So is it better to e.g. start 10th and finish 5th or start 6th and finish 5th in terms of DR ?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by ollyvass, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Foxis

    Foxis

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    If that is true, and door number = expected finish position as guessed by the DR system as a basis for points, then the point awarding would be messed up.

    So either of those two assumptions have to be incorrect....?
     
  2. machine1121

    machine1121

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    Door numbers are assigned based on the raw DR numbers, but PD didn't implement the sorting algorithm correctly, so C and D drivers get lower door numbers than they deserve.

    I wouldn't consider door numbers to be an expected finishing position. The more you play the more opportunities you have to raise your DR. It's more of a measure of your overall Sport Mode career. Qualifying position is a much better predictor of finishing order.

    I don't think anybody's completely figured how DR is awarded, but finishing position, number of positions gained/lost, and overall room strength all play a part in the DR that is gained or lost with each race.

    Starting 6th and finishing 5th is a strong room is probably better for your DR than starting 10th and finishing 5th in a weak room. However, your best chance to finish well is to qualify well.
     
  3. Foxis

    Foxis

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    But early in the thread someone asserted exactly that: Door numbers being your expected finish position. Finish above it = positive DR, below = negative.
    It has been mentioned several times in this thread and is also being used as reference in the thread about GTS stats.
     
  4. NommyNom

    NommyNom

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    This may have been stated earlier in the thread (not going to look, this post will just be reiterating) but you can look before the start of the race to see the expected points you could get for each finish position. Finish at that position and that's probably about how much you'll receive. How much this affects your DR? I am not sure, all I know is I average start/finish between 5th-10th and my DR does go up but verrrry slowly.
     
  5. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    I think it's unlikely to be correct, but it's an interesting theory. There could a bug in that part and not in the scoring part. When I had door number 12 in some races where at worst I should've finished 6th, and actually finished higher than that, I didn't notice a big increase in DR and it was about the same as a fairly similar race where I had door number 6. So the scoring didn't seem messed up.

    IF the door number is the same ordering as we saw on the out-of-order grid shown while loading in early versions, then the theory is incorrect, because that was more jumbled amongst the top half of the grid (DR S/A/B/C) than the bottom (D/E). (Unless they revert to showing us that again we may never know for sure if was door number order or not).

    My hunch is that the scoring isn't based on expected finish position per se, but more likely based on the ratings of those above and below. Say you're DR B and your expected finish position was 10th in a couple of races and you finish there, everybody above with the same ratings for each race, but one where all below you are close to your level vs the other where they are all DR D or E. You might gain more from beating the closer ones. So even if it calculates an expected finish position, it doesn't necessarily use it to calc the scores.

    If there is an expected finish position based on DR scores, then it's also your expected qualifying position - as good as an algorithm can gauge, anyway.
     
  6. John Crellin

    John Crellin

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    This explains DR pretty well and has fit with my experiences.

    I'll put money that door number is random since it doesn't mean anything or affect your race anyways. Plus if it's random everyone is stastically likely to be put into each position at some point.
     
  7. Mirror_man

    Mirror_man

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    Door Number??? What is that?? Where is that information when you enter the race???
     
  8. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

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    On your helmet, car door and car bonnet.

    I had a race the other day where there were 8 DR:A/DR:S drivers and I at DR:B had a door number of 7. Previously I was happy to accept that the numbers represented who had the most DR points.
     
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  9. ASH32

    ASH32

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    Something has gone wrong since the last update, I've also sometimes been matched with tons of D rated drivers when I'm S. This and the wrong driver number will likely be connected.
     
  10. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    To see it before the race, click to go into warm-up but don't apply any throttle. Some tracks you'll then be looking at the side of your car, and can see it. Otherwise, change to chase cam and look back at the bonnet.

    You post this just as I had come round to accepting that what @machine1121 has been saying is correct :lol:

    Do you have the replay, to see what numbers all those A/S drivers had?

    edit: oh, and what is your SR? I'm guessing S, in that company, but if it were B that could explain it.

