on consistent performance and that would put the top drivers where they belong eventually.

For now what we know about GTS is it will have a splitting system that takes into account SR for the purpose of matchmaking and we know it will also be a serious esports entry with a global competition with serious prizes so they will also need systems in place to make sure that drivers are ranked based on their performance and that the correct drivers do progress to race each other in finals. And that logic is what gives me some faith that SR is not the only factor that determines splits because as much as people should be matched against others based on their sportsmanship levels they also need to be challenged for racing to be fun and anyone can stay out of trouble if they are put into races that present them with no real competition and they can simply stay out in front away from danger.

 

[Johnnypenso]

From the GT Sport website.
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/driving/
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/sport_mode/



From Kaz himself
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-25-gran-turismo-sport-is-a-fascinating-antiquity



iRacing doesn't have a driver preparation system other than videos and telling you to read the sporting code, also iRacing is very difficult to find the limited and poorly organised information that it does provide compared to an easy to use GT menu and progression system, that is why we have a need for sites like edracing. So what we know about GTS is already superior in this regard.

As far as matchmaking goes I didn't say it was superior, I said I have my fingers crossed from what I have read that it will be superior. Not that it will be hard to be better than iRacings match making system as it is very flawed as argued over in many threads on iRacing and even Tony Gardner has said that he would like to implement suggestions that have been made in the forum but it is not a priority for them at this stage.

But just based on the above we can see that Sportsmanship Rating or SR will actually form part of the matchmaking process which is immediately a step up from iRacings matchmaking in my opinion. Of course we see no other mention of something similar to iRating and from what we can read it would seem that they have the crazy idea of only using SR as a splitting system but common sense says surely this isn't the case so for now I will imagine that PD are not insane and there will be a combined approach using both SR and a driver rating system that takes performance into account for splitting. Or perhaps they will be true to real life and actually use qualifying, imagine that

So if GT was my baby this is how I would do it. Certain parts of the offline campaign would form part of the Sportsmanship Rating and the less of it you have done the lower your SR will be when you begin online racing. From that point SR would divide drivers into bands and you would only be matched against people in your bands. Then within the bands I would use either qualifying or a performance rating system like IR to split people. Either way for the point of driver scoring for championship purposes I would take a page out of the leagues book and the score would be first based on finishing position but then reduced by incidents in the race. Likewise if I had a driver rating like IR it would also be adjusted by incidents. Because I am sure that GT will not have a strong collision or damage model I think this approach is required to ensure high driving standards and prevent bump and run type passing. As long as the penalty for a contact is greater than the gain for the extra position most people will generally try and avoid the bump and run tactic.

With such systems I do feel that the driver rating system would then be better than qualifying to split people within their own bands because even though qualifying is more realistic to what we see in real life in real life we do not see a single race split into 50 individual races and using qualifying times for this purpose could see top drivers not make the top race. But a driver rating system would be based on consistent performance and that would put the top drivers where they belong eventually.

For now what we know about GTS is it will have a splitting system that takes into account SR for the purpose of matchmaking and we know it will also be a serious esports entry with a global competition with serious prizes so they will also need systems in place to make sure that drivers are ranked based on their performance and that the correct drivers do progress to race each other in finals. And that logic is what gives me some faith that SR is not the only factor that determines splits because as much as people should be matched against others based on their sportsmanship levels they also need to be challenged for racing to be fun and anyone can stay out of trouble if they are put into races that present them with no real competition and they can simply stay out in front away from danger.

I ask for "intricate details" and you gave me the marketing spiel. "Wow, this is going to be great and you're going to have so much fun" doesn't tell me how the driver rating system or matchmaking works. It could be awesome, it could be total crap or it could be anything in between. Until I see the details or learn from the experiences of others, I remain skeptical. We'll have to wait for more details.

 

[7HO]

Why do you need the intricate details. I'm pretty sure what you can see already included in GTS is clearly better preparation for driving in GT than videos.

Do you think the videos iRacing provides prepare a new driver for iRacing better than the GT License tests prepare a new driver for GT? I'm pretty sure the answer is obvious. I really don't think we need to know more about the driver preparation system as it is pretty clear from what we have seen, even if it is just a incremental improvement over the licensing system we have seen in the past this is still better than a few videos.

And yes we don't know how they will implement the matchmaking systems and I have said this repeatedly. The success of this game will no doubt depend on the implementation of these systems. I'm not sure why you would expect me to have intricate details when I have made it clear repeatedly that we don't know how these will be implemented and that implementation could make or break the game.

 

[ynot]

Unfortunately as I said some people will buy this game and then realise it isn't what they were looking for.

This is what happened to me with Star Wars Battelfront, Project Cars, and countless other games.

