Project R

  • Thread starter Mr Latte
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Where are we with the ProjectR, any news?

Well when I look at what Ive spent on hardware towards the project in the last 2 months that amount would of easily covered the materials/build required to finish it. Some of you may be thinking, Latte you will never get this finished...

New Clubsports will arrive next week as will LED lighting to allow me to come up with some ideas for the final build.

Due to the circumstances happening in the business premises/decorating and relocation of storeroom stock etc it is holding back me being able to carpet/decorate the area this cockpit will be. Im having to work around the space I have at the moment. I can do nothing more to the cockpit to I get the area at least carpeted to move the base platform. So again that then engages the crazy part of me to "upgrade previous hardware ideas".

I think this whole thread is about how "one thing leads to another" certainly Im a great example of that. Next week I will be doing the testing to determine if I stick with triple monitors or decide to go the projector route. Each would require a complete different solution regards the cockpits front end and supports. So again we find that the hardware is determining the final configuration/build of the cockpit itself and that is decided by the delays or in this case the inability to actually continue the build until the room/area is suitable.

We have already a few other members @ GT Planet considering the 3x Projectors or already own them. I see that happening for the benefits it brings but its now quite affordable compared to previous years. Triple 19" TFT quality monitors back in FM1 timeframe were a similar cost. Or you could still to this day easily blow £1500-£2000+ on a new yet large highend 3DTV eg Panasonic/Sony.

Additionally for a project like this. Is it any crazier to spend approx £500 on a projector than it is for a steering wheel? With £2000+ already invested into audio/tactile then approx £1700 into triple projection. For a project thats always been about "being extreme" is it perhaps justified that the "video/visual" experience is in relation to the "extremeness" as the tactile and audio one? Really what my end goal is, in having a very highend yet unique "gaming experience" and 3x 3D PJs Vs 3x 24" monitors makes them fade into comparison even with the option for a single large screen experince via 1x PJ.

Now see how my own "inner demons" are already trying to talk myself into just going for the 3x PJs, further delaying the full build but making it ever more amazing.

I dont want to look back when this IS completed with regrets, you get me guys?
 
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In regard to projectors vs monitors... it seems to me that the answer is really in which provides the maximum visual bandwidth consistent with the view from the drivers seat of an automobile. Without having any hard data, it seems to me that monitors of the correct size, positioned at the correct distance will provide the greatest bandwidth simulating the view from an automobile. In addition I think monitors provide a higher photon flux then do projectors which rely on reflection as oppossed to direct transmission.
 
What you mean by "maximum visual bandwidth"?

Yes monitors may have some image benefits but then theirs annother issue, so far most 3d monitors suck with crosstalk / lag or brightness issues. The monitors I have are reasonable at best, nothing special and only 2D of course. If anything the quality of the GT750 projector is surprisingly good and very bright with it's high lumens and contrast.

I will do some experimenting with sizes when this friend brings his projector over.
 
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I can's speak to the relative quality of the 3D effect produced by monitors vs projector systems.

My comments were more a reflection of the size, distance and pixel density of the two approaches. It is not crystalized in my mind but it comes from my experiences in photography, which in effect the reverse of display systems. Quality of image is based on pixel count, pixel quality and the lense used to achieve the desired field of view (FOV).

On the display side it seems to me that maximizing the pixel count in a field of view that simulates an automobile would give the most immersive experience. As an example the field of view from the front windscreen of my car is approximately 46" wide, 28" high and approximately 30" from my eyes.

My comments simply reflected that most closely simulating this FOV will generate the most immersive experience and that it would most likely be achieved by monitors as oppossed to projectors.
 
Pixel density?

If a game outputs in native 720p then really regardless of the scale of the image it is displayed on the native pixel resolution is no different. Upscaling to 1080p from a 720p source wont make things really any better. Im struggling to understand this bandwidth term you used is all.

Basically in plain english your commenting that the best result like what I have been quering is to try and have a realistic scale so that the triple display matches closely to the scale of a real car for added simulation. Thats why in the past Ive recommended that triple displays are around 24"-32" which would probably achieve a fairly accurate scale of course dependant on the seating/viewing distance.

Thats the thing though, does a "simulated realisic scale" triple display configuration produce a more entertaining or enjoyable result compared to bigger screens?

I wonder for people that have done triple projection or 3x Large HDTV what their thoughts are. Is fun/factor of larger displays size more enjoyable/entertaining or preferred over trying to achieve a smaller but more accurate and realistic sense of scale?
 