    Only since 1.08, or since 1.07 when they changed the DR a bit? As a B, I've nearly always been matched with a mix of DRs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  11. machine1121

    machine1121

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    Have you used the tool to get your raw DR score? If you're close to 30000, I can think of some possibilities, but they would be impossible to prove without knowing the entire rooms DR scores.

    I've only based my door number theory on 5 races, so any data that contradicts it would be good to know.
     
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  12. ASH32

    ASH32

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    1.08, I was often a low number before but now it's seems very random, as does the rooms I'm getting put in, I'm sure it's connected. It's not all the time though just an intermittent issue which comes and goes.

    The update may not be the cause though as others are getting other issues with long load times and such, could be a server issue.
     
  13. Outspacer

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    OK. I didn't start habitually saving replays until recently, but should have a few from before that patch. I'll have a look this evening to see if they show up a change.

    It could well be connected, because it's reasonable to assume that the door number comes from the matchmaking code. Or maybe there's another bug, possibly related to what JacksHerer saw, which somehow gets something wrong with SR:S drivers sometimes.
     
  14. Mirror_man

    Mirror_man

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    MACHINE1 121 Thanks for that great Hint!!! The tool it´s a must!!!! :)

    Just one more question... Is there a way to know how the awarded points relate to what happens at the end of the race?? A correlation between your final position and the points that you are awarded (negative or positive) ???
     
  15. machine1121

    machine1121

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    I started a spreadsheet to track my own races. Others are also working on it. @Milouse is the genius that created the tool.

    The strength of the other players has a big influence on DR gained/lost. I've had 2 races where I started 4th and finished 8th. In the first I still gained 2 DR points (strong room, I made some mistakes). In the second I lost 144 DR points (weak room, I got punted). Situations like this make it hard to make predictions.

    Strong rooms and finishing equal or better to your qualifying position are the best things you can do to boost your DR score.
     
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  16. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

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    I saved the replay so I'll have a look later, although I don't recall it showing peoples DR:letter in the replays and the DR:S and DR:As were mixed around the rest of us who were all DR:B, everyone was SR:S.
    If thats the case, I'll take a screen shot before races in future.
     
  17. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    That's true, replay doesn't show any grid screen, which is a shame :(
     
  18. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Well I dug out a replay and starting grid screenshot from 24th Nov, and it had the same kind of pattern to the door numbers in it as we see nowadays in a mixed race. The order from 1 to 17 was CCCDDDBBBBBBBBBBBD. I was the first B, #7, and walked the race from pole :D
     
  19. ASH32

    ASH32

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    Looks like you got put in a C/D room, so they took the first six numbers, still likely in driver rating order as they were supposed to be there but then it had to still fill the room up with others, I guess the last D joined at the last minute. Maybe the issue here is not that there is not enough S/A/B drivers but not enough C/D drivers, especially at S safety rating so it has to drag others into their room sometimes, that would explain these freak occasions and why it happens to some more than others. :cheers:
     
  20. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Ah, no, I'd call it a fairly typical B room mix. The order fits exactly what machine1 121 says about it ordering the driver points as text - the first digit of a C driver is 4 thru 9, which is treated as higher than a B driver who has 1 or 2 as the first digit. Ds can start with any digit, so they can be anywhere in the list but statistically more likely to come ahead of Bs (if they are progressing). So the ordering of door numbers has been bugged at least since then, but probably since launch.

    Which means that if you've seen a change in the matchmaking, it (probably) isn't related to that bug directly... although it's possible they changed something and made the same mistake in a different bit of code. Hard to guess at. As a B when those patches came, I didn't notice any change.

