Shadows are not that bad, really

[SuperShouden]

Whilst playing Uncharted 2, I noticed that the shadows in that game are just as jagged and nasty as GT5. Anyone ever consider that the shadows are as good as they're gonna get on the PS3 without reducing graphics?

 

[Metfanant]

GT5 shadows in UC2??...really??...

come on man...defend Polyphony all you want...but when it comes to pushing the PS3 hardware to its limits Naughty Dog will beat PD down like a red headed stepchild...

 

[Sephy]

Actually I was thinking about the shadows the other day. I was playing Heavy Rain and Killzone 3 and both have noticeably jaggy shadows (although they don't get anywhere near as bad as in GT5) but I thought it was funny how I just never noticed these things until GT5.

 

[SuperShouden]

GT5 shadows in UC2??...really??...

come on man...defend Polyphony all you want...but when it comes to pushing the PS3 hardware to its limits Naughty Dog will beat PD down like a red headed stepchild...

Those are stationary shadows. I notice that when a shadow moved across Drake, it was jaggy. And those are dynamic shadows. And the static shadows in GT5 are pretty smooth too, the dynamic ones can be jagged or jerky. Two different things. A static shadow can really be drawn into the inviroment. But, then you need shadows to move across a body or dash and those need to be animated.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

It's funny how I've grown accustomed to the shadow issues. They used to bug me but now I barely notice them.

But what's really at issue is this is a step backwards. GT3 and GT4's shadows were never an issue, because there is nothing to notice. They're just shadows. I've gone back to GT4 here and there, and I'm always noticing shadows in this game now, mostly because they do look so flawless in comparison to GT5.

I understand that to have rain, next-gen lighting effects, etc, PD had to make a sacrifice because these extra effects caused issues with shadowing. Personally, I'd rather have rain, sunsets, snow, etc. than not have them. I've been waiting for atmospheric effects in Gran Turismo for YEARS.

 

[Metfanant]

Those are stationary shadows. I notice that when a shadow moved across Drake, it was jaggy. And those are dynamic shadows. And the static shadows in GT5 are pretty smooth too, the dynamic ones can be jagged or jerky. Two different things. A static shadow can really be drawn into the inviroment. But, then you need shadows to move across a body or dash and those need to be animated.

look...if you're actually going to defend GT5 to the point where you're going to try and bring down the most visually impressive game on any console anywhere...I'm not even going to continue the discussion...

those shadows are only "static" in the sense that its a screen shot, otherwise they would be moving, Uncharted uses just as much dynamic lighting (probably more) than GT5 does...

im not denying that there are jagged shadows in UC2...they are there..

But...

one of the two games is the overall more impressive visual package...we can just leave it at that...

It's funny how I've grown accustomed to the shadow issues. They used to bug me but now I barely notice them.

But what's really at issue is this is a step backwards. GT3 and GT4's shadows were never an issue, because there is nothing to notice. They're just shadows. I've gone back to GT4 here and there, and I'm always noticing shadows in this game now, mostly because they do look so flawless in comparison to GT5.

I understand that to have rain, next-gen lighting effects, etc, PD had to make a sacrifice because these extra effects caused issues with shadowing. Personally, I'd rather have rain, sunsets, snow, etc. than not have them. I've been waiting for atmospheric effects in Gran Turismo for YEARS.

it has much more to do with the more resource intensive dynamic lighting solutions that GT5 is employing then them scaling things back to make room for the weather..

 

[SuperShouden]

I am trying to make the point that GT5 isn't the only game that has those jagged shadows.

 

[JJ72]

It's one thing to be content with GT5's shadow but another to drag other games down for the sake of defending it.

 

[Negrumir]

I am trying to make the point that GT5 isn't the only game that has those jagged shadows.

I think everyone's aware of that.

End of discussion?

 

[Metfanant]

I am trying to make the point that GT5 isn't the only game that has those jagged shadows.

yes, that is true...unfortunately GT5's are just much worse

 

[PAWEL17]

Its the playstation, it has no anti-aliasing. Thats why people say games on xbox look better. Its all in the shadows.

 

[Metfanant]

Its the playstation, it has no anti-aliasing. Thats why people say games on xbox look better. Its all in the shadows.

please don't talk about things when you have no idea what you're saying...

