Shumacher Poll

[Peter]

Well, Schumacher has complained about understeer on the car, and he prefers a sharp handling car. Sooner or later, he will improve.

 

[Ardius]

Well, Schumacher has complained about understeer on the car, and he prefers a sharp handling car. Sooner or later, he will improve.

But the old Schumacher would drive around such problems and still push the car to the limit...

 

[BlacqueJacques]

But the old Schumacher would drive around such problems and still push the car to the limit...

Maybe that is just it; he is older now with less 'fire'

 

[Fastas]

Maybe that is just it; he is older now with less 'fire'

I understand what you are saying but really, do you believe this?

The guy won 7 (seven) world titles and earned more money in his career than I did last year

What possible motivation would he have to come back if he knew he wasn't going to cut it? I don't believe he would sacrifice his statistical achievements and more importantly, the safety of the other drivers, just for a jolly outing.

 

[Ardius]

Well, he probably thought he could cut it, but when push comes to shove, he's not as inspired behind the wheel. I also think he missed the atmosphere of F1, the joy of driving the cars and probably realised how much he didn't appreciate it the first time around. Maybe his absolute focus on being competitive in his earlier years meant he didn't really enjoy it as much as he may be doing now?

I'm sure he can drive the car fast if its setup a bit more to his liking, but Schumacher didn't need to have that before and thats what makes me think he just he's lost his killer instinct.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Schui wants to win I am sure, but he is 41 and I would not be surprised to learn his neck injury is a 'sore spot' so to speak.

Being almost 50 years of age and with some younger days football (a la CFL and NFL) and hockey injuries, which never go away

I'd still reserve any judgement until after the season is over

 

[Fastas]

Schui wants to win I am sure, but he is 41 and I would not be surprised to learn his neck injury is a 'sore spot' so to speak.

Being almost 50 years of age and with some younger days football (a la CFL and NFL) and hockey injuries, which never go away

I'd still reserve any judgement until after the season is over

To add a little perspective to it; Damon Hill, World Champion, aged 36, Alain Prost, World Champion, aged 38, Nigel Mansell, World Champion, aged 39.

Ken, you have an outside chance 👍

Dan.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Thanks Dan, but I would be too slow; would not want to be a moving chicane ;nor embarrass Canadian racing fans

 

[F1 fan]

Maybe Jacques Villeneuve should take his place ?

Yeah, I am a fan of both Villeneuves! 👍

Doesn't Jacques Villeneuve Sr get any love around here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Villeneuve_(elder)

To be fair, Senna didn't take Damon Hill out .

He did take out Alain Prost. What was that? An "accident"?

This race is most famous (or rather infamous) for its first corner incident involving world championship contenders Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna. Senna secured the pole, but was unhappy with the side of the track it was situated on, claiming that pole should always be on the racing line. He and Gerhard Berger then went to the Japanese stewards, to request a change of position of pole. The stewards initially agreed but an injunction by FISA president Jean Marie Balestre later that night rejected the decision. After this, Senna vowed that if Prost (starting second) got the advantage into the first corner, which most were sure he would, he would never make it into the first corner. This was exactly what happened come race day at the start, with Senna ramming Prost off the track at break-neck speeds into the gravel and the tire barriers. The crash meant that Senna had clinched the drivers' championship for a second time, as with one race left in the season, Prost could not overtake his points tally. The result also meant that McLaren-Honda clinched the Constructor's Championship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Japanese_Grand_Prix.

Now, I don't want to patronise, as I'm sure you're aware of this, and the incident the year before at suzuka. All i'm saying is that it's easy to critisize Michael, but when you think about it, he was just copying formula one's recent greats. They both did it, but everyone critisizes Michael like he was some comedy bond villain and turns a blind eye to Alain and their beloved Senna... Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of senna, but like Michael and Alain, he was far from perfect.

 

[Ardius]

He did take out Alain Prost. What was that? An "accident"?