Mr. Latte, did you get the pm with the wiring diagram i sent you, will it help?
 
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I'm looking into triple something for PC mainly. Maybe Xbox 360 later on, since purchasing three Xboxes would be a hassle right now. I could easily use three sheet's of paper for a projector right?

Also, for a projector, I would like HDMI capability, 1080P, and have it under $1000. What options would I have?

Would three HD monitors be more cost effective versus projectors? I'm talking around 24', to 30'?
 
I'm looking into triple something for PC mainly. Maybe Xbox 360 later on, since purchasing three Xboxes would be a hassle right now. I could easily use three sheet's of paper for a projector right?

Also, for a projector, I would like HDMI capability, 1080P, and have it under $1000. What options would I have?

Would three HD monitors be more cost effective versus projectors? I'm talking around 24', to 30'?

I own a very nice 1080p projector and don't have a triple screen setup of any kind (yet... working on it). The projector is very large and dramatic and I love having it, but it's a different experience from having triples. It's still a single 1920 x 1080 display vs the equivalent of 5760 x 1080 spread across three displays. That's a lot more information at your disposal. Triple screens may also be more cost effective, especially factoring in running costs.

There are some decent 1080p projectors around the $1000 range, like the Mitsubishi HC4000 or the Epson 8350 (and also previous generation or refurb models if you shop around). You can use a white wall or blackout cloth, but you're much better off investing at last a couple of hundred for an entry level screen. Keep in mind replacement bulbs go for about $250-$300 and are good for around 2000-2500 hours typically. If you race a lot and/or use the screen for movies (why wouldn't you!?) it could add up.

Decent 24" 1080p monitors can go for about $200-$300 depending on brand, panel, etc. You'll also want to make sure you have a couple of (typically) capable video cards to drive all three screens. Beyond that, there's not a lot in the way of running costs.

Installation has its issues with both technologies. A projector works best in a dark room with dark surfaces. Cheaper projectors often lack flexible zoom and lens shift options (keystone correction is not the solution) so correct screen and projector placement are critical. Setting up triple screens has its own issues, including height, angle, overlap, and software tweaking.

Neither solution is perfect so you probably want to have both. :sly:
 
^Excellent right up! After Christmas time I should have the funds to go down to CompUSA and Fry's and have a look at what they have in store. First things first, iRacing subscription, home built PC, and then come the big things like triple screens.
 
^ I have a sneeking suspicion you may be considering a *new steering wheel soon as well.


Guys check out DAYTONA USA!!! (Xbox Live) also on PSN (Nov UK)








Daytona USA is so much fun and brings back fond memories. It will be one game used to form part of my own review/comparison of the CSR Elite to other wheels. Currently testing as part of Fanatec's beta program.

* No comments will be made until the appropiate time and embargo is lifted. A substantial comparison report will be forthcoming. 👍
 
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Well the new set of Clubsports arrived.
Im going to enjoy comparing to one another and seeing which pedals I prefer.

While there is nothing shown here that hasnt been seen before. I've been waiting ages to see a similar photo to this showing both "Clubsport Pedals & CSR Elite Pedals" side by side and well maybe some of you guys have too.

 
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Wow! Signed up to GTPlanet just to get involved in this!!!

Mr Latte, you are indeed crazy! in a good way. I thought, and close friends and family think, i am crazy with my rig ambitions, but you sir are on another level!

WARNING: i got carried away, ok, i'm sorry, it wont happen again.

Anyway, i found a link to this thread from InsideSimRacing last night. I was up until 1:30am reading through it all. flippin ek. I was knackered when i got to the end, if you can call it the end! You could probably sell the film rights to this little mission of yours! (well, maybe not) I read with eager anticipation as things progressesed. It was with good humour that i read the earlier posts discussing the exclusion of triple screens in the game, knowling full well how that turned out! :) you must have been overjoyed when they announced it. (That said, still no LAN play!)

I think we're pretty similar in some respects, although your technical knowledge when it comes to sound is more than likely a little more advanced than mine at the moment. (I'll get to it in a minute, but its really my interest in the tactile side of things that brought me to this thread)

Your rig certainly looks like it's going to be the showpiece you intend it to be, and i'm sure that when the unitiated take a seat, they will be blown away with the experience. I assume you're not planning on keeping it all to yourself now!