 

[PAWEL17]

please don't talk about things when you have no idea what you're saying...

Okay then, i'm sorry, then why does the xbox have smooth shadows, unlike the ps3??

 

[Metfanant]

Okay then, i'm sorry, then why does the xbox have smooth shadows, unlike the ps3??

it all comes down to how the developers implement certain functions in their game engines, and how they utilize each respective console's resources...

in regards to GT5...unfortunately Polyphony, like many of the Japanese developers this generation have fallen behind in their ability to really bring out the best of the console's hardware...

- not all PS3 games have jagged shadows
- not all 360 games have smooth shadows
- both consoles are perfectly capable of anti-aliasing

 

[PAWEL17]

it all comes down to how the developers implement certain functions in their game engines, and how they utilize each respective console's resources...

in regards to GT5...unfortunately Polyphony, like many of the Japanese developers this generation have fallen behind in their ability to really bring out the best of the console's hardware...

- not all PS3 games have jagged shadows
- not all 360 games have smooth shadows
- both consoles are perfectly capable of anti-aliasing

Yes, well games that are on both consoles, the xbox strongly outperforms the ps3 on shadowing. Also, if that is so, i wonder why the most important part of The GT5 graphics, the bad shadows are not smooth, why would PD spend all this time, and not get that right.

 

[Stoffinator]

They are for sure worse in GT5. They don't look anywhere near as bad in any other game that I've played.

 

[Metfanant]

Yes, well games that are on both consoles, the xbox strongly outperforms the ps3 on shadowing.

again, not always...you're generalizing...the PS3 and 360 use very different hardware and need to be developed for differently...there are multiplatform games on both consoles that have better shadows than the other...

Also, if that is so, i wonder why the most important part of The GT5 graphics, the bad shadows are not smooth, why would PD spend all this time, and not get that right.

there are a few reasons why the shadows in GT5 suck...

- Polyphony's insistence on "1080p" if PD would have stuck with a native 720p resolution it could have freed up quite a bit of resources

- 60fps: This is one that is very important for the game so im glad they stuck to it, but cutting the framerate in half would have GREATLY increased resources available for other areas...

- insanely detailed car models: Those premium cars take up a lot of the PS3's resources

- GT5's intensive lighting model: there is a reason the lighting in GT5 is so good...it takes up a lot of resources

- There are better developers than PD: Sony has other develoepers that could teach Kaz and his team a thing or two about the PS3

- The long development cycle of GT5: You would think this would help, but in reality it can hurt just as much. When it takes you so long to make something, by the time its done, the stuff you were working on 5 years ago is completely outdated

 

[PAWEL17]

again, not always...you're generalizing...the PS3 and 360 use very different hardware and need to be developed for differently...there are multiplatform games on both consoles that have better shadows than the other...

there are a few reasons why the shadows in GT5 suck...

- Polyphony's insistence on "1080p" if PD would have stuck with a native 720p resolution it could have freed up quite a bit of resources

- 60fps: This is one that is very important for the game so im glad they stuck to it, but cutting the framerate in half would have GREATLY increased resources available for other areas...

- insanely detailed car models: Those premium cars take up a lot of the PS3's resources

- GT5's intensive lighting model: there is a reason the lighting in GT5 is so good...it takes up a lot of resources

- There are better developers than PD: Sony has other develoepers that could teach Kaz and his team a thing or two about the PS3

- The long development cycle of GT5: You would think this would help, but in reality it can hurt just as much. When it takes you so long to make something, by the time its done, the stuff you were working on 5 years ago is completely outdated

Oh okay, i just would of thought the ps3 could of handled it, but i guess not.

 

[Metfanant]

Oh okay, i just would of thought the ps3 could of handled it, but i guess not.

its hard to say...as we dont know the inner workings of the GT5 game engine or how efficiently PD is using the SPE's of the cell processor...my guess though is that there are A LOT of things they could learn from some of Sony's other first party developers like Guerrilla Games, Naughty Dog, and Santa Monica Studios...

all three of those studios have created games that have better overall visual packages than GT5...