I meant that I have personal bias against Schumacher for taking out Damon.

And I recall that Prost took Senna out first, not the other way around .
Anyway, Senna had many qualities which endeared to me more than Schumacher did and I will happily accept that his death has somewhat elevated my opinion of him among other things. As much as Senna cheated, he also showed his human side, such as his tribute to Roland. I am more willing to overlook Senna's cheat side because of this.
Whereas Schumacher is a little less emotional, ok, he can be emotional but he clearly isn't the same as Senna.

Anyway, it was you who turned this thread onto Senna/Prost debates. I never mentioned how Schumacher was any better than Senna for this, just that I particularly disliked Schumacher's tactics through his career.

 

[Dan_]

I meant that I have personal bias against Schumacher for taking out Damon.

And I recall that Prost took Senna out first, not the other way around .

As I have personal bias against Prost for taking Senna out too....He just gave Prost a payback.

In 1989, Imola, Senna didn't accomplished his part on an agreement made by the team, which determined no one would pass the teammate on the first two laps of the race, if the teammate was the pole-position, Senna overtake Prost, then in Suzuka, Prost threw his car on Senna's, Prost left the race and Senna won, but the stewards disqualified him and Prost won the championship in advance.

In 1990, Senna is the pole position in Suzuka, but is obligated to start from the dirty side of the track ( Prost was the 2nd and starts from the clean side of the track ), Prost starts the race better, but Senna takes the first corner at full speed and crash into Prost, Senna is the world champion.

Both of them were talented drivers, and both were very aggressive too, as Hamilton and Alonso are.


EDIT: Almost forgot, I voted for #1, he didn't get the proper feel of the car yet. Also, he's not fit as when he stopped racing, he's older and that makes a huge difference when absurd G-forces are smashing all your organs.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Apparently Brawn screwed up the weight distribution (and relationship to narrower front tyres), according to F1 news.

 

[L.Hamilton]

I think people tend to overrate him

 

[Fastas]

snip...............Anyway, Senna had many qualities which endeared to me more than Schumacher did and I will happily accept that his death has somewhat elevated my opinion of him among other things. As much as Senna cheated, he also showed his human side, such as his tribute to Roland. I am more willing to overlook Senna's cheat side because of this.
Whereas Schumacher is a little less emotional, ok, he can be emotional but he clearly isn't the same as Senna..........snip

I don't think that's fair or true. For one, you must have seen the footage of the post race press conference when a journalist pointed out to Schumi that he had beaten Senna's race wins tally (or was it Championships?).

The guy was crying like a little girl who's pet rabbit just died.

 

[Ardius]

I don't think that's fair or true. For one, you must have seen the footage of the post race press conference when a journalist pointed out to Schumi that he had beaten Senna's race wins tally (or was it Championships?).

The guy was crying like a little girl who's pet rabbit just died.

Indeed, but in my opinion, Schumacher never came across that way to me. I don't know how to describe it effectively. But basically Schumacher isn't the same personality Senna was.
Perhaps it is also that I was very young when Senna was still alive.

 

[Small_Fryz]

have a look on youtube for michael and Mika Häkkinen, he had quite a lot of respect and showed emotion towards him often after races and on podiums

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Indeed, but in my opinion, Schumacher never came across that way to me. I don't know how to describe it effectively.

Schumacher is German and Senna was Brazilian.

 

[Peter]

have a look on youtube for michael and Mika Häkkinen, he had quite a lot of respect and showed emotion towards him often after races and on podiums

Schumacher said it himself, that Hakkinen was the only rival in his carer he was really afraid of.

 

[Seismica]

Schumacher said it himself, that Hakkinen was the only rival in his carer he was really afraid of.

Isn't that just something James May made up on Top Gear?