I'm slowly working on a set up that is aiming to give the best experience possible, but at the same time remaining mobile, to the extent i can pack it up relatively quickly, stick it in the back of a car and take it somewhere and set it back up, again, relatively quickly. Like you, i kind of based all of this ambition on GT5, which i presumed would be awsome. I got given the game as a gift when it came out but held off playing it until recently as i felt my set up wouldn't do it justice; my set up being defined by the fact i would still be using a dual shock controller! I'm a veteran of all previous GT games but never had the opportunity to sort out a proper set up.

I say that i'm at phase 2.5 of my project. How many phases are there? Hmmm, i'd say 6!!

Bezel = Devil, so i went with a 3 projector set up. i got hold of 3 Acer H5360's on special offer at pc world. Possible not the best place for a good deal but i was in the mood to make a purchase, the reviews were good, the price was good (£430 each i think) and the fact i could get 3 identical new units was very desirable. As 3 makeshift screens (possibly remain part of final project) i went to hobbycraft and purchased 3 plain canvases. I dont know the dimensions right now, but they are pretty big, just about got them in the back of the car.

So having a quick play with the alignment, with various bits of kit propped up with whatever i could find, i had a pretty much borderless 3 screen set up. Getting the actual in game aligment options set up properly is something i'll do later (screen curvature)

My aim is to have all the gubbins (PS3's, Amps and Projectors) in a unit that will sit behind the seat, and rise above the seat so that the projectors are overhead. If you can imagine an F1 air intake with the little spoilers coming out the side and the driver sat in front of it. The acers are pretty cool bits of kits. They have auto sensing inversion. So with them placed above the drivers head, if left in the standard position, the image would be very high, too high above the natural line of sight, unless you tilted the unit down. But then you would need veritcal keystone correction, which is possible (again an auto feature) but not ideal. It's therefore just a simple case of inverting the projector. Now the image, rather than shining out and up, is shining out and down, and so long as its high enough to get over the drivers head and the beam not be broken by the wheel, you've got an image presented more at the line of sight.

The Acers throw distance is not great and the manaul zoom is pretty poor to be fair, so the placement of the units is key. However, placing them behind the driver allows for a bigger image without needing additional space at the front of the rig to get the screen distance, if for instance the projectors were placed in front of the wheel. It also helps keep things clean in front of the driver. This is all key for the usability in other locations.

Final projector and screen aligments would all be made once the main seat and rear 'gubbins' structure are sorted, but in theory and in beta practice it all looks good.

SOUND

You'll turn in your grave, but the new Sony PS3 Wireless 7.1 headset came out recently, and i'm wondering if i even need a traditional surround sound set up?! It's not that i dont want it, i'm just thinking with my portability goal in mind, sound can be handeled well by these headphones. They are getting rave reviews in the US. I will however require some amplification for the tactile element i want to build into the seat. This is a certainty. I totaly agree with you. I think motion simulation would be good fun for a while but i would see myself actually turning it off at times just because it becomes annoying!

So this is why i found your thread. I'm keen to get a sense of direction/orientation with the tactile sound. It started off, before i read your thread, in just querying whether or not stereo buttkickers was possible. If your thread has tought me anything its that it is!! And i think i understand your set up from this perspective, but i still have a few queries.

I'm not going to even try and replicate your set up. It doesn't fit with my end goal. At a really basic level, i could just get a ButtKicker Gamer2 and stick it under the seat and run it off the bk amp. Done. Easy.

But i'm obvioulsy not going to do that am i! I'm looking for some solid, precise and immersive 'rumble'. So my initial thought was to get 2 mini buttkickers with 2 buttkicker amps and split the composite signal from the PS3, placing the BKs somewhere on the seat or frame but as far apart as possible in order to achieve a clear left right seperation.

My questions/queries:
  • Lack of audio control - Wind Noise is an issue in GT5 and i dont want the rumble to just take over. Iwant it to be really clear and precise when hitting rumble strips and changing gear and the like
  • overly aggressive rumble of the buttkicker without the balance of a complimentary transducer. should this be a real concern?
  • does a mini BK pack enough of a punch? or should i be thinking about 2 Advance Buttkicker
  • in some of your images it didn't look like there was phisically much of a seperation between the left and right mini buttkickers on the underside of the seat. With such little seperation do you still get a real sense of left and right tactile input (not factoring in the Clarkes)?

Apologiese if you already have done so, but can you explain why you have used the buttkickers where you have and why you have used the Clarks and Auras where you have?