The PS3 has shown that its exclusive games are the best looking out there...particularly the Uncharted and Killzone series...GT5 is the best looking racer out there, but there are A LOT of problems with GT5 (shadows, frame rate issues, screen tearing) that lead me to believe that the GT5 engine is just not very optimized when compared to the offerings of some of the other top Sony developers...

as far as GT6 is concerned...if its going to be on the PS3...

- i would seriously consider starting with a 720p native resolution and dumping the 1280x1080 mode...if they want to use 1080p for the menus and replays, then fine...but for gameplay stick with 1280x720 and be done with it

- then i would change the AA solution over to Sony's MLAA which uses the cell processor to do AA instead of the video card...that would free up a lot of resources on the video card for other things

 

[Leicht]

lol

 

[SuperShouden]

I think the shadows only seem worse 'cause they're in your face a lot. I mean, if you use the cockpit, then you're gonna be looking at jagged shadows a lot. Seemed that UC1's jagged shadows were just as bad, but you very rarely get to see them.

In fact most games with the jagged shadows usually do a good job if hiding them. But...there's nothing really PD can do about the jagged shadows in GT5. I mean the physics engine, the graphics and a several other things take up a lot of memory and power. And that's pretty much PD's view on it. There was other things they were concerned about, they knew about the shadows, and not would the fix be incredibly time consuming but it'd probably require taking away some other aspect of it. But, now that I know that other games have jagged shadows, it's not so bad.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

Hay guys, if this apple doesn't have jagged shadows, why does your orange have them?

Different game engines, different game genres = different requirements = apples and oranges.

 

[alucard0712]

It doesn't matter that they are better than in some games. They are much worse than in GT5 Prologue - it's all that matters, because we saw it better and no one wants to go step down in graphics after 3 more years. Shadows in GT5 are very important graphics and impression element because shadows is a part of lighting system, which is best ever in GT5. Sooo...I wan't them back!

 

[SuperShouden]

its hard to say...as we dont know the inner workings of the GT5 game engine or how efficiently PD is using the SPE's of the cell processor...my guess though is that there are A LOT of things they could learn from some of Sony's other first party developers like Guerrilla Games, Naughty Dog, and Santa Monica Studios...

all three of those studios have created games that have better overall visual packages than GT5...

The PS3 has shown that its exclusive games are the best looking out there...particularly the Uncharted and Killzone series...GT5 is the best looking racer out there, but there are A LOT of problems with GT5 (shadows, frame rate issues, screen tearing) that lead me to believe that the GT5 engine is just not very optimized when compared to the offerings of some of the other top Sony developers...

as far as GT6 is concerned...if its going to be on the PS3...

- i would seriously consider starting with a 720p native resolution and dumping the 1280x1080 mode...if they want to use 1080p for the menus and replays, then fine...but for gameplay stick with 1280x720 and be done with it

- then i would change the AA solution over to Sony's MLAA which uses the cell processor to do AA instead of the video card...that would free up a lot of resources on the video card for other things

1. Think of each Premium car as part of a level in Uncharted 2. about 2 or 3 of those cars probably has the same amount of detail and polygons. And there are over 200 of them. Then you add on top of that 800 standard cars and tracks.

2. Making a action adventure game and making a racing game are two completely things.

3. Doesn't the 1080p resolution only consume power if you have a 1080p TV? I don't I have a standard def TV.

4. They could only use the Cell processor for AA if it's not being used up. I mean, they've got lighting, car physics, tire physics, premium level detail, standard level detail....you also have to keep in mind that GT5 has over 1000 colors which would also consume power room. It would definitely chew up the graphics card power.dividing all that up isn't an easy task. And to be perfectly honest, if I were making GT5, thinking about everything that went into it, shadows would probably be pretty low on the list. And with 5 years and around $80million already sunk into it, another year and more money to fix some shadows would also seem like a waste of time and energy when the rest of the game is finished.

 

[Metfanant]

1. Think of each Premium car as part of a level in Uncharted 2. about 2 or 3 of those cars probably has the same amount of detail and polygons. And there are over 200 of them. Then you add on top of that 800 standard cars and tracks.

that is completely irrelevant...the PS3 only has to render what is on screen at any given time...there could be 1000 premium cars in the game and that would make ZERO difference to what im talking about

2. Making a action adventure game and making a racing game are two completely things.

yes, this is obviously true. Not sure what you're trying to say here. I hope you're not trying to say GT5 has better graphics than Uncharted 2 or Killzone 3 however...