Anyways... I found this interesting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A67181510

Except... isn't the updated chassis only for Michael's car? It was used in testing also and they think it suits his driving style more, as evidently he has had problems both in the wet and dry. But Rosberg seems fairly content with his car. It is also probably that they have completely different set ups due to different driving styles, so updating both cars just because one driver wasn't happy doesn't make sense. I'm sure any Aero upgrades will be the same for both cars though, they can adjust those to suit the balance of the car anyway.

Before Schumi was approached by Mercedes I seem to remember reading something about him testing for Ferrari (Don't think it was related to his return to his Ferrari to stand in for Massa, I think it was later than that). Maybe the cars are just completely different now to what he was used to.

Anyway, we will see when testing for the Spanish GP starts.

 

[F1 fan]

I meant that I have personal bias against Schumacher for taking out Damon.

Ahh... I have no "british loyalty"... Maybe that explains why... Although my mum was born in Germany. I was a fan of DC though...

And I recall that Prost took Senna out first, not the other way around .

I know... I even stated that in my post... I don't think it was a good way for any of them to behave... Nor was Schumacher crashing into Villeneuve and Hill... Or stopping at Monaco during qualifying... This debate could go on forever. It's easy for me to say you're biased towards Senna, but I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that I was biased towards Michael... So, we're both right in our respective ways. Let's call it a truce.

Anyway, Senna had many qualities which endeared to me more than Schumacher did and I will happily accept that his death has somewhat elevated my opinion of him among other things. As much as Senna cheated, he also showed his human side, such as his tribute to Roland. I am more willing to overlook Senna's cheat side because of this.
Whereas Schumacher is a little less emotional, ok, he can be emotional but he clearly isn't the same as Senna.

His tribute to Roland was quite special... I mean, even I liked and have huge respect for Senna... I certainly didn't hate the guy, and was very upset when he died. Same goes for Roland... I always liked the story that Max Mosley went to Roland's funeral instead of Senna's... I think they were held within a few days of each other... Everyone opted to go to Ayrton's. I think Max said something along the lines of "I felt someone had to go to Roland's funeral"... Just goes to show, even Adolf Hitler's presence at your parent's wedding doesn't make for a complete B****** of a son.

Anyway, it was you who turned this thread onto Senna/Prost debates. I never mentioned how Schumacher was any better than Senna for this, just that I particularly disliked Schumacher's tactics through his career.

Yeah, I started it... Just sticking up for my hero...

I never actually watched the 94 san marino gp... I was 6 at the time. My dad wouldn't let me watch it due to Barrichello's crash and Roland Ratzenberger's death... I guess it was a good decision. It would probably have affected me quite badly had i been watching the race live.

I don't think that's fair or true. For one, you must have seen the footage of the post race press conference when a journalist pointed out to Schumi that he had beaten Senna's race wins tally (or was it Championships?).

The guy was crying like a little girl who's pet rabbit just died.

Yeah... He is human... Lol

I think people tend to overrate him

Sure... People do overrate the most succesful racing driver of all time... I mean, his records will probably never be topped, not even by the likes of Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Vettel...

People overrate Schumacher just like they underrate me, Winner of 1000's of (*cough virtual)Grand Prix and 100's of titles...

Not to mention the fact that he is #1 on the list of total wins... If he was to win just one more grand prix, he would equal the combined total of #2 (Alain Prost 51 wins) and #3 (Ayrton Senna 41 wins)... Sure "overrated".

 

[Seismica]

Sure... People do overrate the most succesful racing driver of all time... I mean, his records will probably never be topped, not even by the likes of Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Vettel..

👍

I wouldn't say people are over-rating him, I just think people are expecting too much of him, everyone is expecting him to live up to his former self. When was the last time he won a title, 2004? In 2006 he didn't win until his 4th race, and he went on to come second in the championship. In 2005 he only won once, at Indianapolis, and that was the year when only the Bridgestone supplied teams ran. Yeah, he hasn't just been away from F1 for three seasons, he hasn't been a world champion in 6 years. Everyone expected him to be a front runner right from the start.