Maybe it was a bad idea to even add the GT name to it because that has caused some confusion and no doubt people will buy it thinking it is the next GT. GT Sport isn't like the numbered series, GT Sport is an iRacing clone

In this video the hosts say Kaz said you could call it GT7. If you start watching at 14:40 you will catch it. Good video. Talks about some things that were not mentioned much in other videos I have seen.

 

[7HO]

This is what happened to me with Star Wars Battelfront, Project Cars, and countless other games.



In this video the hosts say Kaz said you could call it GT7. If you start watching at 14:40 you will catch it. Good video. Talks about some things that were not mentioned much in other videos I have seen.

I've seen the video and I know that was what the hosts said but as they kept talking I started to wonder if it was a misunderstanding.

For me this is better than GT7 as I genuinely have no interest in GT7 or even the GT series at all but this game has really got my attention and I hope it is good. To me this is what a sim racing game should be and if PD can't pull it off correctly I want to see someone else have a shot. They could even leave out scapes and I wouldn't care.

For a long time I have wondered about what my dream sim would be and I think I'm closer to understanding what it would be now because of this title.

• It would have all the worlds greatest tracks accurately modelled from laser scans.
• It would have GT3
• It would have a Viper GT3-R
• It would be an online racing simulator
• It would have a massive active membership
• It would be a subscription service with all content included in the service so that it was continually improved.
• It would have realistic physics
• It would have a driver development feature
• It would have dynamic everything and perfectly model real racing in the real world.
• It would have realistic damage and collision
• It would have the ability to test and practice
• Races would be realistic in length and format
• It must be in cockpit view but for those racing with TV's or monitor there would be FOV adjustment and virtual mirror as well as a relative position display
• It would have a matchmaking system that works
• It would have a protest system
• It would have interesting championships and around the clock racing.
• It would be on console
• It would be a mainstream esport with massive prizes.

It seems to me that I want iRacing and this GTS announcement to have a baby.

 

[Imari]

Do you think the videos iRacing provides prepare a new driver for iRacing better than the GT License tests prepare a new driver for GT? I'm pretty sure the answer is obvious.

Very obvious. The iRacing videos provide real driving techniques and useful examples, whereas the GT licenses check whether you can push the accelerator followed by the brake in an appropriate amount of time to meet an arbitrary time limit.

One provides useful advice and tips for racing, the other checks whether your controller and fingers function.

 

[7HO]

Very obvious. The iRacing videos provide real driving techniques and useful examples, whereas the GT licenses check whether you can push the accelerator followed by the brake in an appropriate amount of time to meet an arbitrary time limit.

One provides useful advice and tips for racing, the other checks whether your controller and fingers function.

One says you should do it like this, the other gets you to practice repetitively until you know how to do it.

As I said elsewhere with the focus on Sportsmanship it is very likely the reason GTS is leaving out the standard single player progression is because this taught people to drive dirty previously. In races with AI it was always quicker to lean on cars or use them as brakes. Even in tests that failed you for hard hits often when you got gold there was some form of contact involved. I even checked Youtube just to make sure I wasn't remembering this incorrectly and sure enough in the very first gold videos I watched there was contact.

So I imagine the campaign that GTS now has the focus will be on no contact at all. As PD have already shown their training will also include instructional videos but it will also include practice and the practice is something iRacing doesn't have.

So in the past the training prepared you you try and complete the game but the focus has now changed so I'm confident the focus of the training will be on Sportmanship and real driving skills. And that is what they have said the training will do.

Also what are GTS credits for? I would be surprised if GTS gave you instant gratification, I'm thinking GTS will force everyone to go through the training. On iRacing they say hey we have some videos we hope you watch them and many do not and they ask you if you read the sporting code and many just lie and also did not. So even if someone does what they are supposed to do, their training ends with here are the rules and here are some tips, have fun! And many do not have fun because they are not ready.

But as I have said repeatedly that's if they get it right which remains to be seen. This time they are not promising the Universe, their promises are far more modest and achievable but they will still be difficult to get right. But until I see a reason to be properly disappointed I am going to stay as positive as possible in the hope that GTS turns out to be the Droid I am looking for.

 

[Imari]

One says you should do it like this, the other gets you to practice repetitively until you know how to do it.

The difference being that the things that GT teaches you are how to go, stop, and go around various types of corners.

Frankly, anyone above the age of four can probably figure that stuff out by themselves just by driving. At best it gives a venue for practising car control, which can also be practised in arcade mode or any race. What people can't figure out by themselves are advanced driving techniques and racecraft, which is what the iRacing videos give.

If you haven't watched them you should, because they're a hell of a lot more relevant to someone going into their first online race than any of the GT6 licenses will ever be.