    I just went up to A, and had a bunch of races that followed two distinctly different patterns - the first few were about half and half As and Bs really close in pace, then later I got a bunch of much more mixed races, As thru Ds, with only a tiny number of As. It wasn't a gradual change between the two styles so it didn't seem like it was due to falling numbers, but it's possible the matchmaking saw there were fewer players at some point and decided to switch style. It's just as likely that it switches style on some other criteria, or even randomly. But I can say it certainly still seems to have (at least) two styles it will use since the patches.
     
  21. Janval22

    Janval22

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    Haven't really paid much attention to it really, since I haven't been racing in sport mode that much. Like you say, isn't always easy to get game time right when the races are with kids and everything!

    However, I don't think my ratings have lowered since the start, I picked up racing this week (only did one for fun the first day I had the game before that). Have done four races this week and currently half way up from D rating. My SR has been B all along.
     
  22. Factor41

    Factor41

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    I think the trouble I've had is that I've raced loads on Lago Maggiore and Dragon Trail to the point that I'm faster on them, relative to the players at my DR level, than I am at most other circuits. I was over half way up level B and able to come top 5 at Maggiore, even in a car chosen for enjoyment over outright pace, but then I'd do a race at Alsace, Suzuka or the American Wasteland where I'd had less track time, and be waaay off the pace. For the system to be really effective at all circuits, it needs to be based on your performance across all circuits, but since there are only a handful and some of them are rubbish, people will tend to stick to their favourites. I'm making an effort to do more of the random Sport races now and my DR is dropping, so I should be well above group pace when Maggiore rolls around again.
    I agree with this - if you get put in a room at a quiet period with a spread of player ratings, beating a high ranked player, or losing to a low ranked player should have more effect than being in a room of closely ranked players and coming *anywhere* in that pack.
     
  23. Solstice93

    Solstice93

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    It seems like DR usually increases the most when you beat opponents that are a higher DR than you; I'm about 80% through DR A and the most noticeable DR gains are when I beat a S rated player. Beating players of the same DR rank only makes a smaller increase in comparison.
     
  24. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    At risk of driving everybody mad - I’m still totally confused re door numbers and would like to know;

    1 Do we know the significance of the door number and how it is assigned?

    2 How do I know my door number before the race other than by selecting chase view on the grid and looking back? - even then some cars have no number on the bonnet.

    3 Is door number a factor in how much DR I gain or lose in a race?

    My apologies if there are already posts with this info in. Believe me, I’ve tried to find it!
     
  25. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

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    deleted by me.
     
  26. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    Or am I being stupid - and the answer is we don’t know and are all trying to work it out ?
     
  27. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    The best is to race your best and with as few contacts or mistakes as possible and the system will place you among drivers with similar skills to yours as the system was designed to do.

    The DR and SR ratings were not designed to be an advancement or accomplishment as such but a tool for the game to closely match racers for good racing.

    By doing your best you will end up where you should be.
     
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  28. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    Yeah I get that but I’d just like to understand it - also with the game only counting wins, the advancement is some other reward. Maybe if the game kept count of other things like podium places, or top three qualifying times etc it would help. Fact is I don’t win much but I do get better and it would be nice to have that measured in some way.
     
  29. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    No. It seems to relate to the ranking of your DR points score within the lobby, but it does not always seem to be the case (although this is difficult to check, as you need to check everyone's DR points before the race to confirm... which is exceptionally difficult to do). It is definitely not related to the time or order you entered the lobby.
    It should be shown on your helmet and car door/boot in the matchmaking screen. Other than that and checking your car out in practice or on the rolling grid - in the race it usually appears on your car's doors, bonnet and boot - you cannot see it before the race.

    Sometimes it is hard to see, but it is usually clear after the race in the screen that shows your result. And of course it will always be visible in the replay.

    Possibly. I have seen some very strong correlation between the number and the DR points I gain and lose beyond that which I'd expect from my position alone. Can I be certain of it? Nope.
     
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  30. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    Thanks for that, very comprehensive reply. I don’t know if it’s relevant but so far im only in daily races. What got me thinking about it was recently having door number 1 but was I think 5th or 6th on the grid.