We all know Mercedes is the least competitive of the top 4 teams. He needs to find his feet, so 8th place or lower and he's doing badly.

Lets have a look, in Bahrain he finished 6th, not bad at all. In Australia he was taken off at turn 1 and it damaged his front wing (And was basically last and had to make the places back), he finished 10th place, not bad at all. In Malaysia he had a wheelnut failure, not his fault. In China he was having problems with traction, even in the dry. So when the rain started, he didn't have a chance and finished 10th. Whether it was a setup problem with his car or a general problem with the car design, we do not know, it didn't appear as though Rosberg had the same problems so I would bet on the former.

Anyway, we will see as the season unfolds whether he still has the potential to become a world champion... Again.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Wait and see...

 

[Peter]

Schumacher will win 1 race this year at least. Rosberg will win about 2.

 

[Radracing]

Schu lacks energy to return to top form - Mika Hakkinen

http://www.worldcarfans.com/110043025956/schu-lacks-energy-to-return-to-top-form---hakkinen

 

[Radracing]

Looks like Schumacher is back on form. Comments anyone?

 

[Ardius]

At the expense of Rosberg it seems .
I disagree, he is not "on form", because he had to have his car fixed. As I've kept saying, old Schumi would drive around problems before, now he has to have Ross and his men fix it.
Plus, we have not seen the race yet .

 

[Greycap]

Funnily enough they "fixed" the car but Schumacher is still taking the 4th to 6th places just like before. Rosberg, on the other hand, has crashed from the podium to the leftover points. If that's progress to someone I don't know what's going on in the mind of the one who thinks so.

 

[Ardius]

Actually, they did make progress, but you have to remember its in terms of laptime and that all the teams made performance upgrades. So the car may be better but still be in the same position in races.
But either way, their upgrade wasn't particularly brilliant as they now appear to be even further off the pace. Schumacher was quite ordinary today, he simply put the car in the correct place each lap and Button had no chance of passing without an insane kamikaze move. It was a solid race, but he was way off the pace.

 

[The Outlaw]

Funnily enough they "fixed" the car but Schumacher is still taking the 4th to 6th places just like before. Rosberg, on the other hand, has crashed from the podium to the leftover points. If that's progress to someone I don't know what's going on in the mind of the one who thinks so.

That's incorrect. Schumacher's best finishing position prior to Spain was a 6th place at Bahrain. At both Australia and China he placed 10th, while at Malayasia he was a DNF casuality.

On another note, I think it is a bit early to assume that the new updates to the MGP W01 chassis have benefited Schuamcher at the expense of Rosberg. Why? Because first of all, there have been a lot of variables (rain & reliability issues) that have been thrown into the mix in the first few races which have made the results and strengths of certain teams and drivers a bit uncertain (and inflated in some cases) thus far. Some drivers (Button and Rosberg particularly) have been the beneficiaries of playing their cards better throughout the first four races, whether it be down to superior strategy calls because of some supreme knowledge when it comes to weather predictions, or just plain luck.

More importantly, it's difficult to determine how much the cars have developed in the past 3 weeks since China, and where the old-short wheel base Mercedes W01 chassis would perform relative to the new teams after they brought such large developments to Spain. That's great if Rosberg was faster than Schumacher in the old chassis, but what good is that if the old chassis is ULTIMATELY 3 tenths slower than the new one? Another thing worth mentioning is whether or not Schumacher really did have some type of issue with the chassis that had been damaged after the first few races. With all of this said I think we should wait a few races and let things play out (or until the end of the season) before writing off Rosberg after just one race or bad weekend.

 

[Radracing]

Considering Schumachers race results I think he is holding his own really well. It just won't be anything significant this year. I'm hoping they still give him a seat for next year and give him more time to show that he can still win races. He just needs a competitive car to win and Braun dosen't seem to have it this year. I guess Jenson made the right move.