3. Doesn't the 1080p resolution only consume power if you have a 1080p TV? I don't I have a standard def TV.

the game is still built around a native resolution, and has to be rendered as such. It is then up to the PS3 to scale the visuals to wherever they need to go...

4. They could only use the Cell processor for AA if it's not being used up. I mean, they've got lighting, car physics, tire physics, premium level detail, standard level detail....

you're really not understanding how these things work...

The Cell processor has a single core (The PPU) and then a series of 8 SPU's that work together with the main core....on the PS3 one SPU is totally disabled, and another is reserved for the PS3's operating system and security features...leaving 6 for the developers to do whatever they want with...

The way Sony's MLAA implementation works is that you dedicate a single SPU to work on AA. Freeing up the video card to do other things that would normally have to wait while it smooths edges...

The SPU's are EXTREMELY good at these types of tasks (MUCH better than the PS3's RSX video card)...

you also have to keep in mind that GT5 has over 1000 colors which would also consume power room. It would definitely chew up the graphics card power.

No, the number of cars that the game has (i assume you meant cars not colors) has ZERO impact on this discussion. The only thing that makes a difference is what is being displayed on the PS3 at any given time...there could be 100,000 premium cars included in the game and it would make no difference...

dividing all that up isn't an easy task.

of course not...

And to be perfectly honest, if I were making GT5, thinking about everything that went into it, shadows would probably be pretty low on the list. And with 5 years and around $80million already sunk into it, another year and more money to fix some shadows would also seem like a waste of time and energy when the rest of the game is finished.

agreed, however things like frame rate studders, screen tearing, terrible transparency effects (the awful pixelation caused by weather/smoke, PS2 level modeling on the standard cars, PS2 level detail on some tracks (Laguna) are also sub-par on GT5....these things all are evidence that GT5 is a rather poorly optimized game...

 

[-=DV=-]

Yes, well games that are on both consoles, the xbox strongly outperforms the ps3 on shadowing.

This is a generalisation. and GENERALLY, Multiplats are developed on the x360, then ported to the ps3. Reason being the x360 is both the easiest to dev for and the least powerful. So it is easier to port to the ps3, and the extra power of the ps3 makes up for the lack of optimization with a title that is not dev'd specifically for the system.

 

[Metfanant]

This is a generalisation. and GENERALLY, Multiplats are developed on the x360, then ported to the ps3. Reason being the x360 is both the easiest to dev for and the least powerful.

yes, the 360 is easier to develop for, but saying its the "least powerful" is also a generalization...both consoles have the same amount of RAM, and the 360's video card is better than the PS3's...

So it is easier to port to the ps3, and the extra power of the ps3 makes up for the lack of optimization with a title that is not dev'd specifically for the system.

the opposite is actually true here...because the PS3 is so different than the 360, it suffers when games are made for the 360 and ported, because to actually USE to power of the PS3 games have to be coded very differently...

multiplatform games translate better when they are lead developed on the PS3, and ported to the 360 because less optimization is needed. Games that are absolutely identical on both systems are usually led on the PS3...

 

[Big Ron]

You can find jaggy shadows in every game, which tries to reproduce area shadows (shadows, which blur out in distance) to imitate natural lightning.

Area shadows are defined in resolution like textures, so they are limited or even faster limited than high-res-textures, because they need more processing capacity.

 

[snicker3s]

Gt5p and UC2 have better shadows because time (and position of the sun) stay the same. This way a lot of the shadow calculations can be done on beforehand, stored in memory and used when necessary.

In gt5 the sun moves, shadows change a little bit every frame, and have to be recaclulated every time on the fly... To be able to do this they needed to downsize shadow quality.

So in short we pay some shadow quality, but we get the magic of dusk at Nurby. Taking this in mind I can live with those shadows easily.

PS: I am not a PD programmer, everything above are assumptions, but bigger and wronger assumptions have already been made in this thread

 

[Skiddy]

What jaggy shadows?