From your experience and your knowledge in this area now, if you were in my shoes and were building a solid seat, but with portability in mind, what do you think would be your ideal set up, not necessarily from an audible audio perspective, but from an audio tactile perspective - Project R Lite, if you like!!

Sorry for going on a bit!! but there was a whole 3 years of development to comment on!! :)

Looking forward to seeing your project progress over the coming months and i'll of course give you an update on mine when ready.

Cheers


James

PS

Have, but not fully configured yet:

Entry Level Cobra racing seat
G25
3PS3's
3Acer H5360's

Want:
F1 Playseat (any thoughts? i'm thinking it might not feel right on long stints)
Tactile set up
Clutch/Brake pedal adapter to give more brake pedal resistance. Not fussed on losing the clutch function at this point.
 
Latte, I have ordered 3 Aura Pro, 2 Clarc TST209 and 1 Clarc TST239 Silver today :)
Planning to shake the place, hehe.
 
Thanks guys.

Big welcome to "jbishop60" the new member above, that has to be probably one of the longest 1st posts Ive ever read. Interesting to hear what your doing so plese create thread here of your own rig to show us and I will certainly help you out with your tactile. Thanks you for your comments and please PM me sometime over your tactile queries. The spacing under the seat was limited, I havnt shown the latest updates which allows the tactile units underneath to specifically enchance the whole right/left side underneath the seat. You will find testing is the best way to determine whats going to work in your own configuration.

iloniom.
Nice going look forward to your comments.
Shake it up baby now :)
 
I think he should of stated "Project r" :)

Its great to see some new members with great rigs and all of us able to appreciate what each is doing.
 
Nothing compares to what Latte is doing, haven't seen anything quite like this project anywhere. This was a great inspiration for me and I appreciate what Latte is doing.

We are fathers that like cars and the PROCESS of making our new toys. This keeps us going and busy and my daughter likes it too :)
 
Well Ive seen some superb cockpits with some serious hardware.
For me a lot of importance is the look and quite often many cockpits or d.i.y projects I see people doing they put very little imagination or effort into the appearance.

Okay everyone has different requirements and some maybe just want something thats practical which is the only main concern perhaps for them. I want this to look visually impressive to match the hardware.

This Sunday is a big moment for the cockpits future.
I will be testing GT5 in 3D via 2x Optoma GT750 projectors. I just do not know if DLP 3D glasses technology can sync with more than one 3D projector at a time.

I hold out hope as the multiscreens are outputing the same source image and framerate. The signal for the glasses is transmitted in between the video fields of the 3D display.
 
I`ve been going through this thread now (took a couple of hours...:) ).
And "Mr Latte" i have to say... YOUR MY BIGGEST IDOL EVER AND ALWAYS!! Words are not enough, my god its inspiring!!! 👍 👍 👍 :bowdown: :D :P :bowdown: :gtpflag: :cheers:
 
Hey Latte, nice project!

Just wondering, would you ever consider a motion-cockpit? Maybe something like this?

Anyway, keep up the good work 👍
 
Hey Latte, nice project!

Just wondering, would you ever consider a motion-cockpit? Maybe something like this?

Anyway, keep up the good work 👍

That is completely over-the-top and unrealistic. Might be fun but it's not accurate... :)

I'm thinking about motion for my cockpit but it certainly won't be anything like that. Barf bag anyone? :yuck:
 
That is completely over-the-top and unrealistic. Might be fun but it's not accurate... :)

I'm thinking about motion for my cockpit but it certainly won't be anything like that. Barf bag anyone? :yuck:

Have you tryed it? may look over the top and unrealistic but I wouldnt class it that way if I hadnt tryed it first... Ever saw the Greger Huttu real track day experience... Barf bag Greger????
 
That is completely over-the-top and unrealistic. Might be fun but it's not accurate... :)

I'm thinking about motion for my cockpit but it certainly won't be anything like that. Barf bag anyone? :yuck:

The guy explains that its set on high settings to show what it's capable of, i suppose if you were driving an F1 car that it would have a similar effect with all the g-forces.
 
You are joking post above...

Ferrari use a massive building for their simulator and its still on 2g ish
 
LOL I see... So this is more like the mclaren simulator which replicared the speed of the direction changea but not the g forces.

Sorry
 
Have you tryed it? may look over the top and unrealistic but I wouldnt class it that way if I hadnt tryed it first... Ever saw the Greger Huttu real track day experience... Barf bag Greger????


So, to use your argument; have you tried it?